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Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by Animats on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:19AM (#14176658)
The article does not cite where Deere says that.

Cisco has been doing this for years. They're worse than Deere; if you buy a used Cisco router, you don't have the right to run the software. You have to go through the "Cisco Hardware Inspection and Software Relicensing Program" to get a new license.[1]

[1] http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/hw-sw-relicensing-prog...

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by rasz on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:51AM (#14176763)
Meanwhile in Europe you cant even claim that with software (eulas are toilet paper). Oracle tried to block resale of OEM software and had its ass handed to them in ECJ. http://www.computerworld.com/article/2505356/it-management/e...
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by EGreg on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:04AM (#14177088)
If only European countries were more entrepreneur-friendly and had more limited liability...
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by pinpeliponni on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:29AM (#14177158)
You can't lump European countries up like that. There are vast differences. Most offer high levels of entrepreneurial financing, supporting government policies, separate tax systems for entrepreneurs, programs, entrepreneurial education, high ratio of R&D investments turned into profit, and so on.

Actually, on most indicators most European countries lead US. The ones that are significantly lower are preferences towards entrepreneurship (most actually do not want that career option, and go for stable boring jobs), and the actual amounts of start-up companies. But still, the economic output of the EU per capita is higher than that of the US (has been for several years already), so who cares.

Here's something to read on in case you are really interested: Global Enterpreunership Monitor 2016-2017 global report (http://www.gemconsortium.org/report)

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by d_k_f on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:37AM (#14177176)
...apart from the ability to start a limited liability company with as little as 1€ in capital requirement, various tax exemptions and financial aid/sponsorship programs for start-ups and small companies in general?

This is tinted from my German point of view, but most of these programs have European equivalents or are available to large parts of the European population regardless of whether they live in Germany or not.

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by petre on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:59AM (#14177242)
Once the tax breaks go away, so does your small business. That's the trouble with subsidies and tax extemptions caught up in gov't red tape.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by _Adam on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:53AM (#14176767)
And as a result, now we switches running Linux!

https://cumulusnetworks.com/products/cumulus-linux/

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by prodmerc on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:58AM (#14176782)
Honestly, the existence of Linux (and other open source software) is a miracle after seeing all the bullshit around copyright and licensing these days...
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by 3131s on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:13AM (#14176958)
I always wonder how things would be if even half of the time invested in closed source had instead gone toward open source software. The open source ecosystem is already incredible, and IMO more capable in most cases than the closed source alternatives.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by tajen on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:57AM (#14177063)
I'm realizing you're right. If we want to change humanity, Linux is quite a good way to start.

Not all OSS is created equal, though. It's not by switching any end-user commercial product to GPL that we'll make an impact. It's more important for application servers, routers, OS, drivers, DBs, and in general libs that can be reused by someone else. If Snapchat were under APL Affero, would we care? What's in it for me if I switch my app to OSS?

I'm giving 1% revenue to OSS. But I have a huge feeling that it's far from enough – Any commercial infra (DB+OS+AppServer) would have cost me 60% of my income. The masterpiece of OSS that really advanced humanity is principally Linux – It seems it's the main one that's worth funding, isn't it?

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by EGreg on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:06AM (#14177097)
Umm how about:

WebKit (for browsers)

Wikipedia (for knowledge)

Wordpress (powers 20% of web)

Git, Mercurial

Apache, NGinX PHP, Node.js and all the languages

All the Web Frameworks

lame, ffmpeg, tons of other stuff as well

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by csydas on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:40AM (#14177184)
Seeing a list like this and realizing just how much for-pay software is built right on top of all these OSS projects makes it seem a bit farcical, especially in light of the discussion being about copy right; the products being contented under the guise of copy right to protect the business' profit are themselves just facades^ on top of open and free software.

It's really hard to accept programs like Cisco's licensing for the hardware when the software that makes it run is just built right on top of open software. Yes, it's been modified to work better and I'm not saying they don't have a right to use it and resell it after modification, but it feels very weird to know that it was built with free and open software.

The fact that so much of modern tech seems to be just rebranding already open source programs strikes me as a bit silly. The innovation at play seems to be the marketing rather than the actual technology being sold.

^Take facade in its denotation here, not connotations.

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by Clownshoesms on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:39AM (#14177015)
It's good to see it's made a difference. Back in the day, open source felt like a bit of an edgy proposition with a lot of ney-sayers. Microsoft very front and center there. Now we can get free IDE's versus the money they were trying to charge for Visual Studio or MSDN. And they wonder why developers dislike them.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by squarefoot on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:40AM (#14177187)
There are still huge profit opportunities behind Open Source software; ironically, the same openness that helps small startups to avoid high licensing costs of proprietary software also helped big corporations to reshape their product line, profiting from community work, offering certifications and support which in the end turned in more money. This IMO is why Linux and *BSD are alive and well today virtually killing almost every other proprietary Unix around. It's not Linux health that concerns me but what the Linux Foundation wants to do with it in the future. Call me paranoid but I don't trust them.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by markdown on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:49AM (#14177208)
You're paranoid.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by squarefoot on Sunday April 23, 2017 @05:01AM (#14177247)
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by cm2187 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:10AM (#14176819)
Open source also comes with all sort of string attached. Licenses that either force you to share the code or restict it in certain applications, etc. It's not a free world (as in you downloaded it you do whatever you want with it).
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by adrianN on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:38AM (#14176878)
Free software comes with the "string" that you grant the same rights to your users that you enjoyed. That's not so terrible, it's common courtesy.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by qb45 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:43AM (#14177025)
Sure, but this Free Software of yours is less free than say, FreeBSD, which also gives Cisco the freedom to extract money from 2nd hand sales of their equipment ;)
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by Clownshoesms on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:31AM (#14177161)
Is the net gain of a BSD license better than if it didn't exist, considering public companies use it for profit and don't contribute back? Absolutely, but same with LGPL. Actuaĺly I just wanted to argue it.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by dec0dedab0de on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:40AM (#14177020)
you're thinking of copy left, which is a type of free software, but not the only type. Atleast according to the FSF definitions.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by adrianN on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:43AM (#14177027)
The other kinds of free software have even fewer strings, so I didn't mention them.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by michaelmrose on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:19AM (#14177132)
Your primary restriction is on taking other peoples work building upon it and selling it without sharing your modifications or money with the people who gave you THEIR work for free.

If you arrange to give people the same money you would have paid for the closed sourced solution maybe they will let you keep your modifications to yourself and sell the resulting product.

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by YCode on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:31AM (#14176856)
What's a practical example of this?
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by anon1385 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:28AM (#14177156)
Anything under the AGPL.

For example just running AGPL software anywhere on Google's servers would open them up to having to open source the entire of Google search. That's why Google has banned the AGPL: https://opensource.google.com/docs/using/agpl-policy/

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by pdkl95 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @06:58AM (#14177606)
> running AGPL software anywhere on Google's servers ... entire of Google search

This is misinformed fear mongering (or maybe FUD?). The AGPL only requires that you offer the source code to the "Corresponding Source"[1] of the AGPL licensed program, if you modified[2] it, to anyone using the program over a network. Merely using an unmodified AGPL licensed program doesn't require anything. Just like other GPL-family licenses, the AGPL is not an "EULA" and doesn't apply to simply using software.

The only way Google's search software could be affected is if AGPL licensed code was added, which is why they have (with good reason) a policy to not do that. Similar risks would apply to including proprietary code, too.

[1] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.en.html#section1

[2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.en.html#section13

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by anon1385 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @07:35AM (#14177722)
>The AGPL only requires that you offer the source code to the "Corresponding Source"[1] of the AGPL licensed program

The entire definition of "corresponding source" in the AGPLv3 is identical to the language from the equivalent section of the GPLv3 (and it also includes the same "based on" language and section on aggregates) which is intended to apply to dynamically linked libraries, and it has been widely interpreted that way. If the software would be a single work as defined by the GPLv3 when distributed on a physical CD then it would be covered by the AGPLv3 when accessed over a network.

> the AGPL is not an "EULA" and doesn't apply to simply using software.

All GPL family licences are effectively EULAs because it's the GPL licence that grants the user permission to run the software, without that permission the user would be violating copyright by copying the program into RAM to execute it

>The only way Google's search software could be affected is if AGPL licensed code was added, which is why they have (with good reason) a policy to not do that.

The Google policy prohibits use or even installation. From the link:

>Do not attempt to check AGPL-licensed code into google3 or use it in a Google product in any way.

>Do not install AGPL-licensed programs on your workstation, Google-issued laptop, or Google-issued phone

As far as I know Google uses a single repository for nearly everything, which is why they are so keen to avoid AGPL code coming anywhere near it. Using AGPL code at Google necessitates "adding" it to the single huge google repo.

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by tinus_hn on Sunday April 23, 2017 @08:07AM (#14177835)
Google wouldn't really care if they had to provide the source to an unmodified copy of such a program, of course. It's about their own modifications.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by cm2187 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @06:22AM (#14177507)
Actually here is a practical example of the sort of annoyance resulting from FOSS licenses.

Google developped an excellent library that they open sourced called Google OR Tools [1]. It not only provides access to Google's in house linear programming optimiser, but also acts as a wrapper around other solvers, some free, some commercial, so that you just change a parameter to try another solver.

However because of conflicting licenses or licenses restrictions, google cannot distribute binaries that include certain FOSS solvers, like GLPK. So to be able to use GLPK you need to recompile the whole project yourself. If you go on the Google OR tool forum, you will see that it's not a simple CTR+SHIFT+B, everyone is struggling, and I wasted a lot of time trying to do this.

That's what I mean by strings attached.

[1] https://developers.google.com/optimization/

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by microcolonel on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:50AM (#14176898)
Give me an example of a useful open source networking software package which restricts the user's right to use the software.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by antod on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:08AM (#14176945)
They can't because by definition, restricting end user usage means the license isn't either Open Source or Free Software.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by anon1385 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:37AM (#14177173)
That's incorrect. The AGPL is considered Free Software by the FSF even though it clearly limits use of the software.

If you want to know why they support a license that violates freedom zero you will have to ask them but to me it suggests that the foundation of Free Software is fundamentally flawed in a world of networked software: i.e. the four freedoms are not compatible. My right to exercise freedoms 1, 2, and 3 limits your freedom to exercise freedom zero. Currently software authors have to pick one side of that argument either by using AGPL (restricts freedom 0) or GPL (doesn't protect freedoms 1, 2, or 3).

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by pdkl95 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @07:02AM (#14177621)
> it suggests that the foundation of Free Software is fundamentally flawed

Please stop spreading FUD about Free Software. The AGPL does not restrict usage. See Section 13 - the requirement to offer to network users only applies if you also make a derivative work by modifying the software, and even then it only requires you to offer the corresponding source to the work that was modified with the new modifications.

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by anon1385 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @07:47AM (#14177766)
It's not FUD, it's an awkward reality. The FSF themselves don't deny that there's a contradiction. The right to use modify code privately is one of the four freedoms, so your insistence that the AGPLv3 violates it is just supporting the existence of a fundamental contradiction.

This is from the legal analysis by Eben Moglen & Mishi Choudhary for the Software Freedom Law Center[1]

>Whether to extend the copyleft concept to the delivery of services by free software over a network is a complex issue long discussed in the free software community. Freedom zero requires that any user be allowed to run any program for any purpose, which of course includes the provision of computing services to others. Freedom two requires respect for the right of private modification. Their combination requires that anyone be able to run privately-modified copies of GPL’d programs for the purpose of providing computing services to others.

That's very clear that freedom zero and freedom two necessitates allowing people to run modified GPL programs on servers without making the code available to users. The AGPL is explicitly designed to prevent that, so it's inevitably in conflict.

>even then it only requires you to offer the corresponding source to the work that was modified with the new modifications.

As I demonstrated in my other comment the language in the AGPLv3 is identical to the GPLv3 when it comes to the issues of derivative works/combined works/aggregate works. Everybody accepts that the GPLv3 requires software linking to a GPLv3 library to be made available under the terms of the GPLv3. The same applies to the AGPLv3, so in many cases it will mean people will also have to release their own code that links to the AGPLv3 library they are running on their server, if they make modifications to the AGPLv3 code.

[1] https://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2014/SFLC-Guide_to...

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by anon1385 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:32AM (#14177163)
Anything licensed under the AGPL attaches conditions to using the software. Running the software on a server means you are required to open source the other software running on the server.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by adrianN on Sunday April 23, 2017 @07:21AM (#14177677)
That's bullshit. Only if you've made a derivative work (e.g. by linking AGPL software into your software) you have to offer the derivative work under AGPL. You can perfectly well run an AGPL webserver and not be forced to put your operating system under AGPL.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by anon1385 on Sunday April 23, 2017 @07:53AM (#14177793)
Sure, if you run a server that's only running some unmodified AGPLv3 software then you don't have to share the source, although in that situation the user typically has access to the source through other channels anyway (the market for selling private AGPLv3 code is pretty much non existent, so the code is almost certainly from a public project).

In the real world people typically want to use code as part of their own service/application which contains domain specific logic they wrote themselves.

>You can perfectly well run an AGPL webserver and not be forced to put your operating system under AGPL.

Because the GPLv3 and AGPLv3 (the licences are identical in this regard) have explicit sections excluding operating systems and system libraries from the terms of the licence.

Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by iamacynic on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:37AM (#14176874)
this is the correct answer. do not attempt to lobby corporations to change their revenue models; that is insane, and stupid. simply come up with a better solution, and use it. problem solved.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by retox on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:08AM (#14176946)
And hope you don't "infringe" on any patents in the process... Easier said than done but it's definitely the long-term solution.
Re:John Deere has turned itself into a poster-child for the ... by zbuf on Sunday April 23, 2017 @05:12AM (#14177292)
You're right, the submitted article says they "reiterated it" but with no source.

The rest of the content is from the Wired article quoted, which is a couple of years old but should probably be the link here:

https//www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/