A FeliCa based iPhone? I will buy it instantly.

For a long time Android phones had the lead when it comes to paying digitally with phones in Japan and Korea. Their open NFC API allows for all sort of cool things like reading the balance of your card.

Japan has FeliCa more or less everywhere. Close to all IC cards are based around it and even in the time before smartphones, people in Japan were already able to pay with their feature phones which featured FeliCa chips. Nowadays you still need a special Android phone that supports it, though lately you can also get Samsung ones.

In Korea there are luckily close to no FeliCa terminals but still an iPhone is useless.

Providers here in Japan even started selling "NFC cases" that you put your iPhone in which then connects via bluetooth with the phone -- just so you can pay with your phone.

Bringing this in will be a huge deal. I know a lot of people who pick Android purely because they can pay with it. There are even a lot of people who have 2 phones, one iPhone that is their main phone and one purely for paying digitally.

> There are even a lot of people who have 2 phones, one iPhone that is their main phone and one purely for paying digitally.

Why not just carry the iPhone and a traditional card?

It's so disappointing that apple locks away the NFC chip. NFC payments are widespread in Europe but the fees are so low that Apple Pay needs to make special deals with banks and they don't care largely to share a tiny share with apple who does not add anything.

I would love if my bank just had a way to provide their own wallet solution on iOS but currently there is no way :(

My best guess is that the NFC chip is locked for security and that it's highly linked to the secure enclave. Maybe it's discussed in the iOS Security document? I haven't checked.

Apple has a habit of introducing something very locked down and slowly adding features and opening up. We've been seeing this particularly in extensions recently and we've finally got some Siri support, if only in specific domains.

That's what apple claims[1]:

"Providing simple access to the NFC antenna by banking applications would fundamentally diminish the high level of security Apple aims to have on our devices"

[1] http://fortune.com/2016/08/11/apple-pay-tech-banks-security/

I do not understand what the attack vector here would be. Can someone elaborate?

You could make an app that pretends to be a payment terminal so you hold your phone near someone else's and trick them into paying you as they try to unlock their phone with TouchID.

Or (and this seems REALLY probable) people make apps to 'help' you pay or track you spending and pay/etc. But they now have very sensitive banking data so that's insecure.

How about CurrenC or Walmart or some other company makes their own NFC payment thing on a different standard that isn't compatible with standard terminals. Now anyone who uses that new payment system is vulnerable to any bugs in that implementation as opposed to a very well tested system like the current NFC stuff (which I'm sure has shortcomings, but at least is well understood).

> You could make an app that pretends to be a payment terminal so you hold your phone near someone else's and trick them into paying you as they try to unlock their phone with TouchID.

So? You can already do that. You can put an NFC shell around your phone which connects with bluetooth and that is being done already. You can touch an Android phone or anything else. Same story.

You can't do that because you have to buy extra hardware. All of a sudden everything you need would be built in. That makes it WAY more practical of an attack. All of a sudden ANY phone can be used.

London bypassed this and you just tag on/off with your standard contactless payment card, it only bills you once a day at the end.

Used it last week with Apple Pay on my Phone, worked great!

Works well on Android pay on London also

> Used it last week with Apple Pay on my Phone, worked great!

Do be aware that if your phone battery runs out you may have to pay a penalty fare.

Also be aware that the hash for each ApplePay instance of the same card is unique, so you have to use the same device when tapping out that you did when tapping in (or all day in order to hit the cap).

It's also worth priming your device (double tap home button from lock screen) and authenticating before you reach the gate. You don't want to hold up the 50 stressed commuters behind you fiddling with your phone.

Though I often do it anyway, I actually find that the priming thing is troublesome for me, I often end up unlocking my phone by accident and spending much more time trying to fix that. Better to just put it up to the reader with your finger over the sensor, it automatically brings the payment screen up and then insta-authorises with the fingerprint. (the payment screen activates if it detects an NFC terminal)

So, realistically, what value does paying with your phone add over an Oyster or contactless card?

Sure, you might claim that I'm more likely to forget my Oyster than my phone, but I'm also much less likely to run out of power on the Oyster.

For me it was a few things:

- I normally have my phone in my hand anyway. - My phone is in a pocket by it's self, so there is less risk of pulling out keys, coins, or notes along with my wallet. - I have many contact-less cards, so would have to pull the right one out of my wallet. - I would then have to put everything back, and go back to getting out my phone. - I get an apple pay notification ever evening when my card is charged, so I can easily tell if I have been over charged and get a refund.

> what value does paying with your phone add over an Oyster

Phones and contactless payments actually do the fare-capping calculations slightly differently - if you do a "commute into London, then around London a bunch, then back" travel pattern, it can purchase a virtual central-London travelcard in the middle of the day, and adjust the commute-in payment retroactively. If you want that fare treatment with Oyster then you need to get the travelcard option loaded on it in advance.

> or contactless

modestly better security

Probably none

This "contactless phone payment" seems more like a gimmick than anything else

actually it makes total sense for foreign travelers, who can immediately travel without finding a suitable location to purchase an Oyster card (for 5GBP), worrying about how much balance to put on it (being a tourist, I had no idea) and then waiting in line for over 30 minutes to return it (and get whatever was remaining as a refund) when I was done.

I actually had to do all of these things, because the first set of machines I ran into (and then used to purchase an Oyster card) didn't have signs about being able to use contactless now.. all of those signs were around the corner :-)

London is lucky enough to (at least for the underground) allow cash or EFT fares at the stations, in some hostile cities like Sydney you cannot catch a bus without a pre-purchased multi rider card which you can only buy from certain outlets.. you can not pay cash on board. Combining the inefficiencies of avoiding cash on rides with the global standard of contact less payments makes total sense to me

Might be easier for tourists yes, but I just get the Oyster card last time I was there

I have at least eight cards of unknown value from different times I've been to Atlanta, and had to leave the airport on the train, which requires you to buy a transit card. Somehow I never remember this is a thing.

A phone replaces all this just like FiveStars replaced carrying point cards.

If you use the underground in central london on a weekday there's a fair chance you'll be paying the maximum fare anyway

The penalty "maximum fare" doesn't count towards the fare cap so you will end up paying the maximum fare twice.

It looks like FeliCa is based on/compatible with NFC (on a physical/radio level).

Is this something Apple could conceivably add into an iOS point release? Or is the chip the controls the NFC in the iPhone probably hardcoded to what it does now and not capable of being adapted (like a software radio wood) to a different protocol?

Even if the phone could do it with a software update, is this one of those things where that wouldn't be allowed because their implementation probably wouldn't match the required security specs (Wikipedia seems to say that there is some special crypto on the cards which they may not want in software).

Finally. It's rather annoying taking out my Pasmo to get through the subway barriers when I can see Android users going through with a tap.

Also, the article mentions mass transit navigation is coming for Maps. If that happens I'll get rid of Google Maps, which is almost useless as it now forces me to log in before doing anything useful.

> as it now forces me to log in before doing anything useful.

It's still useful without logging in, searches and directions still work fine, they just have a big ugly prompt telling you to log-in. Just ignore it. The main functional things missing are stars, offline, and the personalized suggestion things that appear when you tap search boxes (which regrettably includes recent search history, probably the biggest thing missing from the not-signed-in experience).

(disclaimer etc: I work on google maps for iOS)

> It's still useful without logging in, searches and directions still work fine

Interesting, this was the problem I was having, directions and/or directions from search results weren't working if I wasn't logged in. I just tried again and there's no problem, as you said.

> (which regrettably includes recent search history, probably the biggest thing missing from the not-signed-in experience)

You work on it, why not change that? :)

Ever tried screaming into a deep dark well?

Why aren't you logged in and how is that different than apple maps? Doesn't apple maps support you leave pins? Aren't those pins synced to your iCloud account? How is that different? Do you use your iPhone without being logged into apple?

Why are you taking out your Pasmo card instead of leaving it in your wallet?

My wallet was pretty fat and I had no problems tapping in and out with the card in my closed wallet. My phone had the ability to use Pasmo but I felt a lot safer banging my wallet against the gate every day instead of banging my phone against it.

Sorry, I wasn't that clear. I meant taking it out of my pocket. I have a card case for it as I don't like carrying around a fat wallet.

My phone is usually already in my hand :)

Which Android phones support the IC Card system? I know my Nexus 5X only supports NFC.

I don't know. Here's a page that shows Suica support for JR; I have no idea if the subway companies use the same. I would generally think it would be Japanese handset manufacturers, so Sony, Sharp, etc.

https://www.jreast.co.jp/mobilesuica/whats/models.html

IC cards for trains had a grand unification a few years back; Suica used to work only on JR but now works on subway etc. (Progress FTW!)

Suica is compatible with almost everything else.

Japanese IC card compatibility diagram: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ICCard_Connection_en...

Japan is great at some things. It's been common since about 2007 to pay for commuter trains, subway and buses by tapping your phone or contactless card. Meanwhile here in the UK, buses are still cash only (outside London) and they grumble if you don't have exact change for £3.70 or something.

That may be true in some parts, but not everywhere.

Nottingham, for instance, has had contactless cards for transport for years.

There's an array of confusing different options (some cards will work only on City buses, some will work on any bus but not the tram, some will charge extra when you use the tram, but others won't, their ranges cover different parts of Nottingham etc).

But once you've got your head around that, it works fine.

In other news, it will take NYC five years to implement tap and pay MetroCards.

The MTA is much more than 5 years behind on just about everything else, and MetroCards are one of the least annoying things about the subway I think, so I'm skeptical we'll see it anywhere near that soon.

NYC used to have tap payments for Citibank customers. It was a pilot about 5 or more years ago, IIRC. I used it until they took it away.

Lololol. It will take them 5 years to vote it, 5 years to decide which union will implement it, and 5 years for the union to actually do it.

I wish this comes to NYC subways. I also wish NYC upgrades their subways. They are getting run down by the years and decades.

IIRC, Samsung Pay is planning to add support for transit cards. Theoretically it would be possible to use something like your Clipper card to pay for a BART ride through your phone. (http://i.imgur.com/JXdsxcr.jpg)

Why not just make an iPhone case that has a carve-out for the payment card? That way you can use your payment card and not need your phone, too (like going outdoors, to the beach, etc).

I ask because I've already seen iPhone cases like this in Japan. I use one with my Clipper card.

>Why not just make an iPhone case that has a carve-out for the payment card?

I too have seen this kind of product in Japan. The downside is that the case gets thick, the design is limited, and it doesn't look cool. As a former user for using Suica app of feature phones, the case product is apparently not optimal.

IMO users who put their phones in their pockets would gain the most benefit (mostly men I think). Women, especially in Japan, generally wear clothes that have no pockets and the phones are inside the handbags, which will have less benefit. It is not much different taking the card case or a phone from your handbag.

I have seen a brand handbag that has an inner pocket in the bottom to hold a Suica card. To use it, you just put the handbag on top of the ticket gate. This kind of product looks more suited to women in Japan.

one thing I've noticed is that Japanese people have no problem with bulky phone cases. I personally hate them, but almost everyone here uses the kind with a flip cover card holder. Also, I saw the handbag you refer to yesterday and thought it was a clever solution.

The advantages of ApplePay are the authentication (security/privacy) and support for AppleWatch.

It's also trivial to cancel your virtual if your phone/watch is stolen, as it's just a unique hash. You can then continue to use your physical card, or re-register it.

This won't use Apple Pay. Also, all of the things you listed seem like a pain just to save $40 worth of transit money.

So does that mean that each city system will have to beg Apple to implement their system instead of having an API so cities / countries can implement payments themselves? :(

Chicago accepts plain old Apple Pay. It goes directly to your credit card and doesn't give a discount for transfers though. It can't, because the credentials are intentionally not persistent.

Ahem...: "FINALLY."

(As an aside, I've spent years with a Pasmo train card (and required shielding sheet) duct-taped to the the back of my stupid iphone...)