Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by antognini on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:54PM
(#12736393)
In one of my interstellar medium classes I remember learning about the physicist Geoffrey Taylor's estimate of the yield of the first atomic bomb. At the time, the energy of the atomic bomb was classified information, but photographs of the explosion like this one [1] had been published in newspapers and magazines. Crucially, this photograph was labelled with both the time after the explosion, and a scale bar. With just this information Taylor found it was fairly simple to calculate the energy of the explosion. He ended up publishing two papers about it [2] [3]. In astrophysics, his calculations are now used when modeling the effect of a supernova on the surrounding interstellar medium.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by semi-extrinsic on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:57PM
(#12737022)
Those WW2 era photos are interesting, and I like the story about Taylor's analysis, but what really spooks me from early atomic bomb tests are the Rapatronic photos by Edgerton.
He took high-speed photography to the ultimate limits, at exposure times of 10^-8 seconds, and the pictures are absolutely eerie looking. Some are like gaping skulls of pure energy, like this one:
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by SamReidHughes on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:39PM
(#12738445)
From the article: "This is 1/100,000,000th of a second after the first photo."
A 100 millionth of a light-second is about 10 feet, the tower was 100 feet. So that couldn't have been the time between exposures, and they used multiple cameras anyway.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by lobster_johnson on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:15PM
(#12739596)
I don't think that's the first image in the sequence, just the most famous one. They took a lot of images in sequence. Here they are edited together into a sequence (several series, presumably from multiple tests, unfortunately looks a bit incomplete): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQp1ox-SdRI
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by mirimir on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:19PM
(#12739618)
I gather that some of the lumpiness is caused by imperfections in the strength and time synchronization of the implosion. Ideally, you'd see spheres. There are also bumps caused by flanges, ports, etc in the casing.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by kkylin on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:11PM
(#12736570)
Thank you. I had known about Taylor's work from a course on scaling methods in continuum mechanics (it is also one of the introductory examples in Barenblatt's very nice book Scaling), but did not know that it has other applications.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by michaelcampbell on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:20PM
(#12740495)
I don't know why (perhaps the other-worldly look of the explosion at such a small amount of time after detonation), but this picture and the picture of the Howitzer delivered mushroom cloud, has always filled me with absolute dread and horror. I think for different reasons.
The former just looks so ... weird, and scary, and like anyone witnessing it would know that's the last thing they'll see. The latter because of the implications of what we have the power to do, and probably won't be able to resist actually doing.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by Kenji on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:52PM
(#12736356)
I just love how practically minded these men were. Whatever they had available to them, they made it work somehow. If you want to read another account of the Manhattan Project / first nukes, I highly recommend the book "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!" which contains a wealth of interesting and funny (and sometimes touching) trivia about the life of Feynman and how things went at Los Alamos.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by de_Selby on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @05:17PM
(#12738804)
Fermi was famous for this kind of thing, he could calculate the answer to a problem where it seemed like there wasn't enough information as if by magic.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by dekhn on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @09:36AM
(#12743613)
Not calculate, estimate. You come up with a simple mathematical model- often just adding or multipling a few numbers together. It's not magic, he just had a good sense for including all the 0th and 1st order terms.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by meerita on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:01PM
(#12739133)
Imagine to witness a Tsar Bomba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba 64km tall mushroom head. About 8 kilometres (5.0 mi) in diameter, was prevented from touching the ground by the shock wave, but nearly reached the 10.5-kilometre (6.5 mi) altitude of the deploying Tu-95 bomber
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by chiefofgxbxl on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:39PM
(#12740582)
Due to the blast in the desert, quartz and other minerals in the sand were melted to form Trinitite, a green glass. Would be interesting to hold this piece of history in a museum (according to Wikipedia, it's safe to handle).
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by tehchromic on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:36PM
(#12737350)
Once had a job working in the basement of a building in Los Alamos NM operating a digital scanner to digitize various documents from the lab archives. I encountered a few boxes of photos of various atomic tests - beautiful and spooky.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by coldcode on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:26PM
(#12736737)
Seeing a black and white description of an explosion estimated at 10,000 tons of TNT is still mind-boggling. Even harder to believe that within a decade or so there were explosions of 100,000,000 tons of TNT. E=MC2 gets big in a hurry.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by Retric on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:47PM
(#12736929)
No single nuclear weapon detonation ever hit 100,000,000 tons of TNT. There are designs for weapons in that range, and single example at 1/2 that power. However, such designs are impractical as using the same material to carpet bomb an area is more effective.
PS: Before the H-Bomb nuclear weapons where not actually cost effective per ton. Their 'advantage' over high explosives was portability and fear.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by astrodust on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:13PM
(#12737156)
The Tsar Bomba was supposed to be in this range, but the allegedly the designer of the weapon started to fear his own creation and decided to tamper with it and tone down the yield.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by InclinedPlane on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:15PM
(#12739594)
The Tsar Bomba is a 100MT design, there's zero doubt it could achieve that yield. However, like most thermonuclear weapons roughly half of that yield would have come from fission in the natural uranium casing. Essentially every neutron from a fusion reaction has the ability to cause fissioning of U-238, and when you do all the math it works out to release as much energy as the fusion reactions.
But that would have meant that the test would have released 50MT worth of fission byproduct fallout, about an order of magnitude more than the roughly 7-8MT worth of fallout accidentally retired released in the castle bravo test. Since the USSR's test sites were on land, such a release was daunting, so instead they changed the device for the test and used an inert material for the casing. The end result was that the 50MT test was comparatively very "clean" with most of the yield coming from fusion.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by krylon on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:57PM
(#12737543)
I kind of remember reading that somebody involved in the creation / testing of that bomb made a rough estimate of the area covered by the fallout and decided to ditch the U-238 damper on the second (third?) stage.
Also, getting the plane dropping the bomb to a safe distance before the explosion was kind of an act as it was, if the bomb had gone off at twice the yield, it probably would have killed the crew.
(All this is from rather fuzzy memory, though! If somebody has less fuzzy information, I'd be happy to stand corrected!)
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by arethuza on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:34PM
(#12737915)
From my own fuzzy memories that's correct - a full 100MT device would have been a pretty awful weapon, I've seen it described as something that could have utterly destroyed Belgium but that would have killed people in Russia with fallout.
I seem to recall that the Tsar Bomb had multiple tertiary stages?
Nitpick: it's tamper not damper.
Also without a fissioning tamper round it's secondary and tertiary stages the Tsar Bomb actually was a "fusion bomb" in that a very high proportion of its yield came from fusion. In most H-bomb designs most of the yield comes from the fissioning of the tamper round the secondary.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by astrodust on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:54PM
(#12738617)
With bombs of this type you can chain things on several times and really amp up the yield. The theoretical limit, if there is one, is absolutely nuts, like 500MT or more.
The problem is that beyond a certain yield most of the explosive force punches up through the atmosphere and is wasted. Apart from shock and awe, not sure what the utility of something that big would ever be.
Additionally since a spherical explosion of double the diameter takes eight times as much energy to create, you quickly run into diminishing returns. Lots of smaller bombs is more effective, hence MIRVs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targeta...
Nuclear weapons are so awesome and so utterly insane at the same time.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by mikeash on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:15PM
(#12737177)
Surely the pre-thermonuclear bombs also had a big advantage in ease of delivery? One bomber could do what previously took a thousand, which means that a bomber fleet could destroy a bunch of cities simultaneously, instead of hitting a couple of cities per week as in the Second World War.
The super-large bombs weren't entirely impractical. Hitting an area with multiple smaller bombs is indeed far more effective, if you can accurately deliver a bunch of smaller bombs at once. There was a period where that wasn't a given, and they tried to make up for inaccuracy with explosive power. The 100Mt bomb was never deployed (or, indeed, built other than the one de-rated test article) but both the US and USSR deployed 25Mt bombs.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by Retric on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:04PM
(#12738142)
Carpet bombing a larger area means you need even less precision. Picture throwing a 10 darts at a dart board with a 2 foot radius, vs 1 dart with a 4 foot radius.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by Declanomous on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:43PM
(#12736239)
Assuming the paper shifted perfectly laterally, I assume you'd just be measuring the difference in the volume of half a sphere ten miles in radius, and a sphere ten miles and 2.5 meters in radius. I think you could use the ideal gas law at that point to figure out the energy.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by iaw on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:00PM
(#12736455)
I think you're right. Ideal gas law wouldn't apply to the plasma sphere but knowing shockwave strength at some distance you can figure out how much energy was transferred to the atmosphere.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by adrianratnapala on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:54PM
(#12737518)
I agree the calculation probably worked by measuring the kinectic energy of that half-shell by measuring its velocity*thickness directly using pieces of paper.
Perhaps the more important thing is that things are happening on very short time-scales, far enough from equilibrium and temperature might not even be well defined.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by spirographer on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @06:07AM
(#12742478)
Is there any way to determine exactly when this document was written? I've read accounts that indicate that it took some time (weeks, months, years?) before the metaphor of mushroom shaped cloud entered into the vocabulary used by witnesses of atomic weapons. Fermi's account would disprove that assertion if it were written immediately after the test at Trinity.
Re:My observations during the explosion at Trinity (1945)
by craftandhustle on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:24PM
(#12740512)
While reading this, I started wondering if there are any other 3rd party (civilian?) accounts of the event or if the geography / remoteness made it 'invisible' to everyone else? I have a funny visual in my head of a random farmer casually mentioning to his wife a 'weird glow in the horizon' on an otherwise regular Monday morning.
[1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Tr...
[2]: http://rspa.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/201/1065/159
[3]: http://rspa.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/201/1065/175
He took high-speed photography to the ultimate limits, at exposure times of 10^-8 seconds, and the pictures are absolutely eerie looking. Some are like gaping skulls of pure energy, like this one:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Tumbler_...
http://petapixel.com/2014/03/05/rapatronic-camera-atomic-bla...
A 100 millionth of a light-second is about 10 feet, the tower was 100 feet. So that couldn't have been the time between exposures, and they used multiple cameras anyway.
The Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapatronic_camera says the exposure times were several microseconds.
The former just looks so ... weird, and scary, and like anyone witnessing it would know that's the last thing they'll see. The latter because of the implications of what we have the power to do, and probably won't be able to resist actually doing.
So far, so good.
Any recommendations on biographies of Fermi?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitite
There were lots of signs warning about it on the bunker when I visited in 2003/4.
[1]https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/free_dow...
PS: Before the H-Bomb nuclear weapons where not actually cost effective per ton. Their 'advantage' over high explosives was portability and fear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba
But that would have meant that the test would have released 50MT worth of fission byproduct fallout, about an order of magnitude more than the roughly 7-8MT worth of fallout accidentally retired released in the castle bravo test. Since the USSR's test sites were on land, such a release was daunting, so instead they changed the device for the test and used an inert material for the casing. The end result was that the 50MT test was comparatively very "clean" with most of the yield coming from fusion.
Also, getting the plane dropping the bomb to a safe distance before the explosion was kind of an act as it was, if the bomb had gone off at twice the yield, it probably would have killed the crew.
(All this is from rather fuzzy memory, though! If somebody has less fuzzy information, I'd be happy to stand corrected!)
I seem to recall that the Tsar Bomb had multiple tertiary stages?
Nitpick: it's tamper not damper.
Also without a fissioning tamper round it's secondary and tertiary stages the Tsar Bomb actually was a "fusion bomb" in that a very high proportion of its yield came from fusion. In most H-bomb designs most of the yield comes from the fissioning of the tamper round the secondary.
The problem is that beyond a certain yield most of the explosive force punches up through the atmosphere and is wasted. Apart from shock and awe, not sure what the utility of something that big would ever be.
Additionally since a spherical explosion of double the diameter takes eight times as much energy to create, you quickly run into diminishing returns. Lots of smaller bombs is more effective, hence MIRVs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targeta...
Nuclear weapons are so awesome and so utterly insane at the same time.
The super-large bombs weren't entirely impractical. Hitting an area with multiple smaller bombs is indeed far more effective, if you can accurately deliver a bunch of smaller bombs at once. There was a period where that wasn't a given, and they tried to make up for inaccuracy with explosive power. The 100Mt bomb was never deployed (or, indeed, built other than the one de-rated test article) but both the US and USSR deployed 25Mt bombs.
I'm just guessing though.
But I wouldn't count the ideal gas law out (see http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/43696/will-ideal-...). My guess is that the huge temperatures involved will work in favour of an ideal-gas approximation.
Perhaps the more important thing is that things are happening on very short time-scales, far enough from equilibrium and temperature might not even be well defined.
Let us download a PDF at least.