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Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by Zanni on Sunday October 09, 2016 @11:22PM (#12674832)
The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have a massively increased cognitive load of paying attention, not just to the traffic on the street, but to everything that may be emerging from a car or from between cars.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by Ankaios on Monday October 10, 2016 @02:01AM (#12675328)
Holland didn't get rid of street parking. They just became more careful about about how they placed it relative to bike lanes, sidewalks, and traffic lanes.

The issue of lines-of-sight around parked cars is a big deal, and as you said, it's critical for drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists alike. Part of the solution is to make sure that the no-parking regions near intersections are appropriately sized for the speed of the street—they need to be long enough that drivers can actually see that there are no cars that will collide during the time it takes them to pull out. (I'm disturbed by how often this isn't the case in residential neighborhoods in the south bay.) Another part of the solution could be curb extensions, to physically prevent cars from parking near the intersection and allow pedestrians to see more clearly. (And ease the ability of drivers and cyclists to see pedestrians.) There are probably other tools that would help, but those seem like they would yield a big improvement.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by paulddraper on Sunday October 09, 2016 @11:36PM (#12674871)
"As a bicyclist...As a pedestrian...As a driver"

Uh huh. 100% agree. Street parking is especially dangerous because it is not sufficient to look for the presence of a car; I must look for the presence of a car, and continue looking until I ascertain whether it's one of the dozens of parked vehicles.

But...street parking is also very convenient. Streets are very close to where people want to get to; no need to walk from a parking garage a half mile away. And practically speaking, it would be hard to imagine how to change existing cities.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by ehnto on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:29AM (#12675049)
I have never found street parking convenient. It will depend on where you live but I tend to find that it's never available so you wind through the streets and inevitably end up far from where you wanted to be.

Thinking specifically of CBD type locations, removing street parking and having more mobility on foot or bicycle works better for me because I can drive straight to a big parking building, then move swiftly to where I need to be.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by mercer on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:25AM (#12675219)
A citywide bike program with pick-up points in logical places might solve that.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by huehehue on Monday October 10, 2016 @11:54AM (#12677812)
"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

Street parking is very convenient for the people that get it.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by Tiktaalik on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:16AM (#12675012)
You don't have to get rid of street parking entirely. Another option is to put a separated bike lane between the parked cars and the sidewalk. This way cyclists are protected from traffic and parked cars (ensure a bit of room for the passenger door).

Also the increased cognitive load of having to pay attention to many things occurring on the road is not necessarily a bad thing. There is evidence that having to pay attention to many things forces drivers to slow down, which is safer and results in less injuries and deaths. In contrast wide lanes allow drivers to feel comfortable which increases their speed and results in more dangerous roads for pedestrians.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by amorphid on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:30AM (#12675052)
On my commute to work, the "bike lane" is shared between bicycles, cars, parked cars (between the bikers and sidewalk), and busses. Basically, they painted bike logos on the asphalt in an already jam packed lane and told everyone to share!
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by Tiktaalik on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:42AM (#12675089)
Sounds like a typical "Sharrow" bike lane, which is supposed to be a portmanteau of "share" and "arrow" but is often described as a "shitty arrow" because of how dangerous and ineffective these bike lanes are.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by Zombieball on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:27AM (#12675227)
A lot of Vancouver's bike lanes are setup in this manner (road --> parking --> bike lane --> sidewalk).

I have seen the occasional bike get doored by passengers not checking before opening their door. But I imagine this occurrence is much less than if the bike lane were on the driver's side.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by BoringCode on Sunday October 09, 2016 @11:31PM (#12674856)
So where should the cars park then? Parking is a real issue in large cities and we won't solve it by removing even more spots. Other solutions (which are potentially more expensive) should be looked into before we consider removing street parking.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by zik on Sunday October 09, 2016 @11:41PM (#12674890)
In big cities these days most parking is off street anyway. A trend to remove on street parking in favor of better pedestrian safety and improved traffic flow can only be a positive.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by colmvp on Sunday October 09, 2016 @11:55PM (#12674935)
I live in a big city that is having a similar debate of bike lanes sacrificing space for on-street parking.

And it's a frustrating debate.

Look, I drive. I love parking spaces because I hate looking for parking.

But I also know that as more people move into the city, we need alternative modes of transportation. It's simply unsustainable to add more parking spaces in the hopes of alleviating the lack of supply. We're better off increasing usage of alternative forms of transportation by installing bike lanes (which when properly designed, unequivocally encourages bike usage) and increasing funding for mass transit.

And on-street parking can be so frustrating on major streets as people have to brake and reverse into a spot, stopping traffic. Or they crawl at a much slower pace as they try finding an open spot. Or they force awkward lane changes as there is inconsistencies as to whether or not the lane is drivable/parkable.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by lucaspiller on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:56AM (#12675121)
The other day somebody posted something saying how more lanes in a road will just cause more people to drive, so won't do anything to reduce traffic. I'd imagine it works the same for parking and even in reverse.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by flukus on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:59AM (#12675129)
Were they talking about induced demand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand ?
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by closeparen on Monday October 10, 2016 @03:32AM (#12675626)
>will just cause more people to drive

They obviously preferred to do so (since they chose it), and maybe the new lane let some more people afford the house/commute-time pair they wanted.

It's true that induced demand means aggregate travel times don't go down, but more people getting where they need to go in the same amount of time is a victory too.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by umanwizard on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:27AM (#12675225)
People shouldn't be trying to drive and park in major city centers. Exceptions can be made for deliveries.

I live in a major city and I don't have a car. Parking is no issue for me at all :)

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by closeparen on Monday October 10, 2016 @03:17AM (#12675589)
Ah, but

- astronomical housing costs in the small radius of convenient non-driving commutes to the downtown business district

- exposure to high crime and dysfunctional public schools (possibly requiring the purchase of private K12) in said radius

- travel times to common destinations by public transit 2-3x driving, meaning less engagement with the rest of the world or less free time

- One of

a) standing on a lurching vehicle with an arm raised over your head, rather than sitting in a vehicle as comfortable and smooth as you care to make it

b) cardio, outdoors in whatever the weather happens to be, with no shower at the not-home end of the trip

c) the cost of another person's time to drive you, in addition to the usual fuel + wear and tear

required to get anywhere

are all issues of parking, in that they can all be avoided with more parking and are all exacerbated/forced to the forefront of more people's lives with less parking.

If you are in a US city and truly exposed to none of these, please let me know which one so I can move there.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by hx87 on Monday October 10, 2016 @11:23AM (#12677563)
I don't know about you, but if 2 hour commutes by car are acceptable for people, I don't know why 2 hour walks (~8 miles) or 2 hour bike rides (~20 miles) are not.

b) hasn't ever been a problem for me regardless of the weather--a wipe down with bath wipes and a change of clothes (plus a cold drink) was always sufficient.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by cerebellum42 on Monday October 10, 2016 @07:18AM (#12676372)
To be fair, a lot of these problems are induced by having such car-focused cities in the first place. That extreme focus on making cities car-compatible makes them less livable for every other user of the infrastructure (cyclists, pedestrians, public transport users).

In my opinion the right way to go would be to drastically improve public transport (so it actually IS a competitive option) and in an overlapping process reduce car infrastructure and replace it with pedestrian/cycling/public transport infrastructure.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by BoringCode on Monday October 10, 2016 @09:04AM (#12676823)
> I live in a major city and I don't have a car. Parking is no issue for me at all :)

So do I actually. But a lot of people do and for that reason it would be far too idealistic to think about removing cars from American cities.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by lmm on Monday October 10, 2016 @05:44AM (#12676070)
Remove street parking, narrow the streets (the space that used to be parking spaces doesn't need to be part of the street). Use some of the reclaimed space to build space-efficient parking (i.e. a high-rise parking garage), sell some of what's left to cover the cost, use the remainder for things of civic value (whatever we consider those to be - parks, museums, low-income housing, cafes...)
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by vvpan on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:12AM (#12675181)
That is unrealistic and has very bad consequences on the neighborhood. I've heard urban planners (in lectures) say that when there is not a row of parked cars between a street and the sidewalk, people are much less likely to walk and spend time there. So, for example, businesses close along a street when parking is suddenly prohibited. And, as others pointed out, in most cities it is unrealistic due to how little parking there is available.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by djsumdog on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:39AM (#12675272)
If America had a real public transport/rail system in all its major cities, this would be way less of an issue. It did at one point. America had an amazing tram network in many cities. Every city I lived in use to have trams.

Instead of upgrading trams like St. Petersburg, Melbourne and most of Europe did, America scraped trams due to lobbying efforts of car companies to switch to shitty buses.

The Netherlands have amazing train and tram networks throughout their cities. It's not uncommon to see bicycles piled up and belted to the wall in the bike section of each train.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by awjr on Monday October 10, 2016 @03:47AM (#12675678)
It wasn't just lobbying but I do think it was death through a 1000 cuts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by hanspeter on Monday October 10, 2016 @03:00AM (#12675524)
It's not completely unrealistic: http://minby.dk/noerrebronordvest-bladet/wp-content/uploads/... (Copenhagen, Denmark).
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by Tharkun on Monday October 10, 2016 @02:04AM (#12675336)
That's hilariously silly. Based on what? Their own love of cars? Research in car-centric communities?
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by Nav_Panel on Monday October 10, 2016 @09:14AM (#12676879)
This makes sense if the road is wide and fast, like in suburban cores: the point is to separate pedestrians from noisy, dangerous cars going upwards of 30 mph.

This makes no sense for local city traffic.

> in most cities it is unrealistic due to how little parking there is available

This is a problem with how American cities are designed. Ideally, one shouldn't need to own a car at all in a major city. In Manhattan, for example, it's ridiculous that the government (and therefore residents) subsidize cars by providing free street parking all over the island. Very, very few people who live there own a car. But I digress.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by hx87 on Monday October 10, 2016 @11:26AM (#12677578)
> I've heard urban planners (in lectures) say that when there is not a row of parked cars between a street and the sidewalk, people are much less likely to walk and spend time there.

Have they considered replacing the parking lane with a bike lane instead of regular traffic?

> And, as others pointed out, in most cities it is unrealistic due to how little parking there is available.

That's purely a supply and demand issue--because of how cheap street parking is, the price of parking is very low and thus elevated parking garages are uneconomical. If only elevated parking is available, that changes.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by adrianN on Monday October 10, 2016 @04:45AM (#12675882)
Works perfectly in Japan, so I'd say that the urban planners are either full of shit or there were more variables than just a row of parked cars.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by cft on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:05AM (#12674971)
In San Francisco, especially in the southern neighborhoods, they simply park in the bike lanes: pick up trucks, cleaning services vans, even ice cream carts! Park for 15, 30, 45 minutes.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by jacquesm on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:09AM (#12674984)
That's an enforcement problem. If you did this in Amsterdam you'd likely return to a car without mirrors and wipers.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by mslot on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:29AM (#12675234)
Or rather, an almost instant traffic fine between $100 and $400.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by dominotw on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:18AM (#12675021)
>you'd likely return to a car without mirrors and wipers

what happens to them?

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by jacquesm on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:31AM (#12675055)
Some people would get extremely upset at blocking the bike lane and forcing cyclists into traffic or over the sidewalk. A passing scooter might not make it in time and is likely to clip your mirrors in the process depending on how much room they have to maneuver (likely not a lot or you wouldn't be parking in the bike lane to begin with). As for the wipers, that would likely be vandalism, but it's still cheaper to fix than the parking ticket that would follow immediately if your car would not be towed to the municipal holding facility from where you can 'buy it back' for a sum that will remind you not to park your car like that for the rest of your life (419 Euros) for being an impediment to traffic safety.

Seriously, if you're in Amsterdam and you feel like parking in a bike lane is acceptable please do not do it, it will not end well.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by dominotw on Monday October 10, 2016 @11:24AM (#12677569)
Weird. Govt has to be complicit in supporting vandalism if its such a common occurrence.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by jacquesm on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:46PM (#12678235)
No, it's not common at all. Nobody in their right mind would do this, those that do will get the message quickly, it's totally anti-social to block a bike path and dangerous to boot.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by solatic on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:39AM (#12675270)
Getting rid of street parking hurts people with handicapped permits. In Israel, if you are eligible for a handicapped permit then you can get a street parking space in front of your apartment building reserved for your car (with signage saying that if the car parked there doesn't specifically have license plate number X then it will be towed). Telling these people to go a few blocks to an underground parking garage, even if that garage is accessible, directly hampers their mobility and independence.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by jacalata on Monday October 10, 2016 @02:29AM (#12675410)
Well in America that doesn't exist, so street parking must not affect disabled people on America. Or maybe "street parking" is too vague a term.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by 1812calif on Monday October 10, 2016 @05:56PM (#12680066)
I live in California. My neighbors are disabled and got blue curb for handicap in front of their place when they moved in.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by mrsuprawsm on Monday October 10, 2016 @11:11AM (#12677484)
We have the same in NL. Accessibility doesn't need to suffer at the hands of bike lanes
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by carterehsmith on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:23AM (#12675215)
Yeah I would love to see that. At least on main-ish streets, particularly those with streetcars.

So then, streetcar would be in the righmost lane, not blocking other lanes like it does now. And the streetcar passengers would not have to step on the street, which is obviously dangerous.

And, I would equip streetcars with plows, to deal with people that still park in the right lane, especially in rush hour. + Permit the streetcar drivers to crash the plow into the car blocking the lane, long as the streetcar driver says, "Oops, sorry about that"

That would be most satisfying to watch. The right-lane-blocking assholes would now have a natural predator, and they will either be crushed, or forced to a different habitat.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by travmatt on Monday October 10, 2016 @10:54AM (#12677389)
You can also angle the parking spots. My town has parking spots that aren't parallel to the street, instead roughly 45 degrees.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by robbrown451 on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:06AM (#12675160)
I think that's pretty unrealistic, until we get car sharing and autonomous taxis and the like to a point where there just isn't a need for street parking.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by Tiktaalik on Monday October 10, 2016 @05:38PM (#12679958)
Autonomous cars will still need to pull over to let off passengers, where they could come into conflict with bike lanes (taxis already dangerously pull into bike lanes to drop off passengers). There is still a need for explicitly separated bike lanes and parking spots for cars.

I'm excited for the advent of autonomous cars, but their introduction is not really going to solve any of the current problems with our road network.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by umanwizard on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:29AM (#12675237)
We have had subways, buses, and trolleys for 100 years or more. That's car sharing at scale.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by robbrown451 on Monday October 10, 2016 @02:13PM (#12678821)
Then why are people still using cars? My guess: public transportation is too slow (e.g. having to stop every couple blocks) and not granular enough (have to walk to stop, have to wait). Also it is often unpleasant, being crammed in with so many.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by ams6110 on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:48AM (#12675106)
Why not get rid of bike lanes where you have street parking?
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by umanwizard on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:30AM (#12675239)
Where the interests of cyclists and drivers conflict, we should prioritize cycling, because it has no negative externalities, requires much cheaper infrastructure, is good for health, etc.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by hueving on Monday October 10, 2016 @01:43AM (#12675281)
If it causes the drivers to do something extremely inefficient (e.g. drive around the block for a half hour looking for parking), then it's a negative externality. Cyclists do not exist in a vacuum.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by antisthenes on Monday October 10, 2016 @12:37PM (#12678155)
What you're describing is not an externality at all. It's an explicit cost to the driver that will hopefully make them alter their behavior.

It makes the parking (end goal) more expensive to them via both time (additional time to park) and money (gas wasted during finding the parking spot), so it is reflected in the cost of the good. Thus it is not an externality.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by hueving on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @11:48PM (#12690321)
No, if they don't care it's not entirely reflected in the good. This happens quite frequently with emissions. If you do something that causes a bunch more people to produce emissions (e.g. Lower the cost of gasoline by 90%), you are partially responsible for those externalities.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by awjr on Monday October 10, 2016 @03:50AM (#12675689)
I think you're missing the point. In Amsterdam cars are guests on many roads. The transport infrastructure very much supports walking, cycling, and use of public transport. The car is a very very inefficient use of road space.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by hx87 on Monday October 10, 2016 @11:28AM (#12677601)
> drive around the block for a half hour looking for parking

That would be a dumb thing to do, unless you value your time very little. Why not just park in the nearest garage?

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by hueving on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @11:51PM (#12690328)
Most people don't value their time that highly. Most middle class Americans for example would rather waste the half hour rather than spend $40 or whatever to take a cab from the suburb into the city.

This disconnect is the reason a lot of silicon valley startups flounder outside of silicon valley. Most of the US population can't afford to throw away $10 to save 20 mins.

Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by closeparen on Monday October 10, 2016 @03:25AM (#12675604)
Making driving worse has the pretty significant negative externality of decreasing the n minutes to downtown land area, forcing people to spend more money on housing or more time in transit.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by cr1895 on Monday October 10, 2016 @04:31AM (#12675826)
At least in the context of Amsterdam, it's already a terrible city for driving. The housing market in Amsterdam is (and will continue to get more) ridiculous, but certainly not due to lack of parking or cycling-prioritized city planning.
Re:The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from ... by lmm on Monday October 10, 2016 @05:46AM (#12676078)
Sure, that's a choice we have to make as society, deciding which we consider more valuable.