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Re:The science of Westworld by chvid on Saturday January 07, 2017 @08:15AM (#13343977)
I really enjoyed westworld and found the coverage of ai amazingly not stupid as opposed to most other sci-fi shows.

However the biggest idea in the show was the relationship between god (Anthony Hopkins), self (the robots) and consciousness as an extension of inner conversation.

I had to look up the idea:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)

Re:The science of Westworld by codewithcheese on Saturday January 07, 2017 @08:39AM (#13344068)
I really like this idea. However, i've had lots of conscious experiences with a quiet mind
Re:The science of Westworld by toupeira on Saturday January 07, 2017 @08:51AM (#13344113)
Read more closely, the hypothesis is that bicameralism was an evolutionary stage in human consciousness that broke down at some point in antiquity. So it would entirely be expected that you don't experience it anymore :)
Re:The science of Westworld by nitrogen on Saturday January 07, 2017 @06:04PM (#13347203)
Bicameralism, if it was ever real, might still occur under some religious settings. When I was much younger, still religious, and hadn't heard of the bicameral mind, I noticed that in a certain spiritual frame of mind my internal monologue became more of an internal dialogue, where I could pose questions and perceive a subvocalized answer within my thought stream as coming from "elsewhere". I'm not sure how to reproduce the effect, but it wasn't necessarily useful as I couldn't get any information I didn't already know.
Re:The science of Westworld by benevol on Saturday January 07, 2017 @07:02PM (#13347428)
> I noticed that in a certain spiritual frame of mind my internal monologue became more of an internal dialogue, where I could pose questions and perceive a subvocalized answer within my thought stream as coming from "elsewhere".

That was almost certainly one of your spiritual guides talking to you. Don't give that treasure up, you don't need to be "religious" to continue it. You just need to accept your spiritual dimension (that we all have), which is usually much easier for us when we're kids. Once we grow up, we develop our ego further, which acts like a barrier between ourselves and our spiritual dimension (i.e our guides). Btw, a substance like LSD or psilocybin can break down the ego temporarily and thus open you up further to experience your (natural) "link" to the "other side". And this is the reason why a lot of people report experiences of spiritual nature when they consume such substances (in the correct set and settings). Daily meditation practice is also a very good idea to keep it going.

Re:The science of Westworld by ColanR on Saturday January 07, 2017 @09:48PM (#13347966)
> it wasn't necessarily useful as I couldn't get any information I didn't already know

Don't forget to read to the end...this isn't a 'spiritual' thing.

Re:The science of Westworld by lobster_johnson on Saturday January 07, 2017 @06:04PM (#13347201)
That would imply that everybody on earth "evolved" away from bicameralism at the same time.
Re:The science of Westworld by azakai on Saturday January 07, 2017 @06:57PM (#13347411)
Indeed, and that's one reason why the theory is considered discredited.

Still, it lives on. Not many incorrect ideas do. Perhaps it's because it is a more concise and elegant answer to several unresolved questions (why did self-awareness arise? why did religions change at that particular time?) in ways we don't have any other good answers for.

It's a brilliant idea, that sadly happens to be wrong.

Re:The science of Westworld by ColanR on Saturday January 07, 2017 @09:50PM (#13347972)
> why did religions change at that particular time?

Wait, what? Sounds cool and I'd love a source on that.

Re:The science of Westworld by azakai on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:51PM (#13348342)
The Wikipedia article summarizes it,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)#The_...

Basically, before 3,000 years or so, it was common for people to hear the gods talk. Somehow, that changed and it became far more rare, with only a few (prophets and such) claiming to actually hear the gods' voices.

The bicameral theory is that there are still such people today, schizophrenics, and it is one half of their brain talking to the other - but they perceive it as an external agency. And that somehow this was the common state of humanity in the past, but changed. We became self-aware - we recognized the internal voice as part of ourselves.

This does actually fit many historical facts well. Still, it is likely wrong for other reasons.

Re:The science of Westworld by ColanR on Sunday January 08, 2017 @10:02AM (#13349911)
Thanks. That's fascinating.
Re:The science of Westworld by nitrogen on Saturday January 07, 2017 @06:06PM (#13347212)
Not necessarily. It's conceivable that a cultural or linguistic change swept quickly through the population, but it wouldn't have to happen instantaneously, and might even continue in some way (see my other comment).
Re:The science of Westworld by azakai on Saturday January 07, 2017 @06:59PM (#13347420)
Perhaps, but it wouldn't explain isolated human populations, of which we have several in the relevant time frames.
Re:The science of Westworld by sp332 on Saturday January 07, 2017 @10:20AM (#13344506)
Yeah I don't think the idea is taken seriously for humans. But it's an interesting way to program a robot.
Re:The science of Westworld by maroonblazer on Saturday January 07, 2017 @10:04AM (#13344423)
>and consciousness as an extension of inner conversation.

To me it seemed like they barely touched on this. I had high hopes for the show in that we'd get some interesting perspectives on what a world with AI might be like, the moral and ethical issues associated with sentient-seeming machines, etc. Some kind of "Humans"/"Äkta människor" meets "Black Mirror". But that never materialized. To make matters worse the slipshod storytelling and lackluster character development became a distraction such that it made it difficult to take the AI aspects all that seriously.

Re:The science of Westworld by JackFr on Saturday January 07, 2017 @10:32AM (#13344576)
I think that was one of the successes of the series. There are such good philosophical questions introduced, but the potential to address them in a ham-fisted, facile, middle-school-smart way is so great they made the right choice in raising, but not addressing them.
Re:The science of Westworld by uberrr on Saturday January 07, 2017 @01:12PM (#13345604)
What aspects of the storytelling did you find slipshod? I felt it was quite compelling and well paced.
Re:The science of Westworld by UnoriginalGuy on Saturday January 07, 2017 @10:28AM (#13344557)
> and consciousness as an extension of inner conversation.

>> To me it seemed like they barely touched on this.

You may want to finish all of the first season then. It is the major theme.

Re:The science of Westworld by maroonblazer on Saturday January 07, 2017 @02:48PM (#13346185)
> You may want to finish all of the first season then. It is the major theme.

I did, and your point nails it. It felt like something they tacked on to the last episode or two as opposed to being woven throughout the entire season.

Re:The science of Westworld by FullMtlAlcoholc on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:53PM (#13348346)
>I had high hopes for the show in that we'd get some interesting perspectives on what a world with AI might be like, the moral and ethical issues associated with sentient-seeming machines

Was the eponymous theme park not enough?

Re:The science of Westworld by edoloughlin on Saturday January 07, 2017 @08:45AM (#13344090)
The You Are Not So Smart podcast touched on this recently: https://youarenotsosmart.com/2016/12/02/yanss-090-questionin...
Re:The science of Westworld by drdeadringer on Saturday January 07, 2017 @10:43AM (#13344628)
Robert Sawyer's WWW trilogy Incorporated bicameralism into the trilogy's AI development.
Re:The science of Westworld by rubber_duck on Saturday January 07, 2017 @08:42AM (#13344079)
>coverage of ai amazingly not stupid as opposed to most other sci-fi shows

If they were capable of that level of AI they would have reached exponential growth shortly - to suggest someone would use it to build theme parks is downright retarded.

Like you said - AI is a plot device in that show, just another form of "magic" that lets them ramble on about consciousness while pretending to be sciency.

Re:The science of Westworld by TeMPOraL on Saturday January 07, 2017 @08:50AM (#13344108)
I think the best coverage of AI in visual fiction so far is Person of Interest. Interestingly, the show was made by the same team writing Westworld. PoI starts slowly and pretends to be a cop procedural with a little bit of sci-fi sprinkled on top, but quickly evolves into treatise on surveillance state and artificial intelligence.

Fun fact: PoI basically predicted Snowden and his revelations - the episode with NSA whistleblower aired before Snowden did his thing.

Re:The science of Westworld by ghaff on Saturday January 07, 2017 @08:54AM (#13344130)
I got a bit bored with PoI at first but I've heard enough good things that I really should dive back into it.
Re:The science of Westworld by dagw on Saturday January 07, 2017 @09:05AM (#13344171)
PoI really suffered from being on network television with their really long seasons. Had it been done with only 10 episodes a season and all the filler removed it would have been much stronger.
Re:The science of Westworld by psyc on Saturday January 07, 2017 @09:14AM (#13344214)
Since it's a TV series, there are a lot of generic filler episodes that are just like Law & Order whodunnits + AI. But the high points, which eventually take center stage in latter seasons, are indeed the best depiction of AI and the issues surrounding it that I've ever seen on a screen.
Re:The science of Westworld by lobster_johnson on Saturday January 07, 2017 @06:13PM (#13347236)
Someone should compile (if possible) a list of essential episodes that takes out the fillers. The equivalent X-Files list is great.

I tried PoI myself and couldn't get through it, because it was just so dull -- run-of-the-mill low budget procedural with that glossy network-TV feeling of Hollywood reality to it (e.g., everyone in the show looks like a model, except eggheads or villains, where they're allowed to cast someone unattractive).

Several people have told me it gets much better, but I just don't want to have to wade through all the mediocre episodes.

Re:The science of Westworld by ghaff on Saturday January 07, 2017 @06:47PM (#13347366)
It's been done: http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/04/22/person-of-interest-th...

No idea how good the list is or how well it works.

Re:The science of Westworld by Apocryphon on Saturday January 07, 2017 @02:26PM (#13346025)
> to suggest someone would use it to build theme parks is downright retarded

What's the current primary use for machine learning? Determining consumer behavior? Guessing at which ads to display?

Re:The science of Westworld by simias on Saturday January 07, 2017 @01:16PM (#13345624)
I did find it strange at first too, certainly there would be better use for such a level of AI than building Disneyland 2.0. But it's actually explained over the course of the season.

The character played by Hopkins tried his hardest to keep the technology within the park. That seems pretty odd at first but his reasons to do so are stated explicitly in the final episode.

Many people try to get the technology out but they all seem to have failed so far.

Re:The science of Westworld by sp332 on Saturday January 07, 2017 @10:22AM (#13344518)
Why would a robot inherently want to make a better robot, or change itself?
Re:The science of Westworld by Almaviva on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:08AM (#13344768)
If it has any general goal at all that it takes seriously, it will be better achieved with self-improvement.
Re:The science of Westworld by pharrington on Saturday January 07, 2017 @12:06PM (#13345137)
How much wattage needs to be spent increasing its intelligence? How many watts will that save in achieving its original goals?
Re:The science of Westworld by rubber_duck on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:20AM (#13344832)
Who said anything about a robot wanting to do anything ? The creator would obviously - he would certainly not build a theme park with his robots. Imagine for one second that you could build such level of AI and robots - do you really think you would need to build a theme park to finance it - WTF ?!? It's like when the AI used human brains as electricity generators in matrix - but at least that movie had cool music and fight scenes.
Re:The science of Westworld by sp332 on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:40AM (#13344954)
They were trying to produce consciousness, not raw intelligence. The park was for the robots at first. After Arnold killed himself, Ford opened the park to humans to get money in a pinch without giving up control of the bots.
Re:The science of Westworld by rubber_duck on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:56AM (#13345072)
You don't get it - even if you're some dreamer scientist genius who's trying to build whatever - if they actually got to that level of intelligence the tech would have been "acquired" by military/other companies/whoever and very quickly used for self improvement to get better results. If you could build that level of AI you are absolutely not building a open access theme park to fund it - how's that even remotely plausible to you ?
Re:The science of Westworld by glenstein on Saturday January 07, 2017 @04:05PM (#13346626)
>if they actually got to that level of intelligence the tech would have been "acquired" by military/other companies/whoever

I don't doubt that that would be a very real consideration, a pressure out there in the world that anyone developing AI would have to contend with.

I think the problem is with treating this like an inevitability. You are always going to deal with the idiosyncracies of the world: personalities, motivations, contingent world circumstances.

And beyond that, I think we have to keep in mind that this is, after all, fiction. The writers may arbitrarily structure their world in a manner that puts a spotlight on things they feel are interesting. And, within the limits of that spotlight, they may consider things like artificial intelligence in a way that is sincere to the subset of futurist considerations they are interested in investigating. And perhaps that involves suppressing plausible forces we would expect to see, such as military and corporate interest in advanced AI tech.

Re:The science of Westworld by noiv on Saturday January 07, 2017 @12:52PM (#13345464)
> plausible

Can't imagine the character played by A. Hopkins would even pick up a phone call from military.

Re:The science of Westworld by gnaritas on Saturday January 07, 2017 @01:55PM (#13345847)
With that kind of tech, they wouldn't allow him the option of choosing. It'd be classified immediately as a national security issue and the government would assert ownership via eminent domain. We do not live in a world where a lone genius would be allowed to do what happens in that show.
Re:The science of Westworld by sp332 on Saturday January 07, 2017 @02:05PM (#13345911)
Aside from literally nuclear tech, when has a government confiscated tech in this way? What you're describing is completely unprecedented.
Re:The science of Westworld by haspoken on Saturday January 07, 2017 @08:24PM (#13347690)
It has done so over 5000 times so far just under the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act

Re:The science of Westworld by sp332 on Saturday January 07, 2017 @09:59PM (#13347999)
Wow, I didn't realize that had continued past the second world war.
Re:The science of Westworld by pharrington on Saturday January 07, 2017 @02:30PM (#13346065)
Even nuclear tech was specially developed with government funding. P and GGP are arguing against the fantasy show because it doesn't behaving according to their own fantasy.

edit: In fact half the time tech moves in the opposite direction. Going onto the internet to argue that potentially civilization-changing technology won't be used largely for entertainment because it'll end up exclusively owned by government shows a profound lack of awareness.

Re:The science of Westworld by sp332 on Saturday January 07, 2017 @05:19PM (#13346986)
I mean if you start making a nuke the government will come and physically take it away from you :)
Re:The science of Westworld by gnaritas on Saturday January 07, 2017 @02:42PM (#13346147)
AI of that level would be unprecedented and far more dangerous than nukes; to think the government wouldn't interfere would be unrealistic.
Re:The science of Westworld by sp332 on Saturday January 07, 2017 @05:17PM (#13346977)
I'm sure there's a pitch to be made, but consciousness doesn't seem to me to be a killer app for the military. In fact Dolores repeatedly refuses to kill people even when it's in her best interest. Only one person has died before the last episode, so how could you convince anyone that it's more dangerous than nukes? The other tech in the show seems pretty advanced so I'm sure the military is doing just fine for themselves. And the people are there because outside life is boring, so there's no cold or hot wars where they need an advantage ASAP.
Re:The science of Westworld by gnaritas on Sunday January 08, 2017 @11:34PM (#13354033)
We're discussing what would be realistic in our world, precisely because what's happening in the show is implausible. How Dolores behaves wouldn't be relevant to this conversation.
Re:The science of Westworld by jack_pp on Saturday January 07, 2017 @03:55PM (#13346581)
The show had cool music and fight scenes as well and the AI is orders of magnitude better represented than in the matrix, have you even seen the show?
Re:The science of Westworld by api on Saturday January 07, 2017 @10:24AM (#13344531)
I love "stupid" questions like this.

We can say that the vast majority of living beings on Earth do not seem to seek any form of radical self improvement beyond ordinary developmental learning and mastery of survival skills. There is no intrinsic reason that there must be an impulse to exceed oneself. Why would AI be different?

Re:The science of Westworld by Almaviva on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:10AM (#13344781)
Most of the smartest humans spend a significant part of their lives in learning and mastery of skills that go beyond survival.
Re:The science of Westworld by jack_pp on Saturday January 07, 2017 @03:52PM (#13346556)
And not all hosts in the show are conscious. I would say that is a great metaphor for our current society, where you could say that the vast majority of humans aren't really conscious. They might eat and have sex and fight to survive, just like a host does. But they don't really comprehend what it means to be alive.

AI's, like humans, need a purpose. The best way of achieving that purpose is by self improvement so any AI which does not self improve to some extent will be replaced by another that will. Just like humans who don't care to self improve eventually don't reproduce enough to spread their genes.

Re:The science of Westworld by sp332 on Saturday January 07, 2017 @05:53PM (#13347158)
Re:The science of Westworld by JackFr on Saturday January 07, 2017 @10:34AM (#13344590)
Why indeed would an AIs motivations even be comprehensible to us.
Re:The science of Westworld by enraged_camel on Saturday January 07, 2017 @02:22PM (#13346007)
Because an AI would be created by humans, and would therefore be modeled after human intelligence.

An alien AI, on the other hand, would most likely be incomprehensible to us, at least until we understood the aliens that created it.

Re:The science of Westworld by manmal on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:14AM (#13344805)
Because we have neural networks in our heads. Sure, very differently structured, semantically and physically.
Re:The science of Westworld by EpicEng on Saturday January 07, 2017 @10:16AM (#13344485)
>while pretending to be sciency.

It's almost as though it's science fiction...

Re:The science of Westworld by rubber_duck on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:12AM (#13344793)
Well I guess there are different kinds of science fiction - sci-fi that's obviously fiction and doesn't try to pretend to be realistic - Alien, Star Wars, etc. - I'm fine with this - it's just the author taking you in to his own fantasy world - just like Game of Thrones doesn't try to describe how dragons get to be aerodynamic or explain the white walkers superior strength by using dumbed down science.

Then there's Sci-Fi that's actually beleivable - like The Martian - I'm OK with this as well.

But then there's this pseudo-sciency trying to look serious while actually being BS part like Interstellar, The Arrival, etc. The main point of science there is not to be a fictional setting but trying to give a feeling of realism trough sci/techbabble. I don't even mind cheap sci-fi drama movies, for example I liked The Fountain, but when they try to pretend they are realistic that's what breaks the immersion for me completely because I start to critically evaluate the plot and it just falls apart.

Re:The science of Westworld by platz on Saturday January 07, 2017 @01:34PM (#13345727)
> trying to look serious while actually being BS

I think you missed the point entirely of the films you mentioned

Re:The science of Westworld by rubber_duck on Saturday January 07, 2017 @03:17PM (#13346370)
That's the point of SF in those movies. Remove SF elements and you're left with cheap dramas and cheesy themes (love beats everything yaay) - so they wrapped them in to SF elements and tried to make them look serious and deep with pseudoscience - which just annoys me and triggers me when people buy in to it :)
Re:The science of Westworld by platz on Saturday January 07, 2017 @03:26PM (#13346424)
:)