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Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by nxc18 on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:00AM (#13913724)
I'm impressed by the ability of the press to take any new tech idea and spin that into Apple being the latent dark horse that will win the category.

Off the top of my head I can think of streaming TV, a physical TV set, AI, and self-driving cars.

Is there any evidence Apple has any advantage over the already quite competent, well-funded players who have already demonstrated significant progress in this area?

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by AndrewKemendo on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:44AM (#13915119)
already quite competent, well-funded players who have already demonstrated significant progress in this area?

And who exactly would that be? In terms of HMD shipments Microsoft is the only one doing anything serious with AR and even the Hololens form factor, FOV, PPD, battery etc... are nowhere near ready for mainstream. I can only think of one "well funded" AR company and they aren't doing so hot. That's not to denigrate my brothers over at Meta, Avegant and others who are working hard on HMD and who we love.

In sum total there has been just south of $5B of public investments or acquisitions into the AR development market since about 2014. Basically nothing when you consider what has to go into making the AR ecosystem work.

In fact I don't know if people really understand what it's going to take to make consumer AR huge, which is why I wrote this handy guide[1].

My take is that Apple has the best shot because it bought Metaio (at the time the largest AR company in the world) for pennies a long time ago and absorbed all of the knowledge they had been building since 2003.

The trick is whether Apple has figured out how to do a sleek, wide FOV HUD with SLAM, quality 3D rendering and a decent battery life - likely as an attachment to the iPhone.

[1] https://virtualrealitypop.com/heres-what-it-s-going-to-take-...

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by Animats on Monday March 20, 2017 @01:31PM (#13916018)
The Microsoft Hololens integration and packaging is quite impressive. It's a full, self-contained AR system in reasonably lightweight self-contained headgear. The HTC Vive and the Oculus Rift are big, clunky devices with cables.

If the Hololens could be brought down to a price point where the Pokemon Go crowd could use it, it would be a success for that alone.

How good does AR need to be to do HyperReality?[1] Not much better than the HoloLens. More field of view would be needed. The ability to draw dark would be nice, but isn't essential for that, because it's explicitly a bright overlay on the world.

[1] https://vimeo.com/166807261

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by AndrewKemendo on Monday March 20, 2017 @02:59PM (#13916722)
First of all I think the hololens is an amazing piece of tech and is the best device out there. That said, I disagree about the price point being the only thing. It needs to be in a really tight form factor and needs a lot of work on FOV and usability.

How good does AR need to be to do HyperReality?[1] Not much better than the HoloLens

You're underestimating the problem significantly. Read the link I posted previously because I lay it out there in detail. (I don't get paid or referrals or anything if you read it, it's just that I already wrote it all out there and don't want to do it again). FOV and draw dark are far from trivial issues, not to even mention content and geolocalization/georectification.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by Animats on Monday March 20, 2017 @03:08PM (#13916788)
I've tried the HoloLens, and it's not bad for what it does. The narrow field of view is the main limitation. Putting in a greyscale filter to dim the real world makes the inability to write dark tolerable. It's amazing how much hardware they crammed into a lightweight, wireless headset.

The VR headsets, on the other hand, are still about as clunky as they were in the 1990s. The head tracking is much better, and the resolution is a little better. They're still too heavy, too bulky, badly balanced, and need cables.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by intrasight on Monday March 20, 2017 @12:35PM (#13915524)
Exactly. While you could argue whether or not "significant progress" has been made, I don't think you can argue that success in AR is going to require an investment well beyond what any VC will be willing to cough up. Apple, with it huge stockpile of cash, can invest in long game instead of trying to satisfy an investor.

What about Facebook and Google? They aren't hardware companies. As a content producer, I don't trust them to be a good technology partner for consumer products.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by hyperpallium on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:01AM (#13914271)
Apple can make fashionable stuff, which headgear/glasses are, much more so than phones or watches. Few good engineering firms can.

e.g. Consider the publicity shots for VR. As fashion, they are self-parody.

Though IMHO key is heads-up display only - ie no creeping camera. This subtraction destroys AR, and so much related value... it's something a google could never bring itself to do. But Apple has demonstrated time and again that they will omit so-called "crucial" features if they undermine the offering. Another fairly rare strength...

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by hellofunk on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:21AM (#13914431)
> Apple can make fashionable stuff

Got to be honest, I think they missed a big opportunity to make the watch fashionable and popular by simply choosing a square face, reminiscent of nerdy calculator watches from decades past, rather than a nice circular face, like most other watches.

Most people won't get an Apple Watch not because it isn't useful, but (I think) because it just doesn't look right, doesn't fit into the "fashion" that it claims to be.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by dagw on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:24AM (#13914445)
Most people won't get an Apple Watch not because it isn't useful, but (I think) because it just doesn't look right, doesn't fit into the "fashion" that it claims to be.

Apple's gamble seems to be targeting people whom have never owned or even wanted to own a traditional watch and for whom the traditional shape holds no intrinsic emotional value.

Nor for that matter is square an unknown shape even for higher end watches:

http://media.gq.com/photos/56c61128b9dd6cd82e6f7bb5/master/w...

http://media.gq.com/photos/56c61128585fc86b2f2497c6/master/w...

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by Tenhundfeld on Monday March 20, 2017 @12:23PM (#13915425)
This is totally OT, but your first whom should be who.

>Apple's gamble seems to be targeting people whom have never owned or even wanted to own a traditional watch...

That should be who. People who have never owned... is the noun phrase acting as an object of targeting, and who is the subject of the modifying phrases who have never owned and [who] never even wanted to own. I'm not trying to be a pedant. By using whom, you're signaling that you care about grammar; so I thought I'd give feedback. Feel free to ignore.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by dagw on Monday March 20, 2017 @12:25PM (#13915430)
Feedback received and accepted.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by JustSomeNobody on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:47AM (#13914639)
I haven't bought one because I feel it is redundant. You have a second device, with very similar functionality, that you now need to keep track of and keep updated, etc.

The goal should be simplification.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by verisimilidude on Monday March 20, 2017 @12:54PM (#13915693)
IMO Apple did an outstanding job with the aesthetic aspects of their Watch. They sold it in different sizes and finishes, with a large variety of different straps. They understood that different people would want different looks, and made the perfect timelessly understated device to accommodate most.

The bigger problem is that Apple Watch never became its own fashion statement. The hype fizzled out quickly and it never reached the same cultural peaks as some of Apple's other products like the iPod or iPhone, products that became their own status symbols in their primes.

And that comes back to function, because the Apple Watch is still a solution in search of a problem.

"Hey dude, something is happening, take out your phone!"

It's not a very compelling value.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by phaser on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:16AM (#13914875)
When Jobs/Ive was crazy over Dieter Rams designs for Braun, the year was 2001 and music players were designed like if it was a gadget for Batman's belt.

For the years to come all apple designs made look the competition like ridiculous old technology.

Today, Apple designs like the watch and Macbooks follow the same tired idea of curvy, minimalistic Braun-like devices while some competitors are leapfrogging to new design paradigms, maybe trying to pull the same 2001 success of the iPod; Perhaps no one is there yet, but many years have passed and the taste of design is eager for the next thing.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by j2bax on Monday March 20, 2017 @12:44PM (#13915598)
Simplicity in design seems like a fairly timeless design principle. Unfortunately, once you've simplified the design to its near simplest form, its hard to make design updates that feel significantly advancing.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by santaclaus on Monday March 20, 2017 @02:38PM (#13916542)
> while some competitors are leapfrogging to new design paradigms

Which competitors/designs do you think are beating out Apple?

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by abritinthebay on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:56PM (#13919216)
Given that every phone and laptop design is a weak derivative of Apple's work I too am curious.

Even many newer smart watches are trending to more Apple-like

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by woah on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:37AM (#13915052)
At some level form has to follow function, and a square face is simply more functional for a computing screen than a round one. A round faced screen is just as much of a gimmick as a square dial.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by abritinthebay on Monday March 20, 2017 @04:55PM (#13917584)
> I think they missed a big opportunity to make the watch fashionable and popular

Yeah, I mean they're only the second largest watchmaker in the world, barely popular at all!

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by justaman on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:18AM (#13913872)
Their idea of AR's use is... novel. I cant see myself wanting to "turn someone's head" in AR/VR.

Can I get a Siri that can actually answer my questions instead of "Here's what I found on the web for that" ....

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by Pigo on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:18AM (#13913881)
As someone who's already built several prototypes for the HoloLens, marketed for the Air Force, I also find this kind of humorous.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by Overtonwindow on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:07AM (#13914322)
.....Continue please..... :-)
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by Pigo on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:55AM (#13915201)
We've purchased a few, and wanted to develop practical applications for someone in the field looking up materials and conversing with support. The truth is the new Skype beta is already a lot better than the things we've built. It's actually pretty sweet, because even the person who's not on the device can see what the person on it sees and can place holograms and access shared files and such.

I don't think it's geared towards interaction. You can connect any bluetooth device to it, because it's just a Windows 10 machine, but it seems unreasonable to expect the user to be sitting down with keyboard and mouse or to assume they have some kind of gyroscopic mouse. There are some cool games that show what's possible, but data visualization seems to be a huge possibility. At least until they standardize more forms of input.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by JustSomeNobody on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:44AM (#13914605)
> I'm impressed by the ability of the press to take any new tech idea and spin that into Apple being the latent dark horse that will win the category.

I'm not. Not everyone is up on new tech. But, there's probably only 5 people in developed nations that have not heard of Apple and that they are a big tech company.

The goal here is ad revenue and for that, one needs clicks and for that, one needs Apple in the headline to reach more people.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by erikpukinskis on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:55PM (#13919210)
No one is really responding to your question:

> Is there any evidence Apple has any advantage over the already quite competent, well-funded players who have already demonstrated significant progress in this area?

Yes. They obviously have world-class expertise in miniaturization, which is the key challenge for augmented reality glasses.

They also just released last year their AirPods, which have a custom chip for delivering low latency wireless streams of audio. Video or light field is the next step, but AirPods are on the market which means Apple already has an MVP out. That's a huge advantage.

The other key missing piece for any kind of mobile AR or VR is inside-out tracking. That, again, requires custom low-power silicon which is very much a strength for Apple. Compared to Google, Oculus, HTC, or any of the startups, Apple has much more experience with custom silicon. They acquired Metaio and Flyby, which build their machine vision base.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by jpalomaki on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:06AM (#13913779)
One advantage could be the sales channel. Through Apple store they can easily get the products into the hand of customers. This might be quite valuable with products which you need to experience in order to understand them.

Apple's share of mobile phone market can be helpful if they want to bring in functionality that requires special features from the handset.

Also if we think about some more down to earth stuff, Apple could become "number one AR vendor" by just putting the features to next iPhone models. If the stuff actually works and if Apple allows, this might bring in 3rd party developers.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by TheOtherHobbes on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:35AM (#13914041)
Nope. Apple's biggest advantages were always a sensitivity to untapped consumer interest, and marketing genius to get consumers excited about products that integrated smoothly into their lives.

The latter has certainly disappeared. See e.g. the stampede away from the Mac.

For the former: it's debatable how much untapped consumer interest there is in AR.

Glasses would work if they were slim and stylish. But if the motivation is to "beam content into the eyes of the user" and not to empower users to do non-gimmicky cool new things they couldn't before - that's not going to happen.

It's the difference between a power tool approach and a menu approach. If you give people power tools and let them play with them, they'll do amazing things.

If you give people a menu of options - tweak a photo, tweak a photo a different way, take a 180 degree panorama, passively watch a VR movie - that's extremely unexciting.

Cook has always been more of the latter type than the former.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by eastWestMath on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:31AM (#13914489)
"Stampede away from the mac" is a complete overstatement, Apple still makes the most profits of any computer manufacturer.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by collyw on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:24AM (#13914940)
Agreed. There is a lot of ranting in the tech community, but for your average user they seem as popular as ever.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by saycheese on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:11AM (#13913826)
AR will become mainstream at the point people see it as the norm in public.

Apple's core advantage is that they set the standard for mobile smart devices and consumer will follow them if they're able to gain momentum.

Question at that point swings back to how they'll try to do it, which becomes highly speculative.

If I had to guess, they'll morph the iPhone to a AR device like the morphed the iPod to a phone; meaning the first step is to add AR to the iPhone and gain traction.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by shadowmint on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:22AM (#13913920)
> they'll morph the iPhone to a AR device

...eventually, maybe; probably after someone else has first.

The technology backing this is the stuff that the kinect was based on, by PrimeSense; it's for 3d spatial scanning, and it's super cool tech, but it's no more 'AR' than the kinect was or the leap motion was; turns out that even if you have a point cloud, AR is still hard.

The sad thing is that there's no sign that Apple is actually building any kind of meaningful product with it.

Any kind of competitive advantage Apple might have as a company hinges on them actually building something novel and meaningful in this space.

I know they like to be all ninja and secret with their R&D, but you can't just hide in a closet for 6 months with a million dollars and pull out a strong AI; that sort of technological leap just doesn't happen very much any more, and certainly not without a lot of people noticing the massive amount of money it consumes to produce.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by saycheese on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:33AM (#13914017)
Being first is irrelevant when it comes to being mainstream. Apple's iPod was not the first mobile digital music player, nor was the iPhone the first smartphone.

Being novel also isn't that important. For example, Apple's white earphones played a major role in getting the public to see that their devices were mainstream, but there was nothing truly novel about them.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by ethbro on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:54AM (#13914206)
Being first may be irrelevant, but if you're never first then someone else has to come up with the tech first.

I believe parent comments are mostly making the point that we still have another generation before Apple would have anything sufficiently advanced enough that they could do their post-90s "polish and package" magic.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by saycheese on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:07AM (#13914315)
"Polish" is irrelevant as it relates to realism - what matters is people believe it adds value realitive to the cost to them, which includes the social impact it has on them.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by hyperpallium on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:51AM (#13914177)
You're right in general, but iPhone was the first touchscreen smartphone. Today, (almost) all smartphones look like an iPhone. (Though Apple didn't invent the touchscreen.)
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by MagnumOpus on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:41AM (#13915101)
Beyond what the others are saying about IBM's Simon, Apple wasn't even the first with a capacitive touchscreen - they did it a year after the LG Prada...
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by ethbro on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:02AM (#13914282)
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by saycheese on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:02AM (#13914279)
IBM Simon was the first phone with a touchscreen in 1992.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by Cthulhu_ on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:37AM (#13914057)
The iPhone already is an AR device though, and one of its first major apps was an AR application - Layar, back in 2009. One of its major apps has an AR component (Pokemon Go).

I could see them making a Google Cardboard-like mounting bracket / dock for the iphone I guess, maybe with better cameras and sensors.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by mulletbum on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:48AM (#13914159)
I think Google Glass is more where they will go. Except, just like the first iPhone, they will make it actually look like a normal pair of sunglasses. Apple has NEVER made new products, but they have refined existing products at key times to come out with something amazing. iPod, iPad, iPhone were not the first, but they were breakthrough staples that rules their area. Apple Glasses would do the same if done right.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by root_axis on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:10AM (#13914338)
> Except, just like the first iPhone, they will make it actually look like a normal pair of sunglasses.

Not going to happen (any time soon). That's an insurmountable engineering challenge for the foreseeable future.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by MarkMc on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:40AM (#13914576)
Let's get specific: How long do you think it will be before Apple release iGlasses? 10 years?
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by root_axis on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:51AM (#13914673)
I'm not sure when they will release a product in the vein of "iGlasses", but I'm certain they won't release an AR device that "looks like a normal pair of sunglasses" within 10 years. This isn't a situation where incremental progress will make this possible, there would need to be a fundamental breakthrough in battery and GPU efficiency that, while possible, is not necessary inevitable and definitely not on track within a predictable timeline.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by probablybanned on Monday March 20, 2017 @01:55PM (#13916216)
What do you think about solving this with wireless power transfer? There has been some promising research recently into extending the range of resonant inductive coupling.

It's nobody's ideal, but a clip-on/necklace style power solution might be sellable to the public if the value proposition of the glasses is good enough.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by root_axis on Monday March 20, 2017 @02:30PM (#13916485)
A future where resonance charging equipment is safe, functionally practical and ubiquitous is sort of a breakthrough scenario in and of itself, but even then, you're still talking about a technology that is somewhat out of reach. Even if we can squeeze the necessary GPU power into the form factor of "a normal pair of sunglasses", consider the additional heat dissipation requirements of a device as thin as normal glasses that is also in a state of perpetual charge, especially when we take into account the human face's particular sensitivity to heat.

Maybe very thick oversized (by today's standards) frames will come into style and something like that will be on the border of possibility, but it seems like a real stretch within the next 10 years.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by probablybanned on Monday March 20, 2017 @06:36PM (#13918248)
After thinking it over a bit, I'm going to take the other side of the bet.

We agree that power consumption is a limiting factor no matter what. In my imagined system, only something on the order of 1W would be delivered to the glasses. Delivering 1W over 10cm with large-ish coil area at >50% efficiency using NFMR isn't really a breakthrough, but it's only a way of eliminating the LiPo bulk and nothing more.

The thing is, I don't think we're near the boundary of power efficiency even with today's silicon. The way forward is to push all the feature tracking and other low-level vision tasks down to the ASIC level, while accepting some strict limitations on the rendering side. So a lot of it comes down to scope of features. Its most immediately useful applications are little more than a glorified HUD -- project some GPS data here or an info overlay there. Blit a video source on top of a marker, that sort of thing.

This sort of practical product, by 2027, I'll say yes. Mindblowing, transform-your-world stuff? No. But let's see what happens...

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by saycheese on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:45AM (#13914119)
Speculation is rising that Apple will add 3D sensing to give the phone a sense of depth to be used for augmented reality applications.

3D sensing is not a new technology and was initially adopted by Microsoft‘s Kinect and Lenovo‘s Tango-enabled Phab2 Pro.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by pmontra on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:49AM (#13914161)
AR will become mainstream, yes. Apple will do well in AR, maybe but future is difficult to forecast.

Anyway, my prescription glasses are maybe 25 grams (0.89 ounces). I think the current technology is a long way from giving us something as light as that even if the bulk of it rests in our pocket. I expect to read about the upcoming AR revolution for many years.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by saycheese on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:00AM (#13914258)
AR is not only about eyes, nor does it require realistic overlay - all that's required is it's sync'd to reality and augments reality.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by pvg on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:40AM (#13914077)
The advantage is the same - integrated ecosystem of products they have strong control over and brand recognition. That's why this story pops up about everything, whether it's true or not or whether Apple can actually leverage the advantage. Also, aren't dark horses inherently latent?
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by awinder on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:50AM (#13914660)
I want to contest that "streaming TV" currently encompasses quite competent players. DirecTV Now has been a dumpster fire of a rollout, Hulu is coming in late with a rather boutique offering, and none of these services offer some basic tablestakes features like greater-than-2-channel audio. Which, maybe I'm just overprivileged, but 5.1 audio is streamed over airwaves right now, and these guys can't figure out how to do it over the internet? Additionally theres tons of arcane pricing rules around how many streams an account can hold, weird DVR inplementation / rules around DVR, basically the kind of efficacy in solutions that existed for music before Apple came along and forced sanity into the market.

I think this is easily an area that any number of players could really ratchet up & take, but not one solid reference implementation exists right now.

Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by JohnnyConatus on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:57AM (#13914725)
The lack of 5.1 support is not due to a lack of competence. It's due to the relatively small number of people who have a 5.1 setup. Basic product management.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by awinder on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:05AM (#13914793)
Do you have marketshare numbers? I mean, soundbars would get an audio bump out of the upgrade, and theres egads of those sold. This is also "basic product management" until 1 competitor offers it, and then it becomes a wedge issue, so I'm not convinced that skipping table-stakes features is completely wise. It's also a wedge issue for people to subscribe to any of these services coming from OTA / Cable / Satellite, so if that's the competitive market place, again, I'm not sure it's a great product management decision.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by izacus on Monday March 20, 2017 @12:29PM (#13915474)
What is this "small number"? A few millions of potential customers with (now rather cheapish) home cinema systems?
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by dirtbox on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:37AM (#13914547)
Apple are superb at introducing aging, but specialized tech to the mainstream masses.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by wnevets on Monday March 20, 2017 @01:45PM (#13916128)
I'm still waiting for the Apple TV set that jobs invented on his deathbed.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by mkhalil on Monday March 20, 2017 @01:48PM (#13916152)
I'm still waiting for the Apple TV to have gigibit ethernet. Its wireless is faster than its wired interface.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by nsxwolf on Monday March 20, 2017 @01:40PM (#13916083)
Apple can push AR onto their huge installed base of iPhones. People who have no idea what AR is will discover the feature and start using it. Only Apple and Google have an advantage like that.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by Eridrus on Monday March 20, 2017 @10:45AM (#13914613)
I have to say, this makes a whole lot more sense than an Apple car though, for which they have to start from square one on all the relevant parts.
Re:Apple is betting on augmented reality by collyw on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:23AM (#13914924)
To be fair they did it with phones.