Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by maerF0x0 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:13PM
(#12790177)
For my current flight patterns, I typically spend more time off the plane than flying. Showing up early, dropping baggage, customs/security, waiting at the gate, inefficiently loading the plane, pre-flight checks, taxiing (on/off runways), getting my baggage.
Each of those points could be much more efficient:
1.) Prescreen me for all things so that I exit the uber and walk upto the gate directly
2.) Let me print my own baggage tag at home and drop it at the gate when I arrive
3.) Dont let cheap idiots bring on carry on baggage and take up 200 ppl's time trying to jam it into an overhead bin
4.) Dont make me sit on the plane until absolutely ready, with a runway slot ready to go
5.) When I get off the plane, hand my luggage directly to me instead of making me wander around an airport looking for a terribly slow conveyor belt to eventually get my bag
I presume all of the above doesnt happen because, at the end of the day, there aren't sufficient travelers willing to pay the cost of implementation.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by pcl on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:24PM
(#12790274)
5.) When I get off the plane, hand my luggage directly to me instead of making me wander around an airport looking for a terribly slow conveyor belt to eventually get my bag
It turns out that this has been studied quite a bit. You need to walk halfway across the airport because it reduces the amount of time you eventually stand staring at the belt waiting for your bag, and most people prefer "occupied time" (e.g., walking halfway across the airport) to "unoccupied time" (e.g., waiting at a baggage claim right next to the flight).
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by nostrademons on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:58PM
(#12791144)
Passenger screening on commercial airlines began in 1973. $14 in 1973 ~= $75 in 2016. You can get SJC -> LAX tickets on Southwest for $59 today, albeit booking in advance. The schedule is almost hourly, too. You just have to book a month out to get decent fares.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by nostrademons on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:49PM
(#12791999)
Makes plenty of sense from the airline's perspective. It's price segmentation: people who book 2 days out usually really need to get somewhere, whether it's an important business trip or a death in the family, and so they're willing to pay a lot.
It sucks from the customer perspective - in particular, if you have a sudden illness or death in a family member, the last thing on your mind should be how the airline is about to fleece you. International airlines often have bereavement fares for these situations, but US domestic carriers view it as a profit opportunity. It's often a double-whammy because your travel schedule is often unpredictable in these cases and most airline don't allow flight changes without huge penalties.
Interestingly, I've heard that plane tickets often drop significantly in price if you book really close to departure (eg. < 1 day out). Never tried it, and I don't see it in a quick spot check of the Internet, but it makes sense from an economic perspective - the seat is otherwise going to go unfilled, so any money is better than no money.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by figgis on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:46AM
(#12794151)
It's worth noting I know at least Delta offers "bereavement fares" and I would be surprised if the other airlines did not offer the same discounted service.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by moftz on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:37PM
(#12790405)
At the airport closest to my house, the baggage pickup is right next to the exits to the taxi and pickup lanes. This means that I only need to carry all my stuff for a short distance to a car or shuttle rather than carrying it through the terminal. This airport has a tram system linking the building housing the ticket desks and security to the actual boarding terminal so having everyone haul their larger bags on the tram would be inefficient and just cause more headaches, especially for those travelling with children or the disabled.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by lazaroclapp on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:30PM
(#12790333)
Sure, but the point is you could, in theory, redesign both plane's cargo holds, and airport systems, so that the moment you get out of the plane (or within 2 min tops of docking) your bag is there in a square of the floor labeled with your name and sorted alphabetically. Of course, doing so might not be cost effective, but I bet it remains cheaper than supersonic flight.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by pcl on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:43PM
(#12790474)
I think it'd be pretty tough to get a plane's worth of bags from the hold to anything resembling an orderly display within 120 seconds of the first person getting off the flight. Let's assume that the collection location needs to be at least twice the wingspan of the plane. That's 400 feet for a 787, or 140 feet for a 737. There's a benefit to consistency at a given site, so let's stick with the 400-foot number. That's 90 seconds right there at typical walking speed (3 mph). So, to meet the SLA, we'd probably need to open up the entire hold, length-wise, rather than pulling out bags from one or two doors. I'm not an aeronautical engineer, but designing a door into the length of the fuselage seems like it could be on the same order of complexity as designing a plane for supersonic travel.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by 0xffff2 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:51PM
(#12790557)
In what theory? How would you actually go about accomplishing this? I'm sure the airlines would very much like to know how to unload a full plane's worth of cargo in 2 minutes.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by marme on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:39PM
(#12791886)
they actually built systems for this but it has never been implemented. Basically you make the cargo hold completely removable from the plane. There is a box that slides in and out of the bottom of the plane. Someone just drives up with a fork lift style vehicle pops off the container and takes it inside the terminal where it can be dumped out onto the conveyor belt. I am surprised they have not automated the entire baggage system. It seems like it would be feasible to automate just about everything. You know where the plane is going to park every single time just fix that position and have something under it which can directly attach to the plane and pull the bags off and conveyor them under the ground and into the terminal and it can auto sort the bags to the right destination. It would not be easy to build but it is doable and would remove the need of large percentage of workers in the airport
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by nostrademons on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:41PM
(#12791007)
With small planes it basically works like this - on many of the tiny regional turboprops, your baggage is waiting by the side of the tarmac as you exit the airplane, and you pick it up before you enter the terminal, not at baggage claim.
It's mostly a problem of scale. Unloading 20 bags in the 5 minutes or so before the passengers start to deplane is no problem. Unloading 500 bags would be.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by maerF0x0 on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:47PM
(#12798698)
I call them "cheap idiots" because I recognize the tragedy of the commons issue and begrudgingly pay the $25. Instead of bringing my obviously oversized carry-on up to the terminal and then being like "Oh? I didnt know, please check it for me" . Yes that makes me the "fool", but I prefer to do the thing that helps the world go in the right direction, vs doing the thing that harms everyone else to my benefit.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by JoshTriplett on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:11PM
(#12792198)
> 2.) Let me print my own baggage tag at home and drop it at the gate when I arrive 3.) Dont let cheap idiots bring on carry on baggage and take up 200 ppl's time trying to jam it into an overhead bin 5.) When I get off the plane, hand my luggage directly to me instead of making me wander around an airport looking for a terribly slow conveyor belt to eventually get my bag
If you're not willing to fix 2 and 5, as well as airlines losing, misdirecting, or mishandling/damaging luggage, then you will get people like me who refuse to ever check a bag. I'd like everything I bring with me to show up, intact, and not have to wait on baggage at the other end, so I carry it with me. (I do, however, make sure it fits well within the specified carry-on dimensions, so I never have problems fitting it easily into the overhead bin.)
I don't mind gate-checked bags as much; that solves every problem except for damaged/mishandled luggage, and in particular I know I can simply pick up the bag directly from the cart on the tarmac when I get off the plane. That only tends to happen for tiny planes, though, and I don't know that it'd scale to a 400-person flight.
Personally, I'd like to see a solution that involves finer-grained boarding. Don't board a dozen rows at a time; board in outside-in order, so that everyone walks directly to the correct row, loads their luggage in parallel without blocking anyone, and sits down in parallel.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by ghaff on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:39PM
(#12791479)
I'd actually need to be convinced that the problem with carry-on space is people traveling on their own dime. Walking past the ticket counters in a typical airport, I see lots of luggage being checked by people who definitely aren't business travelers.
For business travelers, it's not about the money. Most of us get free checked bags because of airline status anyway. It's about time. I just wish not everyone, however able-bodied, felt compelled to use the rigid roller bags that take up so much room even for a 1 night trip.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by HillRat on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:23PM
(#12793652)
That was my thought as well -- there are some (thankfully few) weeks where I would end up adding five to ten hours of airport wait time if I checked my bags on every flight (considering that the times I do check bags I end up waiting 30-45 minutes to get them). Checked bags to me are just a way of extending the aggravation that is modern air travel. Though I'm more than happy to hand them over in the jetway and not have to deal with overhead bins at all....
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by maerF0x0 on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:49PM
(#12798717)
Sure, a small slice of the people on the flight cannot afford $25 each way. Most people I've observed do not, at least, appear to be that broke. I usually solve "cannot" afford issues by doing less, instead of choosing to make everyone around me suffer.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:52PM
(#12791096)
> For my current flight patterns, I typically spend more time off the plane than flying. Showing up early, dropping baggage, customs/security, waiting at the gate, inefficiently loading the plane, pre-flight checks, taxiing (on/off runways), getting my baggage.
When I was living in Beijing, I would do a few transpacific flights a year. Even Seattle was 12 hours away...
Supersonic flights make total sense for long hauls...it could make places like Australia or New Zealand "much closer" and less isolated.
Given that you are flying mainly short hauls, this isn't a feature designed for you.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by thescriptkiddie on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:27PM
(#12791374)
This is exactly why high speed rail is so appealing. Being able to to travel to another city at 300+ km/h with no more fanfare than getting on the metro is a fantastic experience. Sure, an aircraft flies 2-3 times faster, but the 2 hours you waste at the airport makes a train the faster option for any flight under 1 hour.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by mi100hael on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:55PM
(#12791576)
Make no mistake. The government will figure out how to ruin modern high speed rail with a bunch of bureaucracy and security theater the instant it becomes popular.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by rhino369 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:52PM
(#12792027)
You don't have to wait 2 hours extra hours at air ports v. high speed rail. Not accounting for travel to the airport v travel to the train station, it's probably only like 30-45 minutes. You have to get to the airport 60 minutes before a domestic flight, but you have to get to amtrak 15 minutes before a trip.
Amtraks have a lot more fan fare than getting on a metro. They don't run that often and they sometimes fill up. It's much more like getting on a plane than a subway.
The time might get a little longer if you include time to get to the airport v. time to get to the station, but it's variable based on where particular people live.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by ebalit on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @12:56PM
(#12798173)
For the TGV, you need to be in the train 2 minutes before departure. Of course, you probably want to take a biffer margin of error. It's not "metro-like" but really close to commuter trains.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by drawnwren on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:28PM
(#12790315)
All of these problems are solved in international business class and mostly solved in domestic business. It's a question of how much you actually value these services vs the cost.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by ilyanep on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:32PM
(#12790350)
Not really; the only difference is that instead of waiting at the gate / in the aisle for people to put their bags in the bin, you're sitting in your fancy seat drinking a rum and coke. You still wait for your bag, even though it's 'priority' -- both times I've come into DCA in the last few months, it's taken like 25 minutes after I got to the carousel for it to start spinning (and my bags are one of the first ones out, but eh).
You definitely fly in comfort as a business passenger, but I wouldn't say you fly much more efficiently.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by ghaff on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:41PM
(#12790451)
>You still wait for your bag
Not to pick on you specifically but, for a lot of people, bring less stuff. I don't use a roll-a-board for carry-on. I travel with fully legal soft-sided luggage that doesn't inflexibly take up as much space and a small computer bag. I rarely find I need to check luggage unless I'm doing activities that require sporting gear etc.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by drawnwren on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:00PM
(#12790655)
Not at all. I have a lot of friends who do this and travel. Especially in business you aren't fighting for overhead space. If you can do carry on only, you definitely should. It makes travel significantly easier.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by seanp2k2 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:08PM
(#12791212)
Same, I always try to do carry-on only. TSA PreCheck helps, but the boarding process is still so inefficient. If I ran an airline, there would be a mandatory class with a test on boarding and unloading efficiently. It really bugs me how almost no one puts their bag up in the Corey orientation (they put it in with the wide side down instead of vertically, so one less bag per compartment fits). People also tend to stuff all their non-carry on stuff into the bins, which further reduces space.
Airlines are partially to blame for this behavior as well, since they rarely enforce it or even give much guidance. People also walk very slowly into the plane, struggle to lift their stuff, then realize they need something out of the pocket so they hold up everyone while they get it. I also never understood why both doors aren't used for boarding and the planes boarded middle-first.
I bet I could get the boarding time down to about 40% of what it is right now with my suggested changes. In the security lines, there are too few lanes open and too few helpers. If I opt out of the idiot scanner, it adds at least 10 minutes, sometimes 30. I've had many TSA people be incredibly rude to me when I've opted out, one yelling at me for putting my carry on in front of another person's on the undriven, too-short conveyor belt after the same person had previously instructed me to remove my bag from the belt when I informed them I was opt-out (every other time I've flown, they make you wait like an idiot while your bag and the contents of your pockets sit on the other side of the conveyor, free for anyone else to take).
The security theatre on display is also infuriating. If one wanted to, travel with someone and have them not opt out, but grab your carry-on from the other side of the scanner while you wait for them to even call for someone to think about coming over to check the elastic in your underwear for a wine opener, which if they didn't confiscate, would have obviously been used to initialize the downfall of western civilization. Meanwhile, the random checks with guns in their pants get through the blow-hard machine all the time: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2015/06/01/poli...
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by stouset on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:05PM
(#12792560)
> I bet I could get the boarding time down to about 40% of what it is right now with my suggested changes.
My guess is that this is of no real benefit. Refueling, restocking, loading baggage, running maintenance checks, and other tasks need to happen before the airline can get the plane back into the air. Only extremely infrequently have I been on a plane that was able to roll back from the gate shortly after the last passenger boarded.
If the limiting factor here was passenger boarding times, airlines would have every incentive to improve the situation from where it is now. They have no incentive to speed up boarding to be any faster than the slowest of the rest of the preflight processes.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by maerF0x0 on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:53PM
(#12798764)
Its kind of like the model of aging (as I understood it presented by Aubrey de grey). There are many things to solve and if you dont solve them all, the first one to go gets you. No reason to board faster if you cannot do refueling faster, no reason to refuel faster if you cannot load baggage faster, no reason to load baggage faster if you cannot board faster.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by drawnwren on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:37PM
(#12790410)
I completely disagree. The separate line at check-in and through security plus early boarding to a separate cabin mean you never deal with significant wait times and you can check-in significantly closer to take off. American airports in general are bad about bags, but having your bag in the first group again gives you a huge advantage. Especially if you mix with TSA pre check.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by ghaff on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:48PM
(#12790523)
Plus if I'm sitting in my comfortable seat drinking a rum and coke and reading a book for an extra 15 minutes, I don't really find that a particular hardship away from the noise and the throngs of people in the terminal.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by enraged_camel on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:33PM
(#12790951)
>>3.) Dont let cheap idiots bring on carry on baggage and take up 200 ppl's time trying to jam it into an overhead bin
I always bring carry-on, not because I'm cheap, but because of exactly the reasons you mentioned regarding it being a pain in the ass to drop off and pick up checked in luggage.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by seanp2k2 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:11PM
(#12791238)
I'm guessing the people referred to here are the ones with grossly-oversized carry on items and the type of people who bring two carry-ons which don't fit under the seats, then try to stuff them both into the bins for a few minutes before making a scene with a flight attendant who insists they gate-check one (which, IMO, shouldn't be a free service, to discourage this type of thing).
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by viraptor on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:15PM
(#12791705)
Don't know about US domestic, but world-wide both the bin sizes and the seats vary a lot. My travel suitcase usually fits in both, but sometimes it's just too big for one of them. Without standard sizes it's just going to happen.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by spullara on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:24PM
(#12790860)
Noob :) Get TSA Pre, checkin on your phone, park your car in the exact right spot, walk directly to the security gate. Throw your two carryons on the conveyer belt and walk through the metal detector. Pick up items and walk to gate. Total time from car to gate is < 10 minutes at SFO.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by ghaff on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:49PM
(#12791080)
In all fairness, it can be hard to predict--although I can't say I've had any real issue at SFO for a while. But because I hate to feel rushed unnecessarily, I add getting an airline club membership and chill for the extra hour or whatever that I have.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by nostrademons on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:45PM
(#12791051)
I think Boom is targeting the private-jet market. Business travelers with a private jet just show up at the general aviation terminal, say hi to the guard, walk out onto the tarmac, board the airplane, and take off. The security bullshit is for people flying commercial.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by thearn4 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:53PM
(#12790575)
I've always said that if I could be anesthetized and stored like cargo for the entire trip, that would be preferable to me to the hurry-up-and-wait[1] status quo. I don't mind traveling, but really hate the entire airport experience these days.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by gwbas1c on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:21PM
(#12790845)
What I want is "address to address" booking: Type in the address that I'm leaving from, and the address that I'm going to, and everything is taken care of. Things should run as smoothly as you describe.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by viraptor on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:18PM
(#12791724)
> 2.) Let me print my own baggage tag at home and drop it at the gate when I arrive
Qantas in Australia does this. If you fly often you can just order a permanent tag for your luggage. (you also get two anyway at higher FF levels)
> 5.) When I get off the plane, hand my luggage directly to me
How do you think this would work? Either the luggage or the people would have to be ordered. The way we're loading the planes and boarding, neither one is true. The carousel time is "free" for the airport, so that's the simplest solution.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by maerF0x0 on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:55PM
(#12798797)
>Either the luggage or the people would have to be ordered.
People come off the plane pretty close to ordered (singled door model. A machine that reads the tags could sort the luggage cause it could know what seat you're in.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by snowwrestler on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:45PM
(#12791951)
3) and 5) are related. People who carry their luggage on, also get to carry it directly off as well. No wandering.
Airlines like people who carry on. It's no slower (for the airline), requires fewer ground staff, and leaves more room in the hold for paying cargo. Empty space on a plane is like fruit rotting on a supermarket shelf.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by 0xffff2 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:59PM
(#12790644)
This still depends significantly on the airport. At somewhere like LAX, even Global Entry and priority boarding is a far cry from "walk straight to the gate".
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by the_duke on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:43PM
(#12789932)
Supersonic aircraft projects have come and gone over the years. They usually dwindle away into oblivion.
The only company that I would take seriosly right now is Aerion (http://www.aerionsupersonic.com/). They are working on a supersonic private jet (12 passengers). They already have quite a few orders (notably 20 jets for Flexjet, 120 Mil a piece) and a cooperation with Airbus, who is apparently helping them. Probably in exchange for their drag reducing "laminar flow" technology.
Building a new aircraft is a huge undertaking, both in terms of technical challenges, financing and organization. A supersonic one even more so.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but this doesn't sound too promising.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by knz on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:27PM
(#12790306)
> Supersonic aircraft projects have come and gone over the years. They usually dwindle away into oblivion.
The international aviation market is probably the largest it has ever been and I believe the expectation is that it will continue to grow. That could be a factor in determining how successful the next iteration of supersonic aircraft will be. I travel from the US to New Zealand often. I don't care about getting to LAX in 1.5 hours instead of 3 but I would love to be able to go from LAX to AKL in 5 hours. The airlines would love to be able to provide quicker service to Europe or Asia from the US.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by nether on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:28PM
(#12790311)
All the same FUD spoken during the early days of SpaceX. It was correct in most cases; Bigelow, Blue Origin, Xcor are floundering, SpaceX is the exception. I just hope we have more entrants in this industry to increase the odds of success.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by Florin_Andrei on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:34PM
(#12793012)
I think Elon said there is probably a market for delivering stuff to antipodes in under an hour, price doesn't matter. It's not a large market, and you don't get a steady daily business, but there will always be demand for it.
Until, of course, this sort of thing becomes trivial and super-reliable, and then the price will drop through the floor.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by vmarsy on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:55PM
(#12791122)
One of the issues with airplanes in general but especially with the Concorde at high altitude was radiation [1][2]. Would a carbon-fiber plane protect better or worse than an aluminum plane? My intuition tells me that aluminum is much better at shielding from radiation than carbon-fiber.
The Concorde was flying between 45,000 and a maximum altitude of 60,000 feet. If Boom flies at 60,000 feet, radiation is also going to be a bigger issue. I'm curious how the engineers are planning to address this.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by godelski on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:47PM
(#12791526)
Well according to [1] crew of the Concord would get 50-150mSv/yr. US regulation is that a radiation worker can get 50mSv/yr and EU is 20mSv/yr. So this is clearly not acceptable.
Your intuition about carbon-fiber is correct.
What I would guess they are doing though is a layered system, as it is hard to make up the difference with just dopants. Other materials are good too, like Kevlar [2]. So you layer these materials together and get better overall protection. Lots of research being done for this right now actually. NASA has some SBIR phase II funding for low weight, structural radiation shields. Though on Earth you can get away with a lot more than you could in space (launch weight).
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by daleg on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:21PM
(#12791318)
They aren't going to address it because it isn't an actual problem that needs to be addressed. You have far, far more to worry about with radon gas seeping up through cracks in your own home's foundation than a trivially-higher amount of cosmic radiation plinking you for 2-3 hours. BTW, it's the density of a material which offers radiation protection, not solely whether it's a metal or not.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by godelski on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:49PM
(#12791544)
I disagree. Concord crew surpassed US and EU regulations for allowed dosages (see my post above). Different materials have different attenuation lengths. So it isn't just density. Especially if we get into the whole neutron problem. But I'm keeping this brief: materials make a huge difference.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by stcredzero on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:43PM
(#12789931)
“The people we talked to looked over our plan and concluded it is technically feasible,” he says. “This is not science fiction.”
There is a big difference between being not Sci-Fi and being economically feasible. Though arguably, there is a subset of Sci-Fi that also includes social science ideas.
“You kind of design a plane around an engine rather than the other way around,” Aboulafia says. “Let me know when we can hear their engine.”
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by wazoox on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:06PM
(#12791197)
A 40 seater is only slightly bigger than say, a Dassault Falcon. Dassault has been building supersonic jets for 60 years; they certainly know how to build a supersonic private jet, but they never actually tried it. Apparently, there are no suitable engines available (tough problem). And is there a market?
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by daleg on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:31PM
(#12791398)
There are tons of suitable engines and engine designs. The big problem is: Who would buy it? No manufacturer in the already niche, thin-margined, and overstocked business/charter jet market is going to be the first penguin off the iceberg to find that out. Even with a new subsonic model, one flop can mean a rapid financial death for the company.
There are plenty of other considerations outside of the factory floor and design rooms to consider - operating costs, the availability of qualified A&Ps to fix the thing, the parts network, the cost of the parts (if you buy a $15M plane, you're going to pay $15M plane prices for spares and overhauls). Insurance will surely take their pound of flesh for something that's A) a company's first product B) a new category, and C) supersonic. Finally, with the general public being decidedly anti-aviation, the noise profile of this plane might very well limit where it can fly in and out of. It's a basic matter of aeodynamics, and the same problem that the Concorde experienced almost 50 years ago.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by 0xffff2 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:06PM
(#12790695)
It's still a long way off, but we are working on building quieter supersonic planes [1]. I think we will almost certainly see the return of international supersonics first, but never is a very long time.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by notjustanymike on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:25PM
(#12791354)
I've said it before: don't call your airline company "Boom". Just don't do it. It's like calling your shipping company "Wash", or car company "Impact". You're just asking for the headlines.
Plus anyone in the airport discussing your company will be invited for some enhanced screening.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by technofiend on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:24PM
(#12790271)
Well since they're a y-combinator company maybe they'll build a working model and be bought out as so many startups are. With a working model in hand I could see BAC or Boeing saying "Great work, now let us show you how to get them through FAA's ETOPS certification and build 100 a year."
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by jedc on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:47PM
(#12790508)
I find it weird that they didn't mention the name of the UK airline in the article. When they launched around Demo Day it was all over the news that it was Virgin & Richard Branson, and all of those articles are still online.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by VLM on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:42PM
(#12790463)
Per wikipedia the Concorde and 707 are vaguely similar size and the Concorde successfully pulled off 15 passenger miles/gallon and the 707 got about 30 passenger miles/gallon around the same time.
Now JetA isn't service station gas so its slightly unfair to compare the 15 pMPG of a Concorde to a 12 MPG single passenger pickup truck. But it does give you a general idea that everything being equal (size, technology level, risk?) the supersonic plane will burn about twice the carbon footprint of a similar subsonic plane.
Note that with a full modern subsonic plane its quite easy to get a carbon footprint staggeringly better than a single driver in an obese modern SUV or truck. The problem is if you're fair and let the aircraft people use any thing they want such as 2016 technology and engineering, you have to let the car people use any thing they want, and my wife's Prius is trivially capable of providing reasonable comfort at 300 passenger miles per gallon.
Supposedly the largest 777 model does better than 70 pMPG per my commercial pilot buddy (who teased me quite a bit about my wife's Prius only getting 60 pMPG when there's only one passenger, so he burns less gas flying than she does driving). So everything being equal if stereotypical subsonic planes have roughly doubled in pMPG then its not ridiculous to expect over 30 pMPG on a modern supersonic plane. My Yaris commuter car struggles to get 30 pMPG with a single passenger (me) so to a first approximation a modern supersonic aircraft damages the environment about as much as driving alone in my subcompact commuter car. Not great, not awful. Eh.
Obviously my car's performance in transatlantic and transpacific service is somewhat inferior to the performance of the proposed plane.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by mshook on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @09:27AM
(#12796250)
The other big factor to keep in mind is Concorde hourly fuel consumption at cruising subsonic speed (something below Mach 0.95) was pretty much disastrous as it was the same than at vmo (which was Mach 2.02).
So the goal was always to go supersonic as quickly as possible as the fastest she went the better the mpg got...
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by lutorm on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:02PM
(#12790669)
mpg isn't really relevant, though. If you fly a few international flights a year, or even coast to coast, you can easily rack up many more miles than you would drive. Flying easily dwarfs the carbon footprint of driving.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by mantas on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:42PM
(#12791493)
Well, technically Prius would have 300-ish pMPG. If a pilot was the only person in the plane, it's pMPG would be much much worse. Even better comparison would be a shuttle bus pMPG..
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by rwallace on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:55PM
(#12793108)
But that depends on how it's typically operated. Nobody uses an airliner as a one-person transport, but unfortunately many people use a Prius that way.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by mantas on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @12:01AM
(#12793779)
On average, airplanes are not used to 100% capacity either. Some flights are oversold, some are half-empty. Sometimes they're almost empty. Cars frequently are occupied by 2 or more people, sometimes they are full too.
I never saw any hard statistics, but it's definitely not cars 90% 1 occupant, planes always near-full. It's anecdotal evidence for sure, but my car is, on average, as full as average plane I took. Especially if we count per-mile rather than per-trip.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by VLM on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:19PM
(#12798415)
Things also get weird with air cargo. My pilot buddy says they fill the cargo area and aircraft to the weight or volume limit pretty much every flight he takes. He may fly for a weird carrier or on weird routes, but it sounds believable that there is infinite supply of "I wanna get there faster" cargo. You might see ten empty seats but merely means there's a one ton MRI thingie that's on emergency shipment in the cargo area. He mentioned they're really into containerization and a small container alone costs $200 so I am almost scared to ask how much it costs to actually ship it. Then again everything aerospace rated costs a hundred times more, so a $2 isn't so ridiculous.
Aacargo.com division of american airlines proudly advertises they ship 100 million pounds of cargo per week, and also advertise they have 6000 flights per day so thats averaging about a ton of cargo on every flight and a ton represents maybe ten empty passenger seats, so your average flight should have ten empty seats. Of course reality is the seats might be near empty at midnight and 100% full during the day, etc.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by stcredzero on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:46PM
(#12789965)
Both kinetic energy and air friction scale approximately with N^2. (Where N is units of velocity.) One can escape a lot of air friction by going higher, which is what Boom is planning to do, but you have to pay for the potential energy of altitude with fuel. Boom is minimizing the weight by using carbon fiber. (Which also means the wings have to redirect less air to keep the plane in the air, which also reduces drag.)
It's likely that the carbon footprint is several times higher, perhaps nearing an order of magnitude.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by h4nkoslo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:53PM
(#12790008)
That would depend heavily on the effect on the volume of flights, fuel per seat per mile, the energy inputs to constructing the plane & its maintenance parts, and their sources...
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by neaden on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:41PM
(#12789396)
So assuming they are get this to be feasible it seems like their model is that their are enough business travelers who are willing to forgo comfort for a slightly faster trip. My instinct is that no, they would rather have the comfort of a larger plane, but as I'm not an international business traveler I could very well be mistaken.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by JoshTriplett on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:08PM
(#12789634)
Time is an aspect of comfort. Within reason, I'd much rather have a 5-hour flight with the comfort level of domestic first class than a 13-hour flight with the comfort level of international business class.
(On the other hand, I typically fly internationally in coach, which often has as much seat and leg room as domestic first class.)
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by 0xffff2 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:17PM
(#12790807)
What?? What airline has as much leg room in international coach as domestic first? The last international flight I flew my knees literally touched the seat in front of me, whereas my last domestic first class flight had more than enough room to cross my legs comfortably.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by JoshTriplett on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:11PM
(#12791242)
The international flights I've flown on KLM feel much roomier in coach than domestic coach typically feels. They might not have the same amount of leg room as domestic first class, but they pass that magic threshold from "not enough leg room" to "enough leg room" for me.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by 0xffff2 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:48PM
(#12791988)
Hmm, that's an interesting interesting list. I have only flown to Europe (from North America) so far. My experience with European airlines has obviously been much different.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by johnm1019 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:13PM
(#12789686)
I have flown at least one international trip in J every month for the last 2 years. (mostly transatlantic)
I can tell you, if it's truly the same price as J, and you get a domestic FC seat -- it's totally worth it. A typical TATL-EastCoast segment is about 7-9 hours long depending on many factors. If they can cut that to 3 hours, it's a huge win.
First of all, it means that instead of leaving the EU Sunday so I can work Monday morning, I could leave Monday morning about 8AM, and arrive in the USA (assume I have one connection, could be on either side) about 8AM. I've just gained an entire (_weekend_) day of my life back.
Now going home, TATL flights are always overnight. Instead though, I could sleep in a normal bed, get up at 4/5am (I try and stay on EU time anyway for my 5-day trips, get up early, go to bed early), and then land same day and be home before dinner -- and not spend the entire arrival day running on 5 hours of (crap) "sleep".
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by tdb7893 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:01PM
(#12790077)
As someone who has flown in all different classes on all different lengths of flights (my dad is a pilot) I would choose shorter flights over a better seat literally every time except if it is an overnight flight. There's not that much of a difference to me until I try to sleep and then first class is just so much better.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by the_duke on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:35PM
(#12789870)
That remains to be seen.
The problem is not technical, but regulatory. The Concorde's sonic boom was very loud and a big nuisance. That's why it was forbidden.
There are multiple supersonic jets in development (private jets), that all plan on having a much reduced sonic boom that should allow regulations to be lifted. But that will have to be demonstrated to regulators first.
If you can't fly supersonic overland, it severely limits the utility and the possible routes.
Supersonic aircraft are TERRIBLY inefficient when flying subsonic, and use up a lot of fuel when doing so.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by tw04 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:11PM
(#12789665)
Yes. I've taken that flight business - it's absolutely better, but if I had the option of cutting the time down in half for the same price I'd take a smaller seat any day of the week. Not knees-in-my-chest smaller, but traditional first-class seating any day.
As faster satellite wifi becomes a thing the longer flights are tolerable, but it's still time you could be on the ground doing something more useful.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by microtherion on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:55PM
(#12790022)
I have flown ZRH-SFO-ZRH 3x a year for the last 10 years, last 2 years in business class. I would definitely take a halving of the flight time over a more comfortable seat.
On the other hand, I'm very doubtful about Boom; the fact that they mostly seem to be talking about the passenger cabin does not inspire a ton of confidence, and even if they get their plane built, I have doubts about their ticket price projections.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by ghaff on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:11PM
(#12789670)
I'm more inclined to use terms like boring than brutal.
I suspect that it's highly questionable whether a supersonic design would be able to do the "brutally long" flights without refueling. The market for the Concorde and I imagine the market for this is the CEO/investment banker/international lawyer who wants to do a quick hop from NYC to London or Paris--including day trips.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by United857 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:49PM
(#12789988)
The big difference was that Concorde mostly existed before the Internet. With email and video conferencing, the need for a lot of these 1-day out and back trips has likely been greatly reduced.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by crooked-v on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:12PM
(#12789673)
I've been on a transcontinental flight that was empty enough I could take over a whole row to stretch out and could wander around the aisle, and it was still tremendously physically uncomfortable after the first few hours. Even the nicest surroundings on airplanes have less room than the smallest office cubicle.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by hx87 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:08PM
(#12789632)
You're still stuck in a relatively small seat with little chance to walk around, breathing air with close to 0% humidity, a cramped and uncomfortable toilet, a dull roar in the background, and (if you're flying on an American airline) terrible food.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by knz on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:32PM
(#12790346)
I suspect there are numerous parents who would happily pay more for shorter long haul flights (especially considering that a 12 hour flight is often 20+ when you add in connecting flights and layovers).
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by GrinningFool on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:51PM
(#12790555)
It's interesting how our idea of what we accept as "comfort" changes as fewer options are available. Unless I'm flying first/businesss class or on a small jet, "comfort" simply isn't possible when flying.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by rbanffy on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:55PM
(#12790590)
Everyone here would like to bring supersonic civilian travel back. That doesn't mean it's feasible.
Building an economically attractive passenger plane is the first part. Then it'll need to be certified. At some point, it'll have to be sold for profit.
I genuinely wish them good luck. They chose a formidable challenge.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by johnm1019 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:18PM
(#12789730)
I hadn't thought about that, it's a great point. This company wants to make a product that is neither the "sonic ..." or the "going ..." of their name. They should change that.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by gaur on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:42PM
(#12791495)
Old title: clear what kind of company was pushing supersonic air travel, but unclear which company in particular was doing it.
Proposed title change: clear which company was pushing supersonic air travel, but unclear what kind of company it is.
Actual title change: unclear that a company is involved at all. What is "Boom"? Do they just mean that a general economic boom is going to bring supersonic air travel back?
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by unethical_ban on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @02:52PM
(#12799305)
I feel "aerospace company" might be implied by the fact they're working to bring back civi supersonic travel. I suppose it could be "just" an advocacy group.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by jpm_sd on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:29PM
(#12789289)
This company appears to consist of software engineers playing dress-up. There is no reason to expect them to succeed, and no market need that they are serving.
Edit: I have worked on several teams in the past where the leadership consisted of people who "don't know what can't be done". They hire a bunch of domain experts, then ignore and/or contradict them until the company runs out of money.
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by abstractbill on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:38PM
(#12789366)
From the article: "Today, Boom has 11 people, six of them pilots... Unlike Scholl, these folks have serious industry bona fides. Joe Wilding, the co-founder and chief engineer, was a standout at three aerospace startups, designing passenger planes from scratch. Andy Berryann, the head of propulsion, used to work at Pratt & Whitney, building parts of the engine for a supersonic fighter jet. Other employees came from NASA, Lockheed Martin, and a Northrop Grumman subsidiary, Scaled Composites."
Re:Boom Wants to Bring Supersonic Civilian Travel Back
by Pamar on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:06PM
(#12789605)
I am pretty sure they know how to design (and maybe build) airplanes. This will not automatically mean they will be good at selling them, or build a business around them.
Each of those points could be much more efficient:
1.) Prescreen me for all things so that I exit the uber and walk upto the gate directly 2.) Let me print my own baggage tag at home and drop it at the gate when I arrive 3.) Dont let cheap idiots bring on carry on baggage and take up 200 ppl's time trying to jam it into an overhead bin 4.) Dont make me sit on the plane until absolutely ready, with a runway slot ready to go 5.) When I get off the plane, hand my luggage directly to me instead of making me wander around an airport looking for a terribly slow conveyor belt to eventually get my bag
I presume all of the above doesnt happen because, at the end of the day, there aren't sufficient travelers willing to pay the cost of implementation.
It turns out that this has been studied quite a bit. You need to walk halfway across the airport because it reduces the amount of time you eventually stand staring at the belt waiting for your bag, and most people prefer "occupied time" (e.g., walking halfway across the airport) to "unoccupied time" (e.g., waiting at a baggage claim right next to the flight).
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/opinion/sunday/why-waiting...
- Drive to SJC. Park in lot next to terminal about 100 feet from PSA station.
- Walk into adjacent PSA terminal section. Pay $14 in cash to clerk. No reservation needed. Register receipt is boarding pass.
- The hourly B-727 pulls up outside and lowers rear stairs. Passengers get on with carry-on luggage.
- 58 minutes flight time to LAX.
Which is a travesty. This makes absolutely zero sense, even after Econ 500 level classes I took a decade ago. It's greed, plain and simple.
It sucks from the customer perspective - in particular, if you have a sudden illness or death in a family member, the last thing on your mind should be how the airline is about to fleece you. International airlines often have bereavement fares for these situations, but US domestic carriers view it as a profit opportunity. It's often a double-whammy because your travel schedule is often unpredictable in these cases and most airline don't allow flight changes without huge penalties.
Interestingly, I've heard that plane tickets often drop significantly in price if you book really close to departure (eg. < 1 day out). Never tried it, and I don't see it in a quick spot check of the Internet, but it makes sense from an economic perspective - the seat is otherwise going to go unfilled, so any money is better than no money.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2016/07/death_in_the_family...
Why? But in any case, you could have a fast conveyor belt directly from the plane to the location, no need to carry them by hand.
http://calleam.com/WTPF/?page_id=2086
It's mostly a problem of scale. Unloading 20 bags in the 5 minutes or so before the passengers start to deplane is no problem. Unloading 500 bags would be.
5.) When I get off the plane, hand my luggage directly to me
Maybe the idiots have more in common with you than you think?
If you're not willing to fix 2 and 5, as well as airlines losing, misdirecting, or mishandling/damaging luggage, then you will get people like me who refuse to ever check a bag. I'd like everything I bring with me to show up, intact, and not have to wait on baggage at the other end, so I carry it with me. (I do, however, make sure it fits well within the specified carry-on dimensions, so I never have problems fitting it easily into the overhead bin.)
I don't mind gate-checked bags as much; that solves every problem except for damaged/mishandled luggage, and in particular I know I can simply pick up the bag directly from the cart on the tarmac when I get off the plane. That only tends to happen for tiny planes, though, and I don't know that it'd scale to a 400-person flight.
Personally, I'd like to see a solution that involves finer-grained boarding. Don't board a dozen rows at a time; board in outside-in order, so that everyone walks directly to the correct row, loads their luggage in parallel without blocking anyone, and sits down in parallel.
People with less money than you = idiots. Nice sentiment to have ????
For business travelers, it's not about the money. Most of us get free checked bags because of airline status anyway. It's about time. I just wish not everyone, however able-bodied, felt compelled to use the rigid roller bags that take up so much room even for a 1 night trip.
When I was living in Beijing, I would do a few transpacific flights a year. Even Seattle was 12 hours away...
Supersonic flights make total sense for long hauls...it could make places like Australia or New Zealand "much closer" and less isolated.
Given that you are flying mainly short hauls, this isn't a feature designed for you.
Amtraks have a lot more fan fare than getting on a metro. They don't run that often and they sometimes fill up. It's much more like getting on a plane than a subway.
The time might get a little longer if you include time to get to the airport v. time to get to the station, but it's variable based on where particular people live.
That's probably +30-60 min though. An airport is outside a city; train stations usually are scattered within a city, with one in a very centre.
My ideal carry on baggage rules are:
- Anyone boarding with no carry on baggage has priority seat selection and boarding.
- All passengers are allowed one carry on baggage item.
- Additional carry on baggage has a $50 fee per item.
- All passengers are allowed 2 free checked bags.
- Additional checked bags have fuel offset fees.
Any airline that put this into place would immediately have all of my business the routes they operate, relevant to my travel needs.
(edit: formatting)
You definitely fly in comfort as a business passenger, but I wouldn't say you fly much more efficiently.
Not to pick on you specifically but, for a lot of people, bring less stuff. I don't use a roll-a-board for carry-on. I travel with fully legal soft-sided luggage that doesn't inflexibly take up as much space and a small computer bag. I rarely find I need to check luggage unless I'm doing activities that require sporting gear etc.
Airlines are partially to blame for this behavior as well, since they rarely enforce it or even give much guidance. People also walk very slowly into the plane, struggle to lift their stuff, then realize they need something out of the pocket so they hold up everyone while they get it. I also never understood why both doors aren't used for boarding and the planes boarded middle-first.
I bet I could get the boarding time down to about 40% of what it is right now with my suggested changes. In the security lines, there are too few lanes open and too few helpers. If I opt out of the idiot scanner, it adds at least 10 minutes, sometimes 30. I've had many TSA people be incredibly rude to me when I've opted out, one yelling at me for putting my carry on in front of another person's on the undriven, too-short conveyor belt after the same person had previously instructed me to remove my bag from the belt when I informed them I was opt-out (every other time I've flown, they make you wait like an idiot while your bag and the contents of your pockets sit on the other side of the conveyor, free for anyone else to take).
The security theatre on display is also infuriating. If one wanted to, travel with someone and have them not opt out, but grab your carry-on from the other side of the scanner while you wait for them to even call for someone to think about coming over to check the elastic in your underwear for a wine opener, which if they didn't confiscate, would have obviously been used to initialize the downfall of western civilization. Meanwhile, the random checks with guns in their pants get through the blow-hard machine all the time: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2015/06/01/poli...
My guess is that this is of no real benefit. Refueling, restocking, loading baggage, running maintenance checks, and other tasks need to happen before the airline can get the plane back into the air. Only extremely infrequently have I been on a plane that was able to roll back from the gate shortly after the last passenger boarded.
If the limiting factor here was passenger boarding times, airlines would have every incentive to improve the situation from where it is now. They have no incentive to speed up boarding to be any faster than the slowest of the rest of the preflight processes.
I always bring carry-on, not because I'm cheap, but because of exactly the reasons you mentioned regarding it being a pain in the ass to drop off and pick up checked in luggage.
The zone system and the way most airport terminals are designed make queueing and getting on the plane a horrendous cluster fsck.
Airports remind me of legacy software in many respects: they do things the way they do because they are building on foundation of garbage processes.
[1] Too many military memories
Qantas in Australia does this. If you fly often you can just order a permanent tag for your luggage. (you also get two anyway at higher FF levels)
> 5.) When I get off the plane, hand my luggage directly to me
How do you think this would work? Either the luggage or the people would have to be ordered. The way we're loading the planes and boarding, neither one is true. The carousel time is "free" for the airport, so that's the simplest solution.
People come off the plane pretty close to ordered (singled door model. A machine that reads the tags could sort the luggage cause it could know what seat you're in.
Airlines like people who carry on. It's no slower (for the airline), requires fewer ground staff, and leaves more room in the hold for paying cargo. Empty space on a plane is like fruit rotting on a supermarket shelf.
The only company that I would take seriosly right now is Aerion (http://www.aerionsupersonic.com/). They are working on a supersonic private jet (12 passengers). They already have quite a few orders (notably 20 jets for Flexjet, 120 Mil a piece) and a cooperation with Airbus, who is apparently helping them. Probably in exchange for their drag reducing "laminar flow" technology.
Building a new aircraft is a huge undertaking, both in terms of technical challenges, financing and organization. A supersonic one even more so.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but this doesn't sound too promising.
The international aviation market is probably the largest it has ever been and I believe the expectation is that it will continue to grow. That could be a factor in determining how successful the next iteration of supersonic aircraft will be. I travel from the US to New Zealand often. I don't care about getting to LAX in 1.5 hours instead of 3 but I would love to be able to go from LAX to AKL in 5 hours. The airlines would love to be able to provide quicker service to Europe or Asia from the US.
Until, of course, this sort of thing becomes trivial and super-reliable, and then the price will drop through the floor.
The Concorde was flying between 45,000 and a maximum altitude of 60,000 feet. If Boom flies at 60,000 feet, radiation is also going to be a bigger issue. I'm curious how the engineers are planning to address this.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12785320
[2] http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/AGU-NAIRAS.html
Your intuition about carbon-fiber is correct.
What I would guess they are doing though is a layered system, as it is hard to make up the difference with just dopants. Other materials are good too, like Kevlar [2]. So you layer these materials together and get better overall protection. Lots of research being done for this right now actually. NASA has some SBIR phase II funding for low weight, structural radiation shields. Though on Earth you can get away with a lot more than you could in space (launch weight).
[1] http://www.aviationdoc.com/articles/Radiation%20and%20Aircre...
[2] http://esmat.esa.int/materials_news/isme09/pdf/3-ground/s3%2...
There is a big difference between being not Sci-Fi and being economically feasible. Though arguably, there is a subset of Sci-Fi that also includes social science ideas.
“You kind of design a plane around an engine rather than the other way around,” Aboulafia says. “Let me know when we can hear their engine.”
There are plenty of other considerations outside of the factory floor and design rooms to consider - operating costs, the availability of qualified A&Ps to fix the thing, the parts network, the cost of the parts (if you buy a $15M plane, you're going to pay $15M plane prices for spares and overhauls). Insurance will surely take their pound of flesh for something that's A) a company's first product B) a new category, and C) supersonic. Finally, with the general public being decidedly anti-aviation, the noise profile of this plane might very well limit where it can fly in and out of. It's a basic matter of aeodynamics, and the same problem that the Concorde experienced almost 50 years ago.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_sonic_boom_tes...
For international flights the technology is more than proven. It's purely a market problem. I wish the boom teem well.
[1]: http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-begins-work-to-build-...
Plus anyone in the airport discussing your company will be invited for some enhanced screening.
Now JetA isn't service station gas so its slightly unfair to compare the 15 pMPG of a Concorde to a 12 MPG single passenger pickup truck. But it does give you a general idea that everything being equal (size, technology level, risk?) the supersonic plane will burn about twice the carbon footprint of a similar subsonic plane.
Note that with a full modern subsonic plane its quite easy to get a carbon footprint staggeringly better than a single driver in an obese modern SUV or truck. The problem is if you're fair and let the aircraft people use any thing they want such as 2016 technology and engineering, you have to let the car people use any thing they want, and my wife's Prius is trivially capable of providing reasonable comfort at 300 passenger miles per gallon.
Supposedly the largest 777 model does better than 70 pMPG per my commercial pilot buddy (who teased me quite a bit about my wife's Prius only getting 60 pMPG when there's only one passenger, so he burns less gas flying than she does driving). So everything being equal if stereotypical subsonic planes have roughly doubled in pMPG then its not ridiculous to expect over 30 pMPG on a modern supersonic plane. My Yaris commuter car struggles to get 30 pMPG with a single passenger (me) so to a first approximation a modern supersonic aircraft damages the environment about as much as driving alone in my subcompact commuter car. Not great, not awful. Eh.
Obviously my car's performance in transatlantic and transpacific service is somewhat inferior to the performance of the proposed plane.
So the goal was always to go supersonic as quickly as possible as the fastest she went the better the mpg got...
I never saw any hard statistics, but it's definitely not cars 90% 1 occupant, planes always near-full. It's anecdotal evidence for sure, but my car is, on average, as full as average plane I took. Especially if we count per-mile rather than per-trip.
Aacargo.com division of american airlines proudly advertises they ship 100 million pounds of cargo per week, and also advertise they have 6000 flights per day so thats averaging about a ton of cargo on every flight and a ton represents maybe ten empty passenger seats, so your average flight should have ten empty seats. Of course reality is the seats might be near empty at midnight and 100% full during the day, etc.
It's likely that the carbon footprint is several times higher, perhaps nearing an order of magnitude.
(On the other hand, I typically fly internationally in coach, which often has as much seat and leg room as domestic first class.)
Also, mach 2.2 is more than "slightly" faster than mach 0.8
I can tell you, if it's truly the same price as J, and you get a domestic FC seat -- it's totally worth it. A typical TATL-EastCoast segment is about 7-9 hours long depending on many factors. If they can cut that to 3 hours, it's a huge win.
First of all, it means that instead of leaving the EU Sunday so I can work Monday morning, I could leave Monday morning about 8AM, and arrive in the USA (assume I have one connection, could be on either side) about 8AM. I've just gained an entire (_weekend_) day of my life back.
Now going home, TATL flights are always overnight. Instead though, I could sleep in a normal bed, get up at 4/5am (I try and stay on EU time anyway for my 5-day trips, get up early, go to bed early), and then land same day and be home before dinner -- and not spend the entire arrival day running on 5 hours of (crap) "sleep".
Not true, at least NY to London. You can leave in the AM and arrive (relatively late) at night.
Apparently the Concorde was only purchased/operated by Air France and British Airways, on transAtlantic routes.
The routes given for this plane - across the pacific - are not over land.
Can this plane go supersonic over land?
The problem is not technical, but regulatory. The Concorde's sonic boom was very loud and a big nuisance. That's why it was forbidden.
There are multiple supersonic jets in development (private jets), that all plan on having a much reduced sonic boom that should allow regulations to be lifted. But that will have to be demonstrated to regulators first.
If you can't fly supersonic overland, it severely limits the utility and the possible routes.
Supersonic aircraft are TERRIBLY inefficient when flying subsonic, and use up a lot of fuel when doing so.
Cut it down to five hours, and I'll gladly pay $5000 for a round trip ticket.
As faster satellite wifi becomes a thing the longer flights are tolerable, but it's still time you could be on the ground doing something more useful.
On the other hand, I'm very doubtful about Boom; the fact that they mostly seem to be talking about the passenger cabin does not inspire a ton of confidence, and even if they get their plane built, I have doubts about their ticket price projections.
I suspect that it's highly questionable whether a supersonic design would be able to do the "brutally long" flights without refueling. The market for the Concorde and I imagine the market for this is the CEO/investment banker/international lawyer who wants to do a quick hop from NYC to London or Paris--including day trips.
Edit: also, lovely big windows.
Building an economically attractive passenger plane is the first part. Then it'll need to be certified. At some point, it'll have to be sold for profit.
I genuinely wish them good luck. They chose a formidable challenge.
Proposed title change: clear which company was pushing supersonic air travel, but unclear what kind of company it is.
Actual title change: unclear that a company is involved at all. What is "Boom"? Do they just mean that a general economic boom is going to bring supersonic air travel back?
Edit: I have worked on several teams in the past where the leadership consisted of people who "don't know what can't be done". They hire a bunch of domain experts, then ignore and/or contradict them until the company runs out of money.