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Re:UK votes to leave EU by thetmkay on Thursday June 23, 2016 @11:58PM (#11966221)
I voted today.

I work in London at a startup with international markets. I believe in the ideal of free movement. I think the EU is a bit of a mess conceptually and mechanically, but in general a step forward for Europe.

This is really the beginning of a very long, tedious and ultimately unsatisfying couple of years of dissatisfaction and instability as we negotiate with the EU and the rest of the world.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by brbsix on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:18AM (#11966365)
In a free market, I find the ideal of free movement very compelling. But how do you reconcile free movement with (quasi-)socialism?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by rayiner on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:21AM (#11966385)
You don't. Freedom of movement is a way to undermine nations building safety nets for their own people.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by conistonwater on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:12AM (#11966750)
It has been known for years that immigrants are net contributors to the British welfare system. (For example http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-ac..., and elsewhere too.) What's the point of repeating that old trope? It won't become any truer if more people say it.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by Houshalter on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:46AM (#11966941)
That may be true in the present, but I think people are mainly concerned about the future. I strongly believe in a basic income, but implementing it in a country with open borders would be impossible. Same problem with the US, where no individual state can implement socialized health care, or they would be swarmed with sick people from every other state.

As for voters in the UK, I think they are concerned about future immigrants, not the current immigrant population.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by binarymax on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:36AM (#11966510)
This is a false dichotomy I hear often.

There can still be social safety nets for citizens without the need to support free movers.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by SilasX on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:11PM (#11972074)
That third option isn't as viable as you might think -- it leads to a dissatisfied, cohesive underclass that likes to agitate for big change, often returning to the "freebies for everyone" option.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by baddox on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:31AM (#11966462)
So which is better? Providing a social safety net for "everyone" where "everyone" is defined as "only citizens of this country," or allowing a much larger "everyone" (people from many or all countries) to move to whichever place they deem to have the greatest opportunities?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by bordercases on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:58AM (#11967009)
I currently favor models that go after "easy exit, hard entry". Freedom of movement without standards causes problems. We should be free to go where we please, but it's up to other nations to set the price.

Within a nation, tiered citizen privileges with some sane defaults should control the degree of social security. Keep human rights intact, keep a basic standard of living intact, but ensure that all work is productive and that the people receiving welfare have a plan to not be economic deadweight.

I'm just one miller on the content farm: if there's one thing that I'm going to take away from this, it's that my ratiocinations don't mean jack shit. I'm still curious as to what other people think.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by ajmurmann on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:49AM (#11966602)
Unless you were to differentiate between citizens and residents.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by harryh on Friday June 24, 2016 @08:34AM (#11969258)
Because that's a good idea. Permanent underclasses in developed countries aren't a bad enough problem already.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ajmurmann on Friday June 24, 2016 @10:45AM (#11970128)
It would deter immigrants who are coming for economic reasons and don't make it or are just coming for the benefits to begin with. There of course also should still be a pass to citizenship.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by harryh on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:22AM (#11970437)
Because immigrants moving to a new country in search of opportunity and a better life is a bad thing and should definitely be deterred.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ajmurmann on Saturday June 25, 2016 @12:17AM (#11975195)
The social safety net is not he opportunity that I want immigrants to be looking for and I say that as a immigrant myself. If I had come to the US and ended up unemployed soon after my arrival, the US shouldn't have had to pay for me. If I don't like that, I can always go back where I came from. Of course it's easy for me to say since I would be going back to a wealthy European country with comfortable safety net and to middle class parents.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by studentrob on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:25AM (#11966812)
> This is really the beginning of a very long, tedious and ultimately unsatisfying couple of years of dissatisfaction and instability as we negotiate with the EU and the rest of the world.

There is at least one positive point regardless of how you voted.

The referendum gets people talking about the issue and makes them more aware of the pros and cons. Over time they will find out if that was a good or bad move for the success of the UK.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by pyb on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:24AM (#11966409)
A couple of years ? People in the know predict more like a decade.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by sandworm101 on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:05AM (#11966271)
>>> ... as we negotiate with the EU and the rest of the world.

HA! Negotiate. If Britain want to shoot itself in the foot and unsettle the world economy, it can do so on its own. The EU need not concede on anything. Why should they, given that Britain won't be a voting member in a couple years. If I were France I would start bricking up the chunnel tomorrow.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by noarchy on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:08AM (#11966286)
> If I were France I would start bricking up the chunnel tomorrow.

Depending on how things turn out in France in the near future, they may be busy fighting "Frexit" sentiments in their own country. Le Pen has already brought up the possibility (granted, I don't expect her to be in power, but the idea is out there).

Re:UK votes to leave EU by addicted on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:10AM (#11966305)
Which is exactly why I think the EU will try to make Britain a lesson and not make any concessions. It would be in the EU's interests to really damage Britain even if it means they get hurt themselves, because if Britain is allowed to leave without much pain, there may not be an EU left.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by sandworm101 on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:11AM (#11966311)
Unless seeing how badly it goes for the brits convinces them to stay. Over the next two years everyone who can will be moving money, property and family out of Britain and into somewhere more stable. This could be a real boom for France and Spain.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by Turing_Machine on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:34AM (#11966859)
France and Spain are "more stable"? How do you figure that? The UK has maintained the same basic form of government for centuries, and has been free of civil war since 1651. Spain was ruled by actual Fascists until 1975. France is on its fifth attempt at a republic (with intervening periods of monarchy, empire, reign of terror, and Nazi collaborationist regimes).
Re:UK votes to leave EU by tonyedgecombe on Friday June 24, 2016 @10:19AM (#11969921)
To be fair the Nazi thing was imposed.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by lettergram on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:14AM (#11966328)
How bad do you think this is going to be? The majority of trade for the UK is with commonwealth countries and the U.S. both of which are unrelated to the EU.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by T-A on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:23AM (#11966400)
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatisti...

Non-EU Exports for April 2016 were £13.0 billion. EU Exports for April 2016 were £12.0 billion.

Non-EU Imports for April 2016 were £21.9 billion. EU Imports for April 2016 were £19.1 billion.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by sandworm101 on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:30AM (#11966457)
Props for using actual numbers, something that was very lacking in this process.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by lettergram on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:07AM (#11966720)
My bad, it was much closer than I thought. I do recall that the majority prior to joining the EU was with commonwealth nations.

Regardless, it's not like materials to trade disappears... my guess would be the UK negotiates with the EU to basically keep trade the same. If not the UK will be increase exports elsewhere.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by matthewmacleod on Friday June 24, 2016 @03:04AM (#11967360)
That's the point though - keeping trade rules the same implicitly means keeping things like free movement and acceptance of EU regulation.

It's far from clear that the UK will be able to sort this out easily.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by tonyedgecombe on Friday June 24, 2016 @10:21AM (#11969943)
Especially since the electorate thought they were voting against free movement.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by sandworm101 on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:22AM (#11966392)
It will be as bad as France, Germany, Poland and everyone else wants it to be. Decisions as to how to tax/regulate and/or block trade with Britain are now out of Britain's hands.

Those commonwealth countries (Canada) also trade with the EU. Whether they will choose to favour britain or not is also open. We'll get back to you on that one.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by lettergram on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:09AM (#11966737)
Pretty sure trade agreements with the commonwealth remain unchanged. Basically, you don't choose to trade, if an agreement is in place the companies choose to do trade. With a weaker pound it would be cheaper to buy goods from the UK.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by themihai on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:26AM (#11966429)
How much beef does UK sell to the US? I heard this retoric question every time US trade was argued
Re:UK votes to leave EU by BrainInAJar on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:14AM (#11966329)
> This could be a real boom for France and Spain.

Switzerland's the real winner in this one

Re:UK votes to leave EU by faebi on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:09AM (#11967071)
Probably not, the Swiss franc is already strong and its getting stronger. It hurts switzerlands exports quite hard. It would be better for switzerland if all those crysises would stop so the frank would get wealk and we could export more.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ghaff on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:36AM (#11966512)
>If I were France I would start bricking up the chunnel tomorrow.

Why? Out of pique? Out of being disrespected? Out of a general tit for tat?

I don't agree with the UK voters today (from my safe spot of not being a UK voter) but it seems pretty silly for the EU or countries within the EU to treat this vote--assuming it goes ahead--as a petulant child would, damn the consequences. They should and probably will make a rational response based on their own interests whether or not they're "annoyed" or whatever the word is with the UK.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by sandworm101 on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:40AM (#11966535)
>> .. a rational response based on their own interests.

The EU was specifically meant to prevent countries taking actions in their own interest, to stop them from putting their own interests above those of other countries. Now that is done and France can act in France's interests, which probably aren't exactly the same as Britain's. They are now free to make the rational decision to, for example, place tariffs on British goods so as to protect French manufacturers.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by dguaraglia on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:10AM (#11966741)
So, what you are saying, is that France will put its own interests before the interests of the other EU countries that might benefit from trade with the UK?

Great for European unity, I see.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by kaoD on Friday June 24, 2016 @07:49AM (#11968994)
As a non-French member of the EU, I will fully support France in their decision (and hope my nation takes a similar route).

The UK never believed in the EU and only wanted the good side of it. It's better for everyone that they'll be gone. There was no European Union if a selfish state didn't want to be united in the bad things too.

If the EU as a whole decides for a new trade agreement with the UK, that's fine (See? Unity), but I think they won't since the EU has strong motivation to slap back the UK.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by UK-AL on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:51AM (#11966619)
And then we place tarrifs on all French goods.

French know this will happen, so they don't do that.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by kaoD on Friday June 24, 2016 @07:55AM (#11969027)
The UK needs the EU market more than the EU market needs the UK. The EU has strong incentives to place tariffs.

Wait until Berlin replaces London as an economic hub.

Economic war will ensue and we'll all lose.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by UK-AL on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:37AM (#11970586)
"strong incentives" What incentives? I only see negatives from this.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:40AM (#11966536)
> Why? Out of pique? Out of being disrespected? Out of a general tit for tat?

When negotiating, you never let a position of power go to waste.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by superswordfish on Friday June 24, 2016 @07:24AM (#11968838)
That's right, you should abuse the hell out of whatever small edge you've got, so that negotiations promptly end.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:53PM (#11971934)
Negotiations only end when someone walks away. The party with less power can't walk away.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by superswordfish on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:08PM (#11972050)
That... isn't how any of this works. The reason you're negotiating in the first place is because each side is holding chips. If the weaker side had to give in to the stronger's every demand, it would not be called negotiation.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by addicted on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:08AM (#11966290)
Exactly. The EU just needs to sit on their hands for 2 years, and that will mean an automatic tariff of 9% on 44% of British exports.

Although with the plummeting pound British stuff might still manage to be as cheap. Only now 4.5% of British exports will be going into European hands instead of British.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by thetmkay on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:16AM (#11966348)
What about German and French imports?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by addicted on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:22AM (#11966394)
Will also plummet. Imports will be more expensive as the pound drops (already dropped more than any other day in its history against the $).

This is a lose-lose. Everyone suffers. Trade with the UK will go down, and both the EU and the UK will be poorer.

Difference is that the EU has 10 times the population of the UK. And the EU has political disincentives to keep this breakup civil.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by toyg on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:09AM (#11966299)
The French are already saying the current agreement on border checks will be renegotiated, so they can free up Calais. The Channel will become the next Mediterranean, with flimsy boats killing people by the hundreds every month. This will call for increased naval patrols, which means increased military spending and so on and so forth...
Re:UK votes to leave EU by fixxer on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:16AM (#11966344)
Ha! You might find a lot of support for that on the Island.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by lj3 on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:14AM (#11966326)
> If I were France I would start bricking up the chunnel tomorrow.

The "migrants" are already working on it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3651956/Hundreds-mig...