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Re:Remove United from your flight results by rm999 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:08PM (#14103553)
The comments in here are oddly fatalist about the whole thing. We put a lot of trust in airlines; and not just in safety or to get us somewhere, but we also give them an unusual number of legal protections once we're in their care.

When the drama first started I kind of wrote it off: "this must have been a misunderstanding compounded by a single employee's stupidity". But when I found that it was not only condoned, but fully defended by the company top-down, red flags went off. Then, the inevitable outrage led to past stories resurfacing, with a pattern of absurd insensitivity (abused dogs, broken guitars, sexist clothing policies, etc). Then, I started remembering some terrible experiences I've personally had on United. Like the time they left me stranded in India for 2 days (rumor is the staff did this on purpose to protest some new policy around maximum flight times), then made me wait 3+ hours to get approved for a hotel room at 1 am even though I was flying business class (which would have been wrong even if I wasn't business class!) Or the time a gate agent lied to me about contacting a connecting flight, leading me to miss an entire day on my Thailand trip. I have many more of these.

My point here is that United really does seem to have ingrained issues that directly harm their customers. This toxic culture doesn't benefit them in any way, but if nobody cares they'll have no incentive to stop.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by wapz on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:43PM (#14103715)
The one terrible experience I had with United is when I was flying from Japan to SFO connecting at LA. We arrived at LA and didn't see our connecting flight on the flight status screen and went to customer service. The lady said "well it was cancelled and they should have told you in Japan. We can't help you now." Both flights were WITH united and when I asked for another flight she said "I'll send you tomorrow. OK?!" Well it wasn't nearly as bad as some of the others' have experienced and didn't cause me to boycott them but these recent allegations that have surfaced seem pretty serious.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by johnfn on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:53PM (#14103761)
> Then, the inevitable outrage led to past stories resurfacing, with a pattern of absurd insensitivity (abused dogs, broken guitars, sexist clothing policies, etc).

You don't think you'd be able to dredge up similarly bad stories for any other airline?

Look, what United did on that flight was pretty awful. But the rest of this to me smacks of the typical rumor mill that spins up when a company has bad PR, which surfaces the typical sort of 2-deviations-below-the-bell-curve scenarios you'll occasionally have when you're a company at United's scale - a scale that employs tens of thousands of people that do not actually all act as one giant United hive mind as much as we'd like them to but rather each as autonomous people that can occasionally do wrong things in a way that has no bearing on the company at large.

(That was a pretty long sentence.)

For what it's worth, I know an employee of United who loves it. But what was that saying about the plural of anecdote again..?

Re:Remove United from your flight results by jedharris on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:23PM (#14103889)
The well-informed discussion on Naked Capital (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/united-passenger-remo...) strongly supports the claim that the removal was illegal. It also provides interesting evidence that the decisions were traceable to United's attempt to reduce costs by using third party contractors and affiliates (the flight was operated by Republic, an affiliate).

This quote is telling: "When I was a outsourced regional jet captain operating United Express flights between 2010 and 2014 the gate agents in charge of the regional (out-sourced) flights at United hub, Washington-Dulles, were third-party contractors. They were horribly trained and frequently surly. The gates were always crowded, everyone there was angry, nothing worked, it was utter chaos and misery. I absolutely dreaded flying there and did my best to avoid it, Chicago was only a little better."

Re:Remove United from your flight results by joezydeco on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:44PM (#14103991)
This is the best summary of the issue I have seen to date, and really gets to the root of United's situation. Especially this quote:

"I really don’t think the upper management at United has any clue about the nuts and bolts, day to day, inner workings of the company. Post-merger United is too big to fail, too big to manage and far too Balkanized to govern. I fully expect the ugliness to continue at United."

Re:Remove United from your flight results by otempomores on Friday April 14, 2017 @12:47AM (#14112750)
'Wenn das der Führer wüsste' falacy detected. The CEOs and shareholders know.. Or made it theire job to be not reached by that knowledge. Why be outraged over VW and downtalk this?
Re:Remove United from your flight results by johnfn on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:51PM (#14104031)
I'm not arguing the fact that United did a really bad thing. I definitely agree with that.

I'm only arguing the supposition that United is a uniquely bad company.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by charlieflowers on Thursday April 13, 2017 @02:33AM (#14104634)
If they're bad but not uniquely bad, it's still helpful for consumers to boycott them. Once they cease to exist (yes, that far!), a strong message has been delivered to all corporations.

Many other bad companies (that keep United from being unique) haven't stumbled in such a harmful, public way. United did, and we consumers need to make an example out of them.

(Edit: grammar).

Re:Remove United from your flight results by jedharris on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:40AM (#14104216)
I'd like to know if United is a uniquely outsourced airline. I think that is quite possible and if it is, then it lends considerable weight to the likelihood that it is a uniquely bad airline.

This is the kind of problem a company can get into when the people making the key decisions operate in terms of "metrics" that don't track reality well enough. Plus when a lot of the work is done by outsourced vendors, they probably don't pass on unquantifiable bad news.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by ubernostrum on Thursday April 13, 2017 @01:34AM (#14104393)
Compared to the other two big US airlines, yes -- United has an earned reputation for slashing mainline service in favor of regional affiliates. People occasionally joked (only half joking) that if previous CEO Jeff Smisek were only legally allowed to, he'd have outsourced long-haul international flights to 50-seat CRJs.

This also played a role in United's frankly abysmal on-time ratings; in order to have enough capacity while moving everything into tiny regional jets, they had to raise the frequency of the flights, which led to logistical clusterfucks at their hubs when they just overloaded the ability of the airport operations to handle that many flights.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by joezydeco on Thursday April 13, 2017 @09:17AM (#14106554)
he'd have outsourced long-haul international flights to 50-seat CRJs...

Smisek did do it with the long-range 757s he gained in the Continental merger. Smaller plane, less crew...and just enough range to get back if the headwinds are light. If not, it's an unscheduled 90 minute refuel in Canada. Add the time to clear immigration and customs, and now you have 200+ people with a missed connection.

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699955

I've had it happen to me, it's not fun.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by ubernostrum on Thursday April 13, 2017 @02:19PM (#14109559)
United isn't the only airline which did/does use 757s on transatlantic flights. And the fact that US east coast to western Europe was within range for the 757 is a big reason why airlines are pushing Boeing for something else in the same class.

Meanwhile, airlines are also looking at Airbus, which is talking up a long-range variant of the A321neo for exactly this purpose.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by arcticbull on Thursday April 13, 2017 @03:50PM (#14110355)
Certainly compared to pre-merger American. American Eagle, their regional arm, was a wholly-owned subsidiary. They picked up some other carriers under the Eagle flag when they merged with US Airways, though Eagle is still large (now called Envoy Air).
Re:Remove United from your flight results by killwhitey on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:01AM (#14104069)
It's possible that this situation will cause all the other airlines to try improve their staff and bureaucracy out of fear of being next.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by Yizahi on Thursday April 13, 2017 @06:31AM (#14105660)
>You don't think you'd be able to dredge up similarly bad stories for any other airline?

Hitting paying customer head on the armrest until he lost consciousness? I think no. I hope you don't believe "he fell" united version, because that's literally impossible in the economy seats. I may eventually come to terms with the loss of several hundreds dollars (or 1-2 thousand, due to lost car and hotel reservations) but concussion is inexcusable offense for me. I won't tolerate that ever.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by jedharris on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:57PM (#14103777)
Sure, we should collect some data.

That said, I and my family decided over a year ago never to fly United again, based on multiple bad experiences. Independent of this incident, I'm sure we made a good decision.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by wehere1 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:00PM (#14103797)
huh? of course not all employees of the company will think alike. but when an employee does something fucked up like they did in this case, a reasonable company should condemn it and support the affected customer
Re:Remove United from your flight results by johnfn on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:14PM (#14103853)
Which is exactly what Oscar Munoz has done.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by newman314 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:36PM (#14103957)
After the third or fourth attempt which does not reflect well on him.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by macintux on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:25PM (#14103898)
...belatedly, after tremendous uproar and a tremendously lukewarm non-apology apology at first.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by mcv on Thursday April 13, 2017 @10:48AM (#14107382)
Sure, it may be an extreme case, but the CEO's reaction is telling. If everybody now accepts this as normal, we're sending United a signal that this is okay and they can continue like this. If we send a signal that this is not okay, they have a reason to try to do better, and so do the other airlines.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by BurningFrog on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:40AM (#14104214)
Yeah, getting your news from whatever debris viral videos blow up is a modern way of staying informed, and may be the worst one yet invented.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by milesrout on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:26PM (#14103908)
Of course you would be able to come up with similarly bad stories for many other airlines. Especially American ones.

That doesn't excuse them. All American airlines suck. That problem should be fixed.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by vinay427 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:29PM (#14103923)
I don't think this is an entirely fair comparison, as US airlines are far more biased towards domestic flights which globally are held to a lower tier of service. That being said, I would still anecdotally evaluate them as of poorer quality than the better foreign airlines.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by hexane360 on Thursday April 13, 2017 @02:26AM (#14104601)
So the solution is to automatically give more business to every airline that isn't currently getting slammed in the media? That's not a good way to encourage competition.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by perseusprime11 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:07PM (#14103824)
In terms of culture, United needs to learn from Southwest. Southwest has great culture internally as well as externally. United has bunch of slogans as culture. Their CEO has no clue about creating a culture that delights customers. He blamed the customer in the letter and then blamed it on system failure but never on him. He failed to create a customer centric culture and instead fostered a culture that perceives customers as a threat or idiots for flying their airline.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by zzalpha on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:57AM (#14104270)
In terms of culture, United needs to learn from Southwest. Southwest has great culture internally as well as externally.

LOL, you mean this Southwest?

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/feb/15/overweight-film...

Wait, maybe you meant this Southwest:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/04/1...

Re:Remove United from your flight results by lightbyte on Thursday April 13, 2017 @09:09AM (#14106481)
I dont see anything wrong with your first link. If someone can't fit in their seat they should buy two seats or not fly.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by Mithaldu on Thursday April 13, 2017 @10:37AM (#14107296)
As a fat person myself, yeah, if you get that far it's on you to make that clear in advance, not in the airline to measure your waist at the gate. That dude is just being an entitled dick.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by hexane360 on Thursday April 13, 2017 @02:29AM (#14104615)
Do you have some examples of Southwest's good culture? My only experiences with Southwest have been negative.

a) They're always more expensive on the flights I take.

b) They hide their fares from aggregators like Google Flights.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by lolc on Thursday April 13, 2017 @06:23AM (#14105626)
In a surprise event, a Hacker News commenter discovers correlation between price and quality, spurs entirely new branch of economic research.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by perseusprime11 on Thursday April 13, 2017 @07:16AM (#14105841)
https://hbr.org/2015/12/how-southwest-airlines-hires-such-de...

"At Southwest, for example, we talk about hiring not for skills but three attributes: a warrior spirit (that is, a desire to excel, act with courage, persevere and innovate); a servant’s heart (the ability to put others first, treat everyone with respect and proactively serve customers); and a fun-loving attitude (passion, joy and an aversion to taking oneself too seriously.)"

Re:Remove United from your flight results by triangleman on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:09PM (#14116431)
They are well known for being the cheapest domestic airline, and the only one to turn a profit every year for the last 30+ years, and thus have never gone bankrupt or been bought out like every single other American airline.

They only buy a single type of plane and fly it back and forth between the same city pairs. Thus their main competition used to be bus service. Often they would advertise one-way fares for $39 or even $19 as a promotion. Today you can still fly for under $100 between many cities (I live in Texas where they were founded so maybe my experience is different from yours).

As for hiding fares from aggregators, it turns out that there is a global booking system served by only a few companies, the largest I think is called Sabre, and in order to list on that system you need to pay a big annual fee. So in another example of cost cutting, Southwest refused to pay the fee and just sells tickets directly to customers, cutting out travel agents.

They were the first to have unassigned seats, the first to eliminate meals from flights, and they even used to have provocatively dressed stewardesses before that became uncool. Today the flight attendants sing songs over the intercom.

They even used to shave off a few minutes of turnaround time by having everyone out on the tarmac for boarding when the plan pulled up. It was a big game of musical chairs and apparently people found this fun.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by bingomad123 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:40PM (#14103980)
The worst part of the story was United's campain to smear the victim and to paint him as a sex offender.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by avs733 on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:09AM (#14104102)
I want to agree with you, because that was utterly noxious...but I still am hungup on the fact that the Police (in instances like this and things like SWATting) continue to just do the bidding of some random person. Its like we have transcended violence committed in the name of the state for violence committed by the state in the name of violence.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by mcv on Thursday April 13, 2017 @11:20AM (#14107711)
I missed that smear campaign. It seems quite a number of media outlets are willing to divert attention from a beleaguered corporation and implicitly defend their right to beat up passengers.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by what_ever on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:55PM (#14104045)
Is there any proof that United was the one behind smear campaign?
Re:Remove United from your flight results by paulddraper on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:29PM (#14103655)
> when I found that it was not only condoned, but fully defended by the company top-down, red flags went off.

I thought United Airlines and CEO apologized?

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-united-boarding-201704...

> “That is not who our family at United is,” Munoz said.

> Later Wednesday, United said all customers on that flight are receiving compensation for their ticket costs.

Re:Remove United from your flight results by SyneRyder on Thursday April 13, 2017 @01:25AM (#14104363)
Here's a link to the CEO's original/first email supporting the staff:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/north-america/revealed-...

"Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right."

Re:Remove United from your flight results by late2part on Thursday April 13, 2017 @02:19AM (#14104574)
Their CEO thinks this is 'flying right'. F* him. F* Munoz. F* United.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by empath75 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:31PM (#14103666)
That was his third statement on it. The first one strongly defended their actions.
Re:Remove United from your flight results by jackweirdy on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:37PM (#14103691)
And an internal one defended the event because the passenger was "belligerent", as if that made their actions and what followed OK
Re:Remove United from your flight results by late2part on Thursday April 13, 2017 @02:20AM (#14104579)
Sane evidence suggests the customer stood his ground and raised his voice, and this was escalated by the police called by the corporation to support their false assertion of contract rights.

Customer was not belligerent. Stupid employees and stupid police or rent-a-cops escalated the situation to violence.