Working as a software engineer in Paris, and having most of my friends doing the same, I think your were juste living in a bubble.
Furthemore, french people don't go to university to study engineering, they go to engineering schools, which are dedicated structures. Some are public, generalist, and really famous (École Polytechnique where Fabrice Bellard comes from, École Centrale where VLC was created, École des Mines) but there are also a lot of smaller private and specialized school (Epitech, Efrei, Epita or “42” for computer sciences for instance).
In France, people mostly go to university to study law, medicine, social sciences or humanities.
E.g. for Polytechnique : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_%C3%89cole_Polytechniq...
Cost of living is pretty high (still less than London but the gap narrowed in the past few years). Count €1000+ if you want to live in a comfy flat in the inner city, which you do if you want to have reasonable commute duration, and enjoy the nightlife/culture.
I've been living in Paris for 3 years now, and before I lived almost a year in Boston, 6 month in Berlin and several month in London. Paris is really close to London on many topics (cost of living, commute time, nightlife, cultural events) but the quality of life is way better (weather, food) and Paris as a city is really beautiful. Berlin is really different from Paris, but really enjoyable also ! But eastern Germany's economy is still lagging far behind overall Germany and Berlin's job market is quite poor.
The biggest problem I have with Paris is the real estate, renting a flat is expensive but not extreme, but as soon as you want to buy something, it becomes crazy.
*salaries are usually counted before taxes. With a €40k salary, you'll earn around €28k after all taxes.
To me the real problem with housing in Paris is, landlords request to see 2 years of tax sheet. When coming back from Australia, I just decided it would be too hard for me to find housing in Paris, and created my startup in Lyon.
Landlords are insane in Paris ! I had a friend who made 48k in his first job, he came from Grenoble and his parents weren't rich enough to "vouch" for him, so he spent almost a month before finding a flat, because landlords rejected him all the time, despite his salary.
With a diploma from a good engineering school and a previous work experience (internship and/or apprenticeship) the companies I talked about in [1] will pay you above 40k when coming out of school. With the two financial companies in the beginning being above 45k.
The main problem I see with developer employment in Paris, is the weight of the diploma in the remuneration. People with a university degree being offered around 30k most of the time.
I got a lot of interesting offers in Berlin, for what it's worth. And I expect that Berlin is a lot more agreeable to live in.
You will have huge trouble because you don't speak French.
You will have huge trouble for all administrative stuff. Like, it's hell to rent a flat even if you could pay 12 months in advance, because there isn't any AND the agencies will reject you because you don't have a history in France nor French parents with income to "vouch" for you.
Most importantly. There are no good jobs. The startup ecosystem is a joke and there is no Google/Facebook/Apple/Uber/AirBnb to work for.
And finally, the quality of living is mediocre, at best.
2. that's absolutely right, but working in Germany without speaking German wasn't really a good experience of mine either.
3. that's cute. Administrations are horrible everywhere, and it's even worst if it's not your country because you don't know what “everybody knows”.
4. Google is in Paris, but if you're looking for a good job, you probably don't want to work for Google anyways. (At least I don't, since I've had several bad feedbacks from both French or American offices)
5. this is highly subjective, I won't argue over this one.
2. Just meant to better consider staying or going to a country one speaks the language. No European countries speak or learn french, too badd ^^
3. There are variable levels of challenge. Some of which can be now circumvented with airbnb :D
4. Google ain't -really- in Paris. The first thing that comes up in the interview for frenchies is "that position only exists in Zurich or Dublin or London, do you have a preference?".
Don't be mean, Belgium and Switzerland are crying right now !
For app guys, just google Appsterdam if you want to know more...
I relocated from Paris to SF as a senior dev, and I am going back after 1 year. Yes I was making like 3x more in salary, but then housing in SF cost at least 2x more than in Paris, commute is just as bad, healthcare is a mess etc. And taxes are not that low :) - lower than in France, but you do not get much back, ie no healthcare, no retirement, not very good infrastructures etc. For me overall financially it is more interesting to go back.
Regarding jobs, I never had any problems to find interesting jobs in Paris, but I am working in embedded/low-level/networking/telcos systems, and I think Europe is skewed towards this kind of stuff whereas SV is skewed towards web/mobile.
To be honest I think it really depends of your lifestyle and priorities. I really enjoyed my year in SF, it is a beautiful city with great peoples, but I'll be happy to get back to Paris.
Honestly, my best advice for youngsters would be to leave the country for a few years. That's just the best option on the long term. They can come back to France, if they ever want to, and their experience will [hopefully] allow them to get interviews in the very few decent Parisian places.
I'm in distributed large scale systems. Not much of those in Paris I'm afraid ^^
The french have had dedicated engineering schools for a while, which are good, and most are very cheap (state sponsored).
There are many universities and they cover all topics (also state sponsored). Including law, finance, engineering, medicine, psychology, social sciences...
Some stuff (law/medicine) can only be done through a university (they're the only one to get the state-certificate to exercise the job). When it comes to engineering, universities offer it but the degrees are considered "shit-tier".
Note: They are not that bad per-se. They just get no considerations for old cultural reasons.
Most people associate Paris with old world charm, weltsmerchz, brooding philosophers and artists, sassy and fashionable women etc. - none of this is compatible with neckbeards with macbooks, obsession with money/productivity/growth that a thriving startup scene inevitably brings. Let it stay that way.
I find it bordeline cringey to see how other countries try to imitate "SV culture".
it's one thing to be inspired by something, and no question we should all admire what SV has created. On the other hand, I dream of France creating products that reflect its own identity and culture. It's not like we don't have anything in the past ot get our inspiration from.
I wish we didn't try to become SV, but try to become our better self, so to speak.
It would be interesting to see if there can be a third way - an attractive location for startups with a culture that is open to entrepreneurship without being overly obsessed with quick unicorn money and without being entirely dominated by startups and VCs?
http://www.leparisien.fr/info-paris-ile-de-france-oise/trans...
It's not that hard to find a place to work in Paris, it's hard for employers to find good candidates. I've spent most of the year looking for developers at Streamroot [1] and we struggled to have applicants. We hired 5 persons in the first 6 month of the year and still have a lot of open positions.
I don't know if you will read this post, because it's a bit late and you don't have any mail/twitter on your profile.
But we are looking for developers, including junior ones, in Paris or Nantes, if you're interested :
http://www.welcometothejungle.co/companies/lucca/jobs
Cheers, Guillaume
France makes people sad. One in 3 adult takes psychotropic drugs[1]. I lived in Australia and I was happy every day, in France there's just no good news. A brilliant example is, GP mentionned buildings are under-maintained, that's an excellent summary. It's the no-politics week so I won't dive into the past-and-future causes of this chronic stress, but it exists.
[1] http://www.france24.com/en/20140520-france-drug-addiction-1-...
Paris is not perfect but I don't see how this kind of initiative couldn't be a move in the right direction.
About the money part, Paris is far from being London or NYC, the gravity center isn't financial services, at least you don't feel it when living there.
There is great talent (engineer+design), I'd say the marketing overall is weak and too timid.
The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all adds up.
I'm French, working in London and I've been happy with the trade off of more pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with everything taken into account.
This ignores the much lower price of consumables in the US as well.
As much as I usually love to hate on the French system, it's hard to describe to someone who never experienced it the feeling of security that comes with the knowledge that every treatment decision for you is made by your doctor on the basis of best medical outcome, period.
Never before I moved to the UK and discovered private insurance through work had I even heard about "preexisting conditions", "lifetime limits", and the whole idea of having to talk to some guy in a call center about your ailments to get pre-approval, which you might or might not get based on whether this will affect their finance guy's Q4 targets.
Oh and "inefficient health care system"... absolutely, if by that you meant the US system : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-healt...
Americas healthcare is not truly private either - there's a lot of state intervention in it. They manage to get the worst of both worlds due to the inefficiency of the federal government.
Let's just say that it's hard to make much more past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. And the accommodation costs the same number as in London (at 1 EUR = 1 GBP).
Are you really getting that as a junior? I highly doubt so.
I bet that you're not accounting for what would be translated literally as "the income tax". Wait till you get the 3k€ tax bill at the end of the year ;)
Income tax for 32340€ (assuming you're single) => 3093€ a year
net salary after tax: 2437€
CQFD.
My calculator gives 2336 EUR per month on 12 months. (2156 EUR on 13 months).
The thing is, you're on 12 months so it's better than the estimation I gave initially. You're lucky in a sense, many places are forcing 13 months contract nowadays, which instantly steals 1/12 of your income.
Anyway, I consider that it fits the definition of "not much more than 2k". That will plateau [counter-]exponentially fast, don't expect to get 3k anytime soon :D
Many maybe, but I doubt it's the majority since I never heard about this in our industry.
Let's say you have a contract written "26k gross over 13 months".
It means, you're paid 2k per month (26/13).
In December, you'll get 4k at once. [If you're still there, and worked the whole year, and didn't give your notice, and weren't sick more than X days... There can be some pretty nasty conditions to try to not pay you].
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The dishonest way to put it (what French people think and what company say): say that the salary is 26k. Except it's really not that, you can NOT rely on that money.
The programmatic way to put it: You're paid 24k gross, 2k per month. You MAY get 1 month of [mostly] guaranteed bonus at the end of the year.
The left-France-For-Abroad way to put it: French companies not only pay bad but they try to fuck with your income and ostensibly lie to your face. Americans/London tech did not do that, they give the real number for your salary, and they add ON TOP generous bonus/RSU/profitshare plus free catered food and insurance.
Note that it's delayed by one year, you'll pay now for the year before.
If we are speaking of software engineering salaries that's really low. In Helsinki capable professionals can get 'easily' 3000€ after taxes per month (not in all companies though). If one has proven track record, is undoubtedly in 'smart and gets things done' category, etc.
Really ? Shortly after I graduated, I've been hired at 2700€ (net salary minus income tax). If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter)
That's a hard number to get for someone with 5-10 years experience. Sorry to say but there is no way you got that after graduation ^^
Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance. That's really really tough.
Would you mind sharing the gross salary number actually written on the contract and the name of the company and the careers page :D ?
> If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter).
I had some professional experiences at the time and there was no way I'd get anywhere near that.
I've left the country since because I'd rather leave the street than live in the street.
Let's talk business. Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets.
What kind of career would you or your friends offer back in France for that kind of profile?
As I already replied to your other comment, your calculation is flawed (partially because of your 13 month stuff but not only)
> Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance.
I'm from that kind of school, and in finance you don't really need network or "copinage" to get 55k a year. With it, a few manage to reach above 100k.
> Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets.
I'm not really in the financial business, but I'm not sure you could find work in «trading infrastructure» here in Paris. Maybe BNP has some stuff, but I know many banks have settled in London for that part of their business.
That being said, you could easily find a job above 60k in Paris with this background. Streamroot[1] had a position for this exact profile several month ago. Of course it's probably not much compared to what you earn in the trading business, but saying that 2500€ a month is impossible in Paris is just wrong nowadays.
I don't know how the market was several years ago, but I think you really underestimate the shortage of developers in Paris at the moment.
> I'm from that kind of school, and in finance you don't really need network or "copinage" to get 55k a year. With it, a few manage to reach above 100k.
I just checked your linkedin (and you should see mine). You're from the Ecole Centrale Paris. You absolutely have the network and you're privileged. You absolutely underestimate how hard it is to get a job from someone who is not from one of these schools, didn't study in Paris and has no friend/family in Paris.
> With it, a few manage to reach above 100k.
Yeah sure the legendary top 1% that every one heard about. Do you actually know the guy and checked the payslip?
Either way. It's both non representative AND it's still not on-par with London/SV for the cream of the crop.
> I'm not really in the financial business, but I'm not sure you could find work in «trading infrastructure» here in Paris.
I don't care especially about financial businesses. It's just one offer ready-to-sign I have on my desk. I try to make a collection of those. I guess it's like people who came from desert that now hoard water... I come from a job desert and I hoard job offers to maintain my mental sanity :D
This is really just one of the many jobs in there. I knew noone, I have zero network. I sent a few resumes and I got that.
That's the way it works in London. That's not the way it works in France :(
> That being said, you could easily find a job above 60k in Paris with this background.
With the taxes and costs of living. I estimate 60k€ in Paris to be like £50k in London (possibly less).
If we go higher, the difference will becomes more dramatic. No point to have a good salary in France with all the taxes, it's just stealing everything.
> but saying that 2500€ a month is impossible in Paris is just wrong nowadays.
There is a hundred people every year, who are in Paris, from the top schools in Paris, who may approach that. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'd say it's very limited and Paris sucks for the rest of the world.
> Of course it's probably not much compared to what you earn in the trading business
Way more or way less than what you think. It could go either way. But I'm still young and whatever I do now is just a step on the infinite ladder of the universe :D
> I don't know how the market was several years ago, but I think you really underestimate the shortage of developers in Paris at the moment.
0) A shortage that only applies to dudes from centrale and normale. Too bad for me.
1) There is no shortage in France. There is no money and there is no good company.
2) What are the odds of a good position in Paris without knowing the right people? High risk, low reward.
4) Even if France paid on-par. The tax would hurt so bad that it would still suck. Better make money elsewhere that doesn't steal it right away.
5) There is no such thing as a "shortage", the only thing is an "over abundance of companies who pays shit". Obviously, the international markets has increased my standards :D
6) In SV/NY/London. There is a small [but very real] market for the top talent, the few guys who knows what they are doing and what they're worth and are ambitious enough to pursue it. There are real options for the top 1%, in Paris there aren't.
Conclusion:
Your linkedin profile says that you're looking for a job, in France or abroad. You just surrendered. Even you, you do NOT believe in your country :p
I never understood why some companies in France are reluctant to pay well their developers, especially startups with funding.
If you want to be paid well, you need to work for a company where the technology is the product. Writing Java for a bank? The software is not the product, so you won't be respected like in Silicon Valley.
But those are in NY/London, not Paris.
When I was in Paris the only people I met were those majoring in Finance, the amount of computer programmers or engineers at the universities were extremely low. Why? Because the jobs just aren't there. Paris is and has always been a hub for Money. People then majored and specialized in Money. It is where the Money is; Money is where the jobs would be.
Don't let the media blitz carry you away at the announcement of Station F, it is a media wave designed to tell people, 'look... we are diversifying our economy' as Berlin and London have also been attempting (rather... ineffectively for Germany). The media blitz is a way of telling individuals in France (and all of Europe actually) that this is where tech jobs can be found... so make the decision to major in tech.
What I imagine will happen is: many people from Eastern Europe (strong scattering of micro tech scenes without sufficient exposure) will flock to Station F to take advantage of it's proximity to all of the local funding that can be found in Paris. Paris is a place like London and New York where people park their money for expansion. Station F is just another place for these people to park their funds.
We could be seeing the beginning of a rocking station F, or, we could be seeing the beginning of a very large media hype designed to encourage diversifying the economy that will be the beginning of a very slow 'meh' Station F.