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Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by exabrial on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:02PM (#13858975)
My opinion on hn was unpopular when I spoke out against Apple during the San Bernardino affair, because the FBI seemed to have the proper DOJ signoff and I think the motivation was obvious.

However this is unacceptable. We are a society of laws, and one of them is due process. Spying likely started during the Bush years, and Obama somehow escaped scrutiny for continuing the program (even with Snowden leaks). Hopefully it finally gets shut down during the Trump administration, even if merely because the media seems far less tolerant of his transgressions.

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by JumpCrisscross on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:14PM (#13859107)
> the FBI seemed to have the proper DOJ signoff [in San Bernardino]

Due process means both sides get to argue their cases in front of a court. Apple chose to do that [1]. Presumably, the FBI figured it would lose and so dropped the case [2]. Apple contesting an executive branch order in a court is different from directors and employees at the NSA deciding they can act in defiance of our courts and laws.

[1] https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/18/technology/apple-timot...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/28/apple-fbi...

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by mattnewton on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:13PM (#13859091)
Your opinion was probably unpopular because DOJ signoff does not make good encryption with a master key any more technologically possible, and HN is a very pro-encryption crowd as a technical means to privacy. The disagreement for me is not about the warrant process but about why this warrant would be different. I think the warrant should not have been granted and needed to be fought in court. And the great thing about the warrant was, since it notified the defendant and could be eventually made public we could have this debate.

I think (hope?) we are all totally on the same page about warrants being necessary. I wouldn't hold your breath about due process coming back under trump, media intolerance hasn't changed a lot. What has is direct legal action on behalf of citizens, from states and agencies like the ACLU. I urge everyone to contribute to the EFF, and the ACLU, and let them, and your state legislature know this is a key issue to you.

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by luxuryballs on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:46PM (#13860311)
I've always felt like the intent of a warrant was to prove to ME that the police were authorized to search my property. I'm thinking back to when people had to physically show up and be allowed entry into your estate.

If my feeling on warrants match up with the true intention of the law (as it was originally written) then no-knock warrants are suspect as well as any kind of secret warrant to tap your phone/computer.

I think even with warrants we still have an issue, because what's really stopping them from getting a warrant in this day and age?

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by pdkl95 on Monday March 13, 2017 @03:32PM (#13861486)
The 4th Amendment doesn't just require "a warrant". The English government was using "writs of assistance", a type of general warrant that granted broad powers. As a protection against that type of easily-abused power, the founders created a set of requirements that limit the scope of allowed warrants.

    ... and no Warrants shall issue,
    but upon probable cause,
    supported by Oath or affirmation,
    and particularly describing the place to be searched,
    and the persons or things to be seized.
While a judge might deny some extremely bad requests for a warrant, the point isn't about a judge denying warrants or proving anything to anyone. That kind of legal arguing can happen later in an actual court. Instead, warrants - as allowed under the 4th Amendment - establish the limits of power.

The violation of personal rights is allowed, because of specific reason ("probable cause"), in a particular place, limited to specified people or things. These limitations slow down the application of power and (hypothetically) create opportunities to fight back when authority is exceeded.

> no-knock warrants

I suspect those are constitutional when the are properly targeted to a specific event/person/etc. The tactics used to implement the search isn't limited by the warrant.

> secret warrant

That's may be a problem, but it may depend on the specifics.

> what's really stopping them from getting a warrant

Generally nothing, but that's the wrong question. If police are making many requests for specific warrants, that's the warrant system working as intended.

However, playing word games to pretend wiretapping everybody isn't "seizing" data until an agent looks at it is exactly the type of general warrant that is banned by the 4th Amendment.

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by fnordfnordfnord on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:14PM (#13862973)
>I suspect those are constitutional when the are properly targeted to a specific event/person/etc. The tactics used to implement the search isn't limited by the warrant.

Almost every no knock is executed in such a way that 'proper' targeting is impossible.

A warrant cannot magically excuse police from their improper conduct. It took a deaf dumb blind and ignorant bench for that.

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by mattnewton on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:55PM (#13860439)
The intent of the warrant is to provide a check on the power of the executive branch, where hopefully the jusdge's incentives are divorced enough from the police's so that they can make a decision that is in the best interests of society and not just the police.
Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by uptown on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:14PM (#13859111)
"Hopefully it finally gets shut down during the Trump administration, even if merely because the media seems far less tolerant of his transgressions."

I haven't seen any indication that either party is looking to end these practices. It's hard to shut down "big brother" when it's your turn to play big brother. Furthermore, this doesn't exactly seem the the administration that's likely to dial-back intrusion into people's personal lives:

"U.S. House bill threatens employees with fines if they refuse to undergo genetic testing"

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2017/03/13/gene...

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by joering2 on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:44PM (#13860266)
> Hopefully it finally gets shut down during the Trump administration

Are you insane?? Didn't you hear many of Trump speeches saying that NSA doesn't have enough power??? And that we need to monitor more, especially certain groups but pretty much everyone as well?

And that companies like Apple should be forced to decrypt or have tools to decrypt their own technology.

Bush made surveillance wanted by public fear because of 911. Obama made it further legal by not doing anything against it and praising NSA as "your friendly neighbor". Trump is here to make it more invasive and to make it stay for good!

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by anigbrowl on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:24PM (#13860789)
Spying likely started during the Bush years

It got worse during the Bush administration, but government surveillance isn't a new thing.

Hopefully it finally gets shut down during the Trump administration

Not sure if serious

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by wallace_f on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:14PM (#13864672)
He must be kidding. Trump has said repeatedly "I want surveillance..."
Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by UnpossibleJim on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:55PM (#13859649)
Not that I endorse this reality, but we have been, for quite a long time, a society that has one set of laws for certain segments of society and another set for disparate segments of society.
Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by nerdponx on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:27PM (#13859276)
Haven't we been spying on our own citizens since WWII? Or at least since J Edgar Hoover and thr McCarthy era?
Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by kabdib on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:19PM (#13859960)
Surveillance has been at smaller scale, but increasing as the technology behind the data footprint has moved from punchcards and magtape to farms of SSDs and gigabit optical links.

Hoover didn't know your shoe size. It's likely that the NSA could find that out in seconds to minutes (and I'm not kidding).

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by datatan on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:18PM (#13859948)
McCarthy didn't spy on anyone. He was a Senator not an intel agent. Additionally, McCarthy has been proven right. His estimate was that there were around 20 Soviet agents that had infiltrated the US government at the highest levels. Once the USSR fell and their documents became public it was proven they had well over 200. McCarthy was right but people still tarnish his name out of spite.

Hoover was an SOB far worse than McCarthy ever could have been but is still revered by many in the intel services. His name still adorns the FBI HQ building and other than accusations of cross dressing, no ones dug in to truly uncover the evil things that man did.

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by wfo on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:02PM (#13860523)
McCarthy's name isn't being tarnished out of spite. It's because he started a disgusting witch hunt with blacklists, demagoguery, etc to hunt down anyone who committed thoughtcrime (i.e. communist sympathy) that ruined the lives of many, many innocent people and turned the country down a very dark path.

The fact that there were soviet agents in the government is mostly tangential. It was because he went around saying there's a secret list of enemies, and that anyone who is left of center is probably one of them, that he was so horrible. It was because he made disgusting personal attacks and aired the dirty laundry of anyone who crossed him. It was because of his deep hatred for homosexuals and anyone who wasn't right wing.

He was one of the more vile characters in US history. J. Edgar Hoover was much worse, I'll concede; Hoover was actually a traitor, the worst in US history, and should have been jailed or executed. But McCarthy deserves every bit of tarnishing he gets, and a whole lot more that he doesn't get because people have forgotten.

Re:Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communicatio... by vacri on Monday March 13, 2017 @04:48PM (#13862193)
Obama didn't spy on anyone, he was a president, not an intel agent. Bush didn't invade Iraq, he was a president, not a soldier.