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A comment on Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job. Parent comment

Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by etjossem on Saturday May 13, 2017 @03:30PM (#14332568)
This suggestion is mainly directed at newcomers to the industry, who may not have the reputation or experience to be able to credibly push back on many points of their employment agreement. Once you're in a seller's market for your level of skill (as I'm sure you are), you don't need this advice anymore and I'd encourage you not to let your employer restrict your moonlight projects. But particularly if it's your first job, you may have to make concessions - for some folks, "if you want a paycheck, sign here" is a reality.

If nothing else, it is very important that you keep the right to move up and out to a new job. That's the point you should focus on. In a realistic full-time first job, you're not going to work for a competitor at the same time, so it is fine to tell them you won't if that helps the two sides reach agreement.

Good point about not taking "this is the standard agreement" for an answer. That's not good enough. Say you understand that it's a boilerplate legal document, and you'd be more than happy to give them a couple days to double-check your proposed change with their boss, counsel, or whoever they need to. Again, be firm while giving them an avenue to save face, and wait for them to call back with a sudden change of heart.

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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by stale2002 on Saturday May 13, 2017 @04:23PM (#14332809)
It depends on the state. In California, for example, Non-completes are notoriously unenforceable.

I'll sign whatever illegal documents you want me to sign, knowning that they don't matter.

You might respond by saying something like "what if they go after you anyway, even though it is unenforceable.".

But the problem is that they could just do that anyway, illegal contract or not.

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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by etjossem on Saturday May 13, 2017 @04:27PM (#14332829)
> But the problem is that they could just do that anyway, illegal contract or not.

The difference is that with an illegal contract, your future employer might actually believe it's more headache than it's worth to fight. I would err on the side of casually striking it out of the employment contract, simply saying "this part of the standard document doesn't apply in our state" etc.

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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by deaddodo on Saturday May 13, 2017 @10:33PM (#14333955)
Your new employer doesn't have to fight anything. Non-executive non-competes are specifically disallowed by the CA gov't. It's up to your previous employer to prove you were an executive (upper management/c-suite) and sue you, not vice versa.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by pfarnsworth on Saturday May 13, 2017 @11:41PM (#14334102)
But then you have to deal with a lawsuit, hire a lawyer, etc. Just because it's unenforceable doesn't mean that your shitty employer can't sue you. Why not just head it off at the beginning and have it right there in the signed contract?
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by jimsug on Sunday May 14, 2017 @02:40PM (#14336915)
You don't necessarily need to hire a lawyer, but I've always found this to be one of the pains of the American costs system.

On the other hand, a court can't really order you to work for the company, so even if by some miracle they were successful, it'd come down to a matter of damages, and those would be difficult to prove even if you went to work for a direct competitor.

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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by ulucs on Sunday May 14, 2017 @04:29AM (#14334790)
It'd be thrown out immediately anyway, due to having no legal basis (at least in the mainland European civil law systems)
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by palunon on Sunday May 14, 2017 @08:55AM (#14335428)
California doesn't have a mainland European civil law system.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by deaddodo on Sunday May 14, 2017 @07:45PM (#14338147)
The plaintiff pays costs in these cases (filing fees, motion fees, etc) and, if it gets thrown out (most likely, as it would be considered frivolous)/you win, you owe nothing. It's really a stupid action for a company to try and take.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by deaddodo on Saturday May 13, 2017 @10:30PM (#14333950)
They're not "notoriously difficult to enforce", they're specifically unenforcable to non-executives. The CA legislature and judiciary have long since settled any questions regarding these and also have frameworks in place for companies trying to make you an "executive engineer" or "director of blah" to try and get around it.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by sroussey on Sunday May 14, 2017 @01:20AM (#14334352)
Beyond that, not just the clause is unenforceable, it invalidates the whole contract.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by mcv on Sunday May 14, 2017 @07:59PM (#14338197)
Invalidating the whole contract is not good. You still want to get paid and get all the other benefits from the contract.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by ygra on Sunday May 14, 2017 @06:05AM (#14334965)
Isn't there usually a clause at the end stating that even if some parts are unenforceable, the rest of the contract still holds?
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by justinjlynn on Sunday May 14, 2017 @06:33AM (#14335037)
Yes, typically, there is a 'severability' clause that encodes that.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by Chris2048 on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @06:40AM (#14348596)
Wouldn't that clause be voided too?
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by itchyouch on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @11:59AM (#14350595)
The severability clause is what keeps illegal clauses from invalidating the whole contract.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by sroussey on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @11:57AM (#14359725)
Yes, and CA really doesn't want non-compete clauses, so they invalidate the severability clause as well.

By the way, the Silicon Valley HBO show can be remarkably accurate on things. It's rare that a TV show gets things like this right, where people in the business don't.

I just happen to know lots of attorneys in the space. I am not an attorney or giving legal advice. Talk to your attorney for that.

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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by Joeri on Sunday May 14, 2017 @02:36AM (#14334545)
What if the law changes out from underneath you? Better not to have it in the contract at all.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by cryptonector on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @06:28PM (#14353877)
Be careful. You might have trouble if you later move to another state and keep your job. Or if California changes its rules.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by juiyout on Sunday May 14, 2017 @01:26AM (#14334364)
Same here in Taiwan. Court has ruled more than once that non-complete cannot be applied to any employee who is not top-level executive.
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by m-j-fox on Sunday May 14, 2017 @06:03AM (#14334958)
Wasn't this a plot point in Silicon Valley?
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Re:Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job by Double_a_92 on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:53AM (#14342003)
Yes it was. "Silicon Valley" is a series about a start up, for anyone that doesn't know.
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