News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by cheald on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @02:29PM (#12346194)
This is on the money. Niantic made it harder and more frustrating to play their game, and people stopped playing it. They have utterly failed to understand what their playerbase wants, and people are falling off.

The maps really drove it into overdrive, especially with the presence of "nests", because it allowed people to figure out where they needed to be, and would then congregate there. By taking out the maps, Niantic has turned their scavenger hunt into a scratch-off lotto ticket - don't bother trying to plan or play with any strategy, just wander around aimlessly until your phone buzzes. Who wants to do that?

It's a shame, because at its core there is a compelling scavenger hunt that generated a truly unique social phenomenon, and it's very sad to see Niantic just piss that away. The game just isn't worth putting any effort into - they broke the effort-reward cycle.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by derefr on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @05:19PM (#12347755)
> By taking out the maps, Niantic has turned their scavenger hunt into a scratch-off lotto ticket ... they broke the effort-reward cycle

You're phrasing this almost as if Niantic wanted there to be third-party mapping apps in the first place, and then changed its mind.

The game Niantic released doesn't have mapping, and didn't intend to have an open API. This can be read as an implicit statement that the game design that Niantic thought people would enjoy playing, doesn't involve knowing where pokemon are.

Presuming there was at least one actual game designer involved in creating the game, there's likely already some sort of effort-reward cycle built into the game that doesn't involve mapping. It might not be one you like playing, but that probably means that you were not the audience Niantic designed (and playability-tested) the game for.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by maxsilver on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @09:02PM (#12348955)
> there's likely already some sort of effort-reward cycle built into the game that doesn't involve mapping.

You would think that, but there really isn't. It's easier to see if you load up the game for yourself.

Sure, it's true that Niantic didn't plan or intend for usable maps to exist. But it's also true that the game is effectively unplayable without the maps.

The real winner in this whole situation is Nintendo. Niantic has effectively given their entire userbase over to Nintendo -- and even though Nintendo's doing very little to attract or keep them, they'll probably still get some extra 3DS + game sales as a result.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by chimeracoder on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @10:37PM (#12349299)
> The real winner in this whole situation is Nintendo. Niantic has effectively given their entire userbase over to Nintendo -- and even though Nintendo's doing very little to attract or keep them, they'll probably still get some extra 3DS + game sales as a result.

I don't understand how that follows. How did Niantic give any of its userbase over to Nintendo? Pokemon Go does very little to advance the Nintendo games - there's literally zero upsell involved (or even any cross-advertising).

You could say that the Pokemon Go brand might sell some extra copies of Sun & Moon in November, but I'd argue that the effect runs mostly in the other direction. Pokemon Go was successful because of Nintendo's Pokemon brand. And to at least a degree, that capital is finite (people's appetite for Pokemon-related games is a finite resource, and it's possible that overexposure to Pokemon Go could make them less excited about the upcoming 3DS games).

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by SerLava on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @12:11AM (#12349626)
There have been a lot of Pokemon core game sales and 3DS sales. That's what he's talking about. People are interested in the original games again.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by maxsilver on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @04:18PM (#12354920)
> How did Niantic give any of its userbase over to Nintendo?

Niantic's handling of Pokemon Go is driving demand for Pokemon, but not fulfilling it. And some of that unfulfilled demand is going to Nintendo, whose product does deliver a Pokemon experience, and is already sitting in thousands of stores all across America today.

"Sales of Pokémon X and Y, which were first released in October 2013, were up a huge 200 percent compared to their sales in July of last year." -- https://techcrunch.com/2016/08/18/nintendo-3ds-sales-up-80-y...

--------

> Pokemon Go does very little to advance the Nintendo games - there's literally zero upsell involved (or even any cross-advertising).

It doesn't have to advertise Nintendo's products, it only has to advertise the brand.

Coca-Cola ads drive demand and sales for Coke, even though they rarely upsell the actual product. Coke advertisements can drive sales without explicitly saying "12 packs are $3.99 at your local Wal*Mart".

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by JeremyBanks on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @05:36PM (#12347896)
The game didn't have maps, but it did have the "footprints" features that would let you zero-in on nearby Pokemon. That's been broken almost since release, and a general replacement still hadn't shipped the last time I checked. The maps were a hack to deal with a broken game, and they eliminated them before addressing the root motivation.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by seangrogg on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @06:48PM (#12348399)
The breaking of the feature was seemingly a response to try and break maps to begin with - the data used in the footprints is what the mapping applications used (along with millions of accounts giving off false coordinates) to triangulate 'mon.

The root motivation of the bug was the stressing of the servers by "headless" accounts that existed solely to make mapping software possible. It's unfortunate that they chose to try and combat that activity rather than just understand it's what people wanted and make it less taxing on their server (make a mapping endpoint on an alternate server).

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by jaimex2 on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @09:04PM (#12348963)
They removed footprints to reduce server load and increase stability. It had nothing to do with stopping mapping software.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by seangrogg on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @04:01PM (#12354794)
They broke footprints (always showing 3 footprints regardless of actual distance) shortly after PokeVision hit r/thesilphroad.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by foota on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @05:24PM (#12347804)
That's unfortunate for them, because while they may not have been the users they wanted (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12306284) there were literally millions of them.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by mahranch on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @08:06PM (#12348757)
> almost as if Niantic wanted there to be third-party mapping apps in the first place, and then changed its mind.

Didn't they though? At the very beginning of the game, you had footprints you could track and use to "hunt" down nearby pokemon. They took it out because it was hurting their servers. Maps allowed similar hunting. I would say that Niantic did in fact, change its mind.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by AndroidTim on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @08:22PM (#12348827)
I see what you mean but that's partially true but not entirely correct. Yes maps were not part of the original design but neither was the current system. You see The beta users had a very good indication where Pokemon were. In fact they had a superior system to even the 3 step tracking. They had the distance away from a Pokemon displayed in METRES! That would have been amazing. So the audience Niantic designed and "playability tested" didn't have the piece of crap tracking we have today. Who needs a map if u got descent tracking. Dude WAKE UP from your delusion it had nothing to do with design and targeted audience. It was all about saving BAND WIDTH.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by AOsborn on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @02:06AM (#12350038)
I agree with your point, but this isn't the forum for a post with a tone like that.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by AndroidTim on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @06:38AM (#12351004)
Your right-apologies The "wake up delusion" comment was not necessary. Does this forum have an edit function?
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by SmirkingRevenge on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @12:14AM (#12349637)
They do seem to have a thing against unsanctioned map apps/enhancements. It was true in Ingress as well. I always assumed it was because they wanted to distance themselves from anything that could be construed as enabling some kind of stalking behavior - or at least construed as "too much" stalker-enabling (Ingress is already pretty stalker-enabling without map enhancements - but the map enhancements definitely make it many times more effective).

If that was at all a reason for their reticence to create capable ingress mapping tools, it must be doubly so for PGO - a game that will attract many more minor age children than Ingress.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by beedogs on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @12:27AM (#12349672)
> but that probably means that you were not the audience Niantic designed (and playability-tested) the game for.

And that's entirely the developer's fault, not the players'.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by derefr on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @03:27PM (#12354573)
It's an artist's fault when someone they didn't make their art for, doesn't like their art?

I mean, I see what you're saying in the "the customer is always right" sense—it's Niantic's problem to solve if the majority of people playing their game want something other than their game.

But suppose Niantic don't care about making billions of dollars from an audience of "everyone", but only intended the game to be interesting to, say, 8-to-14 year olds with lots of time to kill wandering around in their small towns not finding much of anything. I don't think it's valid to criticize Niantic that another audience glommed onto the game that isn't that audience, and then is demanding an experience Niantic didn't intend.

A comparison: there are these cartoons in Japan about little girls being cute. They are marketed to little girls, who are intended to identify with the characters. But for some reason, a lot of grown men watch these shows, although nobody ever marketed the show to them. As you might guess, the grown men want different things from the shows than the intended audience does. And the grown men have a lot more money. But that doesn't mean that the show should change, does it?

Also remember, Pokemon Go is a franchise license. It was likely intended, in part, as a loss-leader marketing experiment for Nintendo to revive the Pokemon brand. Franchise licensees, before anything else, have to serve as good ambassadors for their franchise. Even if that means not making money. To do otherwise is to possibly get your license revoked, and for these franchise-licensed works, the licensed IP is usually 99% of the reason people (both in and out of the intended audience) are paying any attention. Making Pokemon's intended audience want to buy more Pokemon games, isn't necessarily more important a concern to Niantic's businesspeople than making a billion dollars from IAPs is; but it is certainly a more life-or-death concern. It's something that can't be traded away even for great benefit, like regulatory-compliance in a bank, or safety concern in an engineering project.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by nathankleyn on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @02:53PM (#12346422)
It's particularly aggravating playing it in a large city (for us London) where, without the maps as a guide, you're stuck wasting balls on common Pokémon incessantly because that's the only thing around.

Add to that the fact that they made it, with a recent update, insanely likely for anything half-decent to simply run or be impossible to catch, and you have a recipe for declining interest in playing and paying to be bored.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by calsy on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @05:41PM (#12347939)
But you are supposed to catch common pokemon, that's the quickest way to level up.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by bskap on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @06:23PM (#12348270)
Assuming your goal is to level up. A lot of people were playing for the collection aspect.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by Thriptic on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @12:33AM (#12349692)
I think the game absolutely needs PVP / better gym mechanics and trading to survive. Right now the emphasis is 95% on collecting, which is why people are losing interest.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by vintermann on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @02:58AM (#12350232)
And it wasn't going fast enough for them?

But maybe they didn't want it to go fast. Maybe it was supposed to be unfeasible to get a full set in a reasonable amount of time. This doesn't seem too unlikely if they want to implement trading at some point.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by ethbro on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @08:33PM (#12348872)
True, "Gotta level up" is a far less compelling motto.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by calsy on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @08:55PM (#12348941)
I don't think the motto is the 'foundation' for gameplay. Last I checked pokemon was also about battles.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by calsy on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @08:53PM (#12348933)
Um yes, its called 'evolving' your pokemon. Commons evolve into new high CP pokemon which fill up your pokedex AND give you high XP in the process.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by bskap on Saturday August 27, 2016 @05:52AM (#12371728)
Yes, but there's only one evolution track per pokemon (except Eevee which has 3 in gen 1). The optimal strategy for grinding experience is to catch a million pidgeys and evolve them all into Pidgeottos for the experience and then transfer them because Pidgeot isn't that powerful of a pokemon. The optimal strategy for building the pokedex is to catch enough pidgeys to get a Pidgeot and then you don't need to catch any more pidgeys.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by fphhotchips on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @06:25PM (#12348276)
That's nice and all, but it's not fun.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by calsy on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @08:49PM (#12348918)
It is fun when those common pokemon evolve into high CP Pokemon.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by myrion on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @12:48AM (#12349741)
They don't though. Evolving gives you, in my experience, +100, perhaps +200 CP.

All my 10-50CP Pidgeys don't magically get useful by evolving. Though they do give nice XP.

Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by calsy on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @08:39AM (#12351551)
Yes they do, my most powerful characters are all margikarp, psyduck, eevee, exeggcute evolutions. I have a 990 CP Pidgeot from pidgeys.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by xbmcuser on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @02:07AM (#12350043)
Power them up before evolving them.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by mdrzn on Wednesday August 24, 2016 @11:02AM (#12352520)
Evolving doubles the XP usually.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by Bahamut on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @06:57PM (#12348443)
I found plenty of rare Pokemon walking around while I was visiting London in late July, including a Dragonite.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by shreve on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @04:38PM (#12347385)
I was totally fine wandering around aimlessly until my phone buzzed, but they also took out battery saver mode. I never even found out about the existence of maps until they were banned. Removal of such a benign, yet helpful feature as battery saver mode is what made me quit.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by blahshaw on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @05:12PM (#12347687)
Battery saver mode was added back in recently, FYI. Though it still seems buggy. The app occasionally fails to wake after raising your phone.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by madeofpalk on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @08:27PM (#12348855)
But Pokemon Go got popular before all the third party maps and tools came out.
Re:Pokémon Go loses its luster, sheds more than 10M users by hrrsn on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @08:29PM (#12348862)
Initially, there was half decent tracking available inside the game, which was then killed off. Third party maps filled the void (but was admittedly less fun), which were then killed off again without tracking being replaced. This is entirely on Niantic.