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Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by austenallred on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:19PM (#13895198)
I'm confused by this. My brother has an office in downtown SLC near the Rio Grande building, and it's pretty clear when I visit him that there are hundreds of homeless people living in that neighborhood alone. Pioneer Park is also covered in homeless people.

If that is less than 200 people either I don't understand what "homeless" means or something is... off. How does one define "chronic homelessness?"

I really want it to be true. I have seen first hand how hard so many people work to help the homeless; through nonprofits, the government, and the LDS Church. But declaring "victory" over homelessness rings pretty hollow if you walk the streets of Salt Lake City.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by nsnick on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:34PM (#13895342)
Salt Lake City has a lot of seasonal homeless, people who come for the summer and leave for the winter. Seasonal homeless are not counted as chronic homeless.

There are no homeless people anywhere else in the state so the ones you see in Salt Lake are it.

Not all panhandlers are homeless. Most of the homeless in Salt Lake City seem to disappear at night. There are no massive homeless camps like you see in San Francisco, Portland and Seattle. A lot of the panhandlers in Salt Lake have houses and consider panhandling to be their day job. https://www.ksl.com/?sid=27782692

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by jonknee on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:05PM (#13895707)
Having Winter weather that will kill people sure makes not counting seasonal homeless a great way to say you don't have any homeless problems.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by nsnick on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:14PM (#13895802)
Its actually even better than that. Because the tourist season in Salt Lake City is winter, there are no homeless when the tourists are there.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by trhway on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:42PM (#13896115)
Also shipping your homeless and/or mentally ill to CA.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by paulddraper on Friday March 17, 2017 @02:36PM (#13896654)
Wha? Why CA? Las Vegas is way closer.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by dragonwriter on Friday March 17, 2017 @02:39PM (#13896685)
Nevada has been caught shipping theirs to CA, so that's still shipping them to CA, just less directly.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by bostonvaulter2 on Friday March 17, 2017 @04:58PM (#13897947)
Really? Do you have a reference?
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by dragonwriter on Friday March 17, 2017 @05:21PM (#13898103)
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by eco on Friday March 17, 2017 @05:53PM (#13898306)
That's pretty funny because Nevada accused Utah of shipping their homeless there in the run up to the 2002 Olympics.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by BatFastard on Saturday March 18, 2017 @11:37AM (#13901715)
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by Forbo on Friday March 17, 2017 @02:55PM (#13896854)
The homeless population in Provo is starting to become more visible, particularly around University & Center. I've encountered a few tent encampments around the city, as well as witnessed people sleeping overnight in Provo's Pioneer Park (Center & 5th West, not to be confused with SLC's Pioneer Park).

Edit: I just remembered a city ordinance was passed specifically in response to the tent camping. I'll see if I can dig up a link for reference. Many homeless advocacy groups were quite upset with the decision.

Edit 2: Found an article. This is much more recent that the OP article, which dates from 2015.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/4976771-155/provo-city-ordinance-...

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by dasil003 on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:50PM (#13895538)
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by jdormit on Friday March 17, 2017 @02:04PM (#13896356)
Have you ever driven by the streets next to Pioneer park downtown? On a certain street by the homeless shelter it's basically Tent City
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by tuxxy on Saturday March 18, 2017 @01:37AM (#13900067)
>There are no massive homeless camps like you see in San Francisco, Portland and Seattle.

Uhh, you sure about that? I literally ride my bike by two almost weekly downtown. They are right off the exit ramp for I-15.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by ythn on Friday March 17, 2017 @06:14PM (#13898442)
> There are no homeless people anywhere else in the state so the ones you see in Salt Lake are it.

I've seen panhandlers in Provo before on Center street (not sure if they were homeless or just panhandling)

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by broahmed on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:26PM (#13895264)
_Chronic_ homelessness is what's been reduced.

From the article:

"As of 2015, the state can just about declare victory: The population of chronically homeless people has dropped by 91 percent."

...

"In fact, Utah still has a substantial homeless problem. The overall homeless population is around 14,000."

"The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness."

...

"By implementing a model known as Housing First, Utah has reduced that number from nearly 2,000 people in 2005, to fewer than 200 now."

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by TheGRS on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:07PM (#13895725)
Yes thank you, the article does contain a lot more info than just the headline. Homelessness is a more complex issue than it appears at the surface. There a many stages of homelessness and different demographics of it.

A shelter I contribute to here in Portland focuses specifically on homeless families who have recently fell on hard times and tries to address getting them back on their feet and into sustainable jobs before they enter a vicious circle and are unable to get back into the system at all. I don't believe those families would have counted toward the chronic homeless number.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by austenallred on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:18PM (#13895850)
Of course, but how is chronic defined and measured, and how has that changed historically? I've heard that the definition is ever-changing. I read the article
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by bluehawk on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:41PM (#13896110)
Did you really? The fifth paragraph defines it:

"The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness."

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by theophrastus on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:24PM (#13895242)
Having relatives in city government I have overheard that Utah's proud achievement was accomplished by "adjustments made to their demographic surveys". And that this was seen as a very economical solution to the problem.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by stevecalifornia on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:33PM (#13895334)
I feel like cynical hear-say like this adds nothing to the conversation. It just tries to smugly diminish good news with no proof.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by eropple on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:38PM (#13895378)
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by moosey on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:20PM (#13895876)
There is nothing in that analysis that suggests that the reductions aren't real. Quoting in "The Data" portion:

> Figure 2 shows that, measured by its point-in-time counts, Utah experienced a less dramatic, but still impressive 71 percent decrease in chronic homelessness since 2005. Yet should we trust even the point-in-time counts?

Yes. If you want to challenge them, go out and do point in time counts rather than suggest that someone is lying. In fact, challenging them in the manner that the writer is is fundamentally dishonest, suggesting again that research by its very nature shouldn't be trusted.

> In fact, as Figure 3 shows, there were major drop-offs in chronic homelessness during two separate periods: 2009–10 and 2014–15. If not for these two periods, chronic homelessness in Utah would have increased over the past decade.

Just because reductions appear during specific time periods during a research period does nothing to deny the fact that overall reductions occurred. This is like suggesting that a small uptick in violent crime means that crime hasn't reduced at all over the last several decades.

The entire article is anti-science, as the AEI all too often is. If you want to challenge research, you don't do it by suggesting someone is lying, you do it by using the scientific method. AEI really doesn't do any of that, it is primarily there to challenge research to protect support for conservative ideals while making them seem as if they are well researched.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by enoch_r on Friday March 17, 2017 @02:38PM (#13896677)
They're not saying "reductions appeared during specific time periods, therefore they weren't real."

Reductions appeared during specific years, and Utah also changed the way it measured chronic homelessness in those specific years, in ways that we'd expect to reduce measured chronic homelessness. Specifically:

- in 2010, Utah stopped counting people in "transitional housing" as chronically homeless.

- in 2015, the Salt Lake region implemented a "new process for confirming whether individuals are chronically homeless."

> If you want to challenge research, you don't do it by suggesting someone is lying, you do it by using the scientific method.

If you want to challenge research, you don't do it by attacking the motives of the researchers or by brutally misstating their arguments to make them look ridiculous. You don't pretend that the research is just "suggesting someone is lying" when it's not. If "anti-science" means "willing to look into potential methodological issues with data provided by the government" then sign me up.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by moosey on Friday March 17, 2017 @05:17PM (#13898077)
But this is what the AEI does. It produces op-ed information dolled up to look like research. I personally believe that the motives of the "think"-tank AEI should be held up first and foremost when discussing 'articles' that they produce.

They have an end goal in mind: uphold or attack research to support conservative ideologies.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by acover on Friday March 17, 2017 @06:33PM (#13898564)
Do you have a source for that? They appear to be a reputable, though conservative, think-tank [1].

I cannot find a rebuttal of the author's interpretation that the 91% statistic is largely due to reclassification. The author appears reasonable. Here is a quote from him:

"The state has rightly focused most intensely on the homeless who sleep on the street and who have serious problems with mental illness and addiction. Hundreds of people have been moved from the street and shelters into housing. Whether the overall numbers have plummeted the way Utah reports should not distract from these positive steps [2]

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Enterprise_Institute#...

[2] - http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865650317/Utahs-big-drop-...

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by stevecalifornia on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:45PM (#13895468)
Ok, great. Then post facts instead of "My family overheard..." I shouldn't have to call out hear-say to get more substantial data.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by theophrastus on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:53PM (#13895571)
I've always subscribed to Carl Sagan's "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". That is, the burden of proof lies with those who assert a surprising claim. If you wish to assert that dramatically reducing "Homelessness by 91 Percent" isn't an extraordinary claim, then on that basis one could consider having to support this freely admitted hearsay, but if otherwise then the burden of proof ought to be on them.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by sounds on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:02PM (#13895673)
Sure, the burden is on them to make this real, but not for them to prove it to _you_.

If they want to prove to the chronically homeless that they can get a home, they only need to follow through with the home.

Or perhaps they want to prove to their constituents that the number of chronically homeless has diminished. Easy enough: tell their constituents where to go to count homeless people. Again, it's not incumbent upon them to count, or even to provide easy access to the location. Just give verifiable steps and expect your constituents to do some legwork. (Most won't, but maybe a news crew will.)

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by ktRolster on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:22PM (#13895222)
Not every homeless person is chronically homeless. A lot of homeless people have skills (so don't look down on them), but they're going through a rough time. After a while, they pick themselves up, go into rehab or whatever, and become non-homeless again.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by ekianjo on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:28PM (#13895297)
> Not every homeless person is chronically homeless.

That's completely biased though. You can only know who is chronically homeless AFTER the fact. So this whole celebration of reducing chronic homelessness is more likely just a PR piece.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by Graphon1 on Friday March 17, 2017 @02:06PM (#13896372)
> this whole celebration of reducing chronic homelessness is more likely just a PR piece.

No... that's not a fair comment.

We are measuring it. People are constantly going through rough patches and become homeless. In some cases, most cases, they get help "soon" and get into a home. In other cases, they don't. This article is about the latter cases.

Your statement suggests that the efforts to reduce chronic homelessness compete with efforts to help the temporarily homeless. The article doesn't suggest that is the case.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by pmiller2 on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:09PM (#13895739)
I don't know what you're saying here. The definition of "chronically homeless" is perfectly clear; it's just that you can't look at someone and say "yep, that person fits the definition."
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by Notre1 on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:17PM (#13895844)
After what "fact"?

That seems like a fairly straight-forward statistic based on a snapshot in time (e.g. when you do the survey): Has the person in question been: (a) living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and (b) has a "disabling condition" (e.g. serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness)

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by binxbolling on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:25PM (#13895259)
FTFA:

"In fact, Utah still has a substantial homeless problem. The overall homeless population is around 14,000.

The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness."

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by felixmc on Friday March 17, 2017 @06:04PM (#13898383)
Your comment is a little misleading...Rio Grande and Pioneer park are literally right next to each other. And other than those couple streets in that corner of downtown, you'd be hardpressed to find any other gathering of homeless people.

The Road Home (mentioned in the article) and a Catholic food bank and other homeless services are located in that area, hence the reason for the homeless density in that area.

source: I live in downtown salt lake

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by Karunamon on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:21PM (#13895215)
One thing that sticks in my mind after a business trip to SLC (SaltConf last year) were the ubiquitous red signs urging people to turn away panhandlers. If people actually take notice, I'd be willing to bet this results in the problem being hidden a lot more than it is in some other cities.

The admittedly surface impression I got was that the city is hostile to the homeless.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by suresk on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:27PM (#13895275)
Doubtful. I used to work in downtown SLC and would get hit up for cash 5 or 6 times per day. Far more than when I've visited other cities like San Francisco or New York. Even in the suburbs, you've got people sitting at the Target parking lot exit begging for money.

I don't think anyone pays attention to the signs.

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by douche on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:26PM (#13895267)
I was very disappointed that ordinances to restrict panhandling in medians were overturned in Portland, ME in recent years. There's no need of that. If you are willing to work, there is always work to be done for a decent wage, (although possibly less than the absurd level minimum wage has climbed to).
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by bitJericho on Friday March 17, 2017 @12:40PM (#13895400)
The minimum wage nowadays is just outrageous.

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-...

Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by st3v3r on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:11PM (#13895772)
Anyone who claims the minimum wage level is absurd has clearly never tried to live on it.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by ensignavenger on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:57PM (#13896261)
I have in the past lived for years off of far less than the Federal minimum wage. It helped that I was healthy and didn't have any medical expenses- but the ridiculous cost of health care is a different debate...
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by cryptarch on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:37PM (#13897253)
Are any of housing, hygeine products, food, clothing , transportation or internet expensive, or is it just healthcare costs that are out of control?
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by vacri on Friday March 17, 2017 @06:18PM (#13898475)
Food in the US is incredibly cheap. Not high quality at the cheap end, but incredibly cheap. Same with clothing.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by douche on Friday March 17, 2017 @01:30PM (#13895988)
Last i checked they had increased the minimum wage beyond what trained heavy equipment operators were making. That is absurd, no matter how you slice it.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by st3v3r on Friday March 17, 2017 @02:08PM (#13896395)
No, it's not. For one, other people having things worse off does not mean that certain people should not be trying to better themselves. For two, if that were true, then the heavy equipment operators should be asking for raises, as they now have the leverage to go to a less demanding job for more pay.
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by lostlogin on Friday March 17, 2017 @02:32PM (#13896622)
How can someone earn less than the minimum while in work? Is the minimum not required to be paid? If that is the case, what is the minimum for?
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by InitialLastName on Friday March 17, 2017 @04:22PM (#13897641)
Do you mean absurd that trained heavy equipment operators are making so little?
Re:How Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness by Mz on Friday March 17, 2017 @06:08PM (#13898410)
The article states quite clearly:

Utah still has ... a substantial ... homeless population ... around 14,000.

The chronically homeless ... are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness.