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Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by dandare on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @06:49PM (#12648639)
I am annoyed by something else: today Apple stepped on the wrong toe, the community will cry foul and someone from Apple who reads HN will rush to salvage the situation. We have seen this pattern before (usually but not exclusively with Apple). But what about the thousands of small and nameless developers that were crushed by some script bug or killed by operator misclick? Who will ever help them?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by vbezhenar on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @06:57PM (#12648678)
Human support is supposed to help them.

What I found unacceptable is "We are banning you and we won't tell you anything about it". This pattern is extremely common. And extremely frustrating. You can't put one in jail without telling why (and right to defend). In many developed countries you can't even fire a worker without a solid reason. It should be prohibited for companies to halt service someone without providing a reasonable explanation.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by CalRobert on Thursday October 06, 2016 @04:25AM (#12650969)
I am banned from being an Amazon marketplace seller. I have no idea why. They say there is no way to learn more, and it's for life. I've never even sold anything there.

My wife was banned a bit before more. She sold one textbook and fulfilled the transaction perfectly. She found out she was banned when they said they were keeping her money for 45 days, and they would be kind enough to release it to her if the buyer confirmed receipt of the book (they did, and she did get her money eventually).

Based on the mail that was arriving, we _think_ that someone who lived at our apartment before us was doing something shady. Amazon doesn't care though.

This kind of thing is why it's incredibly frustrating that people blithely let a few companies control most commerce.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by PakG1 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @04:52AM (#12651041)
I wonder if that attitude is reflective of simply how tech companies whitelist and blacklist stuff for many things. Once, my organization's email server was considered a spammer because it had a new IP address that apparently was part of a blacklisted IP block. It took us so long to get everything sorted out and get ourselves off of all the blacklists.

Admittedly, we at least had recourse, while you don't for whatever reason, in the event that you one day do want to become a marketplace seller. My point is that it's really easy to get blacklisted. Perhaps it's because they prefer to have some false positives, rather than deal with real bad actors. Just a conjecture.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by rurban on Sunday October 09, 2016 @06:12PM (#12673826)
You really should be able to sue them for cheap. Like filing it by yourself, without any lawyer, at a small claims or conciliation court (<$5000). There should be a guide explaining how to do that and the justice ministry needs to support that guide. Lawyers will not come up with such things. E.g. http://hirealawyer.findlaw.com/do-you-need-a-lawyer/before-y...

Might be $500 max for the court fees.

Then they eventually have to explain it and litigate with you. And eventually revise their ridiculous CS practices.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by CalRobert on Monday October 10, 2016 @04:25AM (#12675805)
Thanks for the comment. I might even pursue that if I still cared but I left the country which makes that option substantially more inconvenient.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by CalRobert on Thursday October 06, 2016 @06:27AM (#12651346)
Ugg, I meant "a bit before _me_". Not "more". too late to edit though.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by sithadmin on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:49PM (#12648982)
>It should be prohibited for companies to halt service someone without providing a reasonable explanation.

By US standards, that would require an absurd level of legislative and/or judicial overreach. I don't think I'd even want to do business in that kind of regulatory climate.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by brokentone on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:59PM (#12649045)
This is very true. However, I wonder if we as engineers and the like can provide a better TLDR ratings guide for marketplaces. Kinda like https://tosdr.org/ or a BBB that works... Then we as engineers refuse to build apps for marketplaces below some kind of score.

Or does it even matter if the Apple App store is the only marketplace of its kind?

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by weaksauce on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:04PM (#12649072)
If people are making money on a platform, people will develop for it regardless of these issues. Unfortunate reality.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by jeffbr13 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:05PM (#12649322)
Democracy only works in a growing economy.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by abakker on Thursday October 06, 2016 @04:22AM (#12650954)
Why is this a meme? Is there any evidence that this is true?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by abakker on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:56AM (#12651686)
Self reply- it appears that Sam Altman made this assertion in a recent New Yorker article as well as a blog post. I think the observation of low growth is good, but the assertion that democracy does t work without a economic growth is less persuasive. All forms of progress need not be measured by GDP. In fact, many issues indicative of social progress have difficult to measure economic impact or even potentially negative economic impact with good social benefits.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by dandare on Thursday October 06, 2016 @03:49PM (#12655485)
On a related note, as a small startup I am looking for some TOS generator that I - the single developer - could also understand and that will be clear and fair to my users. Any advice?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by llwt on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:52PM (#12657367)
Iubenda,https://www.iubenda.com/en, has worked well for us.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by brokentone on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:14PM (#12656170)
Excellent question. I know of no answer, but maybe part of the issue of terrible TOS's is lack of resources to write good ones?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by blazespin on Thursday October 06, 2016 @02:02AM (#12650529)
On the contrary, that's exactly the environment I'd want to do biz in. Some kind of pro-small biz small claims legislation.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by pc86 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @09:12AM (#12652125)
An environment where anyone you provide services to can take you to court because they don't find your explanation "reasonable"?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by CamperBob2 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:10PM (#12656893)
Any sufficiently dominant monopoly is indistinguishable from a government.

So, choose your poison. We can govern them, or they can govern us.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by kolinko on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:10AM (#12651749)
Well, even in US there are antitrust laws, right?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by usrusr on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:13AM (#12651765)
How could that be worse than doing business in an environment of dominant platforms that will arbitrarily shut you down whenever the business they lose to a false positive (i.e. none, because the business just moves to the next guy) is cheaper than the investigation that would avoid the false positive?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by Certhas on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:52AM (#12651259)
Electricity providers, water providers, road maintanance, phone systems, etc... Infrastructure everywhere is either in public hands or tightly regulated. Infrastructure provision is simply not a problem for which unregulated markets are a good solution, for fairly obvious reasons.

Sooner or later the IT infrastructure companies will need to be regulated like infrastructure providers.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by rubber_duck on Thursday October 06, 2016 @06:49AM (#12651408)
The reason these things are regulated is because they are fundamentally limited by and tied to land property/ownership laws and there is no way to efficiently reach a consensus without violating them.

IT infrastructure has nothing in common with this aside from ISP.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by takno on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:06AM (#12651475)
They are mainly regulated because they naturally form into monopolies, just like the large internet services.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by dec0dedab0de on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:13AM (#12651761)
Large internet services do not form natural monopoplies. Amazon has New egg, ebay, walmart, plus a million new ones trying to overthrow them. The local cable company only has the local Phone company.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by Certhas on Saturday October 08, 2016 @03:14AM (#12666009)
For Amazon this might just about be true, however, there are strong platform effects. Amazon is growing faster than the market. There is a fairly obvious argument to make for why its a natural monopoly: If its the first place buyers go to look for stuff, it's the first place sellers go for stuff. If it's the place where all the sellers are, it's the place buyers go to look first.

Really, given that this is a market that is growing double digits by year, the amount by which amazon dominates it is shocking.

And that is in a market that is still growing rapidly. For Facebook/Whatsapp this is even more obviously not true. Facebook even failed to leverage its social network monopoly to establish its messenger against insurgents, simply because they were a bit late.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by glogla on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:07AM (#12651479)
That might look the way in theory, but it is not so in practice. There will never be another Google, or another Facebook, or another Amazon - efficiency based on scale and network effect mean they are entrenched as monopolies for ever, too big to fail.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by jtc331 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:05AM (#12651720)
Which is why Facebook replaced MySpace and Google replaced Yahoo and Altavista and so on.

The idea that economies of scale make it impossible for a company to never face competition is ridiculous. The only thing that can do that is govenment protectionism.

Along with economies of scale is the opposite effect: the inefficiency of bureaucracy and having competing interests between business units.

Being large isn't the magical unicorn you think.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by rubber_duck on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:56AM (#12652005)
Ten years ago you could be telling the same story about Yahoo and Microsoft and look at them now.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by Certhas on Saturday October 08, 2016 @03:01AM (#12665984)
Yahoo was in a completely nascent unsettled market, and Microsoft didn't go anywhere. Microsofts net revenue and net income are large than Alphabets/Googles.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by sametmax on Thursday October 06, 2016 @02:10AM (#12650557)
Except apple is not society. It is not democracy. It's a for profit company, and can do whatever it wants. It is in no way entitled to be fair.

If you don't want it to behave this way, as a consumer or developer, you just have to choose to not deal with it. But you don't want to, because it makes you money and makes you life more comfortable in some way.

What it means is that you value money/confort more than been respected by this company. Accept this is what you choose and don't bitch about it, this is dishonest. You can't have it both way.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by bambax on Thursday October 06, 2016 @02:53AM (#12650688)
Society can decide what behavior is allowed and what isn't. Just because a company is a company doesn't mean it's out of reach of judicial rules.

A company can't dump chemicals in any river without oversight; it could be compelled to accept an appeals process when terminating a contract with a developer.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by briandear on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:53AM (#12651979)
These aren't even in the same league of similarity. Dumping chemicals harms society -- even those who are not participating in a particular market. Apple dumping a dev? Not even remotely close. A company should have the right to terminate a business arrangement provided the terms of the contract governing such an arrangement are upheld.

Imagine it this way: you are a contract developer, should you have no right to terminate a contract with a client under the terms of the agreement? Almost every contract I'be ever signed as a developer has some form of "either party can terminate this agree with <some days> notice."

From what I am reading here, we want to hold Apple to different rules than the ones we ourselves routinely follow?

I get it: Apple should give the guy an explanation. However making laws to require it? That's absurd. Should there be a law that when a girl (or guy) doesn't accept a dinner invitation that they provide a valid reason? That's really what this comes down to. And no, Apple isn't a monopoly. This company can still sell their products, just not at that particular store.

I feel bad for the situation, but extending government power into private business relationships is a bad idea. Contract law already covers this.

Society isn't harmed by this company not being able to sell on the App Store. This isn't dumping chemicals into rivers or denying service based on skin color.

If the developer was wronged, he could file a lawsuit. However given that the contracts governing the relationship were known in advance, the situation is just the realization of the risks inherent in doing business.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by sametmax on Thursday October 06, 2016 @09:48AM (#12652386)
> the situation is just the realization of the risks inherent in doing business.

Precisely. You signed the contract. You could have not done so, but you wanted the money. And you wanted it to come from this source, because this source fits some of your needs. So you decided it was worth putting your life into their hands, and sometime, you loose. It sucks, but you are half responsible.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by sametmax on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:34AM (#12651208)
But what apple is doing is not currently illegal. Just highly disrespectful.

Now we can act as a society to make it illegal, but this won't happen.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by fauigerzigerk on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:10AM (#12651488)
>Now we can act as a society to make it illegal, but this won't happen.

Certainly not if everyone heeds your advice to "Accept this is what you choose and don't bitch about it". Bitching about stuff is a necessary part of the democratic process.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by sametmax on Thursday October 06, 2016 @09:42AM (#12652336)
No, debating, finding solution and acting is part of the democratic process. Bitching is just acting like the victim you aren't, since it's just the consequence of your choices. There will always be apple like players. Either you do something about it, or you don't.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by fauigerzigerk on Thursday October 06, 2016 @10:36AM (#12652775)
"Bitching" is just your arbitrary choice of words for something that is a completely normal part of debating the issue.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by briandear on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:59AM (#12652028)
Making this illegal is a dangerous slippery slope. It could end up like France where firing an employee can be a multi year process and the result-- a shortage of permanent contract employment because employers fear being stuck with an employee forever.

Making this illegal would result in an arduous approval process just to join a marketplace. Additionally it could result in bad actors being unable to be expelled from a market while the legal process unfolds. That could result in a net loss to consumers. Imagine a malware developer -- Apple can't evict them quickly because they'd have to perform extra legal investigation so they wouldn't get in trouble for acting too quickly.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by sametmax on Thursday October 06, 2016 @09:44AM (#12652361)
What you are saying is "to avoid making it inconvenient for apple, we shall let them the right do juge people guilty unless proven innocent, and not give any feedback about it".

There is a reason we don't accept that for our law system. We currently accept that from companies, and I don't think it's a good idea.

But don't get me wrong. I don't think going legal is the right way to go. I think either you accept it, and enjoy the benefits of playing with apple and stop complaining, or you don't accept it, complain AND follow the complaining with action such as putting your business elsewhere.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by CamperBob2 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @06:09AM (#12651304)
Any unavoidable monopoly is indistinguishable from a government. Whether Apple has reached that point is obviously debatable -- I think most people would say 'No.' But still: their goal is to be the only game in town, and if they reach that goal, we will have to change the rules.

When a corporation behaves this way, it needs to hurt.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by gumby on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:29PM (#12649438)
How should the law define "reasonable explanation?" In the US that kind of thing is litigated, which small companies can't afford.

Such protections exist for employees, involve lots of lawyers and complexity, and sometimes screw companies and sometimes screw employees and sometimes screw both (though they do also fill an important need). But the economic cost of compliance and management of these rules is quite high, and there are a lot more employees than software developers by several orders of magnitude.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by ytpete on Thursday October 06, 2016 @09:32PM (#12657527)
A law could be written so it only applies to larger companies. Those companies both have greater leverage/power over consumers and small businesses (making the regulation more important), and have more resources to handle the overhead. I believe some existing regulations in the US already have an annual revenue threshold before they kick in.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by andrei_says_ on Thursday October 06, 2016 @01:24AM (#12650417)
I also see the need for a company to be able to close an account for truly fraudulent activity and not disclose how they caught the misconduct.

I'm in no way implying that such activity happened in this case, just that the policy makes sense.

An appeal process should be in place though.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by Cthulhu_ on Thursday October 06, 2016 @01:57AM (#12650513)
They don't need to disclose how they caught it, just what said misconduct was - going "yeah we're closing your account due to misconduct" is like fining someone for no reason. It'd be a violation of human rights if that happened, and in this particular case, it's potentially ruining someone financially.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by maccard on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:54AM (#12651676)
It's not really - it's more akin to closing someone's bank account and saying "we're closing your account for misconduct" which does happen.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by andrei_says_ on Thursday October 06, 2016 @06:20PM (#12656604)
Not disclosing the details for the reason could prevent a malicious actor to learn and improve their strategies.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by waterphone on Thursday October 06, 2016 @10:09AM (#12652546)
Except false positives always happen, and when you have such a policy, innocent people are caught in the middle and face an accusation of vaguely defined misconduct with no details to use to try and appeal the incorrect accusation, because they don't even know what they're being accused of.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by petre on Thursday October 06, 2016 @03:39AM (#12650823)
> You can't put one in jail without telling why

Yes you can (if you're Goldman & Sachs). It's called "contempt of the court". See the Martin Armstrong case. There are others.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by enraged_camel on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:35PM (#12649195)
>>It should be prohibited for companies to halt service someone without providing a reasonable explanation.

What a terrible idea.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by del82 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:10PM (#12649347)
It's already required in some industries, e.g. those that extend credit.

https://consumercomplianceoutlook.org/2013/second-quarter/ad...

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by 13of40 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:50PM (#12649256)
Is it? I don't think the idea is that they can't stop service for whatever reason, but that they have to provide a reason. On the other hand, I guess it doesn't have any teeth if they can just say, "Because you smell funny plus it's Tuesday..."
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by chii on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:06PM (#12649328)
What about price discrimination? Should that be legal or illegal?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by 13of40 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:34PM (#12649473)
Do you mean the kind where my wedding cake costs twice as much because I'm gay or the kind where my car insurance costs twice as much because I'm a serial car wrecker?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by tremon on Thursday October 06, 2016 @06:00AM (#12651276)
What about the case where your car insurance costs twice as much because some of your neighbours are serial car wreckers?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by WhtWsThtAgn on Thursday October 06, 2016 @11:26PM (#12657934)
Uhm, that's EXACTLY how insurance policies are calculated..

Local insurance claims gears the local premiums, obviously.

If you live in the city with the worst drivers in the country, your premiums will be high.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:39PM (#12649502)
well depending on the service you are not allowed to halt that service for various reasons - for example you can't halt or refuse to provide service in just about anything for reasons of race in countries whose legal systems I am familiar with, therefore there is some requirement to provide a reasonable explanation for refusal of service in almost any business - it just so happens that an app store type business seems different enough that it does not have to provide the same level of explanation.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by icebraining on Thursday October 06, 2016 @04:41AM (#12651008)
They did provide a reason - fraudulent conduct. Are other business required to provide more detail?
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by bryanrasmussen on Thursday October 06, 2016 @04:57AM (#12651056)
No, I was replying specifically to the parent comment that said it was a terrible idea that a reasonable explanation be provided. Although, depending on the relevant legal system, just specifying fraudulent conduct without providing a lot more detail would be in itself problematic.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by fattire on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:15PM (#12648801)
Take this question for what it is-- I'm not blaming the victim here-- but how much responsibility do small and nameless developers bear for making a deal with the devil to begin with? Don't they go into this knowing that Apple can at any time capriciously cut them off from the sole means of distribution of their product at will?

I get that there is money to be made on the iOS app store-- but why is there a willingness to set up shop in a town where if one of the local officials doesn't like you-- for any reason-- he or she can effectively confiscate your hard-made product so you can't sell it anywhere else and kick you outside the walls?

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by Rotten194 on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:30PM (#12648878)
You act like there's a choice -- customers get apps through the app store, so that's where developers have to be if they want to eat.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by fattire on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:48PM (#12648979)
The choice is that if you're going to develop software for sale to the public, you can choose to develop software for sale in another market which is not so restrictive and oppressive. Other platforms and marketplaces exist, and money can be made there. To contemplate the actual possibility of sweating for years building a business, slaving over software, creating marketing campaigns, and a brand and fighting to beat out the competition, all while knowing that at any point for any reason Apple may decide to pull the plug and leave me with absolutely nothing-- no sellable product and no other avenue to sell it-- sounds like a pretty obvious choice: Don't ever get in business under circumstances like that unless there truly is no other choice.

Stories like this from Dash (and others) is a real-living and breathing worst-case scenario... it makes the choice to not participate in this marketplace all the more obvious to me.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by jomamaxx on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:28PM (#12649430)
"The choice is that if you're going to develop software for sale to the public, you can choose to develop software for sale in another market which is not so restrictive and oppressive."

The smartphone 'market' is an oligarchy, ergo, it's not really a free market, and those kinds of principled positions just don't hold.

It's pretty reasonable to argue that Apple's arbitrary control of the AppStore is an anti-competitive practice.

If the market were commoditized, like, the choice you have for where you want to 'eat lunch' or 'buy a car' - it would be different.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by qyv on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:51PM (#12649262)
Just goes to show that selling App's in a walled ecosystem is NOT the exact same as building a software business. You lose so much control over your product, you essentially become commission-only contract software developers. Publishers have been pushing for this kind of control for a long time.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by 7Z7 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:57AM (#12651691)
You trade that loss of control for the convenience of not having to distribute/host/manage money or returns/etc.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by Steko on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:02PM (#12649310)
People work and go into business and otherwise partner with people who can capriciously screw them over all the time, that's how businesses work. You can put a certain amount of things in contracts and internal procedures but ultimately you need to trust your partners/boss/employees not to screw you over. The App Store is no different and many people build their businesses around it because it is a huge market and Apple has built up a lot of trust that mistakes (presumably like this) are corrected and AFAIK they do not go around wantonly destroying people's businesses.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by habitue on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:49PM (#12648986)
Can we drop the whole "need to eat" language when talking about software development? We're talking about people with abundant opportunity to make tons of money. Tugging on the heartstrings with "they need to eat" or "feed their families" is preposterously over the top rhetoric.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by paulddraper on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:55PM (#12649277)
I can't speak for you, but my family needs to eat.

Can I choose my opportunities? To some extent.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by habitue on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:29PM (#12649441)
Yes of course, your family needs to eat and you need to eat. If you're most concerned with just making enough money to eat, you have a huge number of jobs available. If your app's failure vs. success is the difference between eating and not eating, you've made that decision consciously, knowing that you (necessarily) have the skills to get other jobs without such dire consequences.

The point I was making is that this rhetorical device of "I need to eat" is used way too often as a euphemism for "I want to make a lot of money". It's used that way because the former statement elicits sympathy and the latter statement attracts derision.

In the context of the original comment, the "need to eat" phrase was used in the context of an app developer. You don't create an app on the app store as a last ditch attempt to feed your family. You do it to make money, and you do it knowing the risk that it won't be successful and you won't make any money. Apple's inscrutable opaque approval process is another annoying risk on top of that, but whether you're going to eat shouldn't be a part of the equation here.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by tempestn on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @11:23PM (#12650006)
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by logfromblammo on Thursday October 06, 2016 @01:42PM (#12654431)
I was going to say something clever and snarky here, but then I realized that I am an "at will" employee for a single company that could ruin me financially with one arbitrary decision, and they would have no obligation whatsoever to justify it to me in any way.

At least Apple only takes ~1/3 of the value of the work you put into in the App Store.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by KirinDave on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:31PM (#12649179)
It is not the case that all developers have easy access to abundant income. It is at least as wrong to assume that is true as to assume that they are living hand to mouth.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by statictype on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @11:33PM (#12650051)
For those developers, it makes even less sense to pony up for a Macbook and an Apple Developer license and spend all their time on an app that's going into someone else's environment - especially someone who has a history of treating developers on their platform as second-class citizens.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by KirinDave on Thursday October 06, 2016 @10:44AM (#12652847)
They're told they'll make money. That is not only Apple's rhetoric but the press's.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by oldmanjay on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:34PM (#12649472)
It is fairly easy to assume that there are other routes to food than publishing apps in Apple's App Store. No one is guaranteed abundant income in general, never mind via some third-party business.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by Kadin on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @10:26PM (#12649754)
If a particular practice is acceptable for Apple, then it is presumptively okay for other software companies to do, too. And conversely, if everyone in the market for software-development labor wouldn't be allowed to do something, we shouldn't allow Apple to do it, either.

If a particular bit of conduct would be a poor idea if everyone were to do it, that's a pretty good idea it shouldn't be allowed at all.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by KirinDave on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @09:37PM (#12649487)
Sorry, I don't understand how your conversation is relevant to the conversation.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by c3d on Thursday October 06, 2016 @01:31AM (#12650432)
Yes, developers have multiple opportunities, but often they don't choose what actually works. I did many things over my career, the only one that was truly successful financially was in a closed, proprietary environment. My open-source projects are all semi-failures. So where I spend my time is not my choice, it's my customers'.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by intrasight on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @08:04PM (#12649071)
There is a choice - and it is the right choice. Just make your software browser-based.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by hellofunk on Thursday October 06, 2016 @02:36AM (#12650638)
That's not a choice. Browser technology is still a long way from native performance.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by pyre on Thursday October 06, 2016 @03:06AM (#12650725)
So much this. There are also weird quirks to deal with when dealing with browsers vs. native. On iOS, native scrolling 'just works,' but within our app (Cordova-based) it took a bunch of hand-holding to make it a decent experience.'

One example, on iOS WebKit if you flick to scroll, and then "click" (touch) on the screen while the scroll animation is still running, the click event will report a position on the webpage that was as if the scroll had never happened (e.g. you had clicked on the same place on the screen without having scrolled in the first place).

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by fbender on Thursday October 06, 2016 @04:38AM (#12651001)
That is Apple's fault, not the web's or browsers' in general.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by hellofunk on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:13AM (#12651119)
Well, then all browser vendors are to blame, because the experience with Apple browsers is no better or worse than any other browser for serious web-based apps.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by intrasight on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:46AM (#12651929)
That may be true for 3D games. But for things like Dash, a documentation standard, I doubt it matters.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by hellofunk on Thursday October 06, 2016 @09:24AM (#12652197)
It's true for a lot of applications other than gaming.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by sverasch on Friday October 07, 2016 @12:45PM (#12662027)
The whole point of Dash was to make documentation offline.
Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by dj-wonk on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @07:44PM (#12648958)
When people say "there is no choice" it usually means there is a choice. A better way to have the discussion is to avoid the binary framing and talk about the tradeoffs.

Here is one key tradeoff I see: the App Store brings more visibility in exchange for a cost. This situation accentuates another downside: plug-pulling for intentional or unintentional reasons.

FWIW, I use plenty of apps not on the app store.

Re:Apple Has Removed Dash from the App Store by pkamb on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:14PM (#12662713)
"If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps."