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Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by nullrouted on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:39AM (#10339609)
I think the Surface Book is finally something that can give the MacBook Pro line a run for its money, this should be interesting.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by NDizzle on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:29PM (#10340060)
I had a long discussion a few weeks ago with some friends about how in the short term, Apple messed up with iOS/OS X while Microsoft took the hard, long, correct route and made the OS work in both places.

This was after the launch of the iPad Pro which is xbox-huge. I was imagining a product which was a MacBook "Base" which you could connect an iPad to as the 'screen' - except you'd have two different OSes that you'd have to cover. It's not exactly a product that fits anywhere in Apple's lineup.

This Microsoft thing is exactly what I was envisioning. You have a solid base which can include a GPU and more battery life and a detachable screen that works as a tablet. Brilliant!

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by whatever_dude on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:15PM (#10340498)
This right here. I'm almost afraid it might be too late for them, but Microsoft has been doing it right time and time again with their hardware, and now with their OS (at least after 8.1). I've been a Windows user since 3.11, but I'm always on the verge of switching over to OSX as my main dev/personal machine... Windows 10 & the Surface Pro have been able to at least delay this switch this time around.

Microsoft is the one that is closest to what I think the future should be: only one device you dock and use.

Not sure I'd want a Windows phone either (I'm currently on Android) but I might rethink that in the future as well.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Amezarak on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:21PM (#10341110)
I went from a Galaxy SIII to an Nokia Icon, now running WP 8.1.

IME, the OS and associated MS apps are fantastic, the phone is solid, and I have no complaints. If that's all you cared about I'd say switch today.

But there is definitely an app gap. I was never a huge app user, and most of what I used was there, but I'm pretty sure that's not true for most people. It's pretty hit or miss. You can find Facebook, Teamviewer, Netflix, and Plex, but if you want Snapshat, you're SOL. There aren't even any third party Snapchats around, because Snapchat demanded they be removed from the Windows Store.

There's no first-party Google apps, no doubt a big stumbling block for a lot of people.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by kyriakos on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:15PM (#10341056)
Same here. Been using Windows forever and Android for mobile. If Google releases their apps for Windows Phone I might give it a go.

I believe the idea of Continuum is targeted to light Office users, people who work on basic spreadsheets and word. It has a target market but I am not sure how big it is.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by drglitch on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:00PM (#10340333)
Oh how quickly the past is forgotten :) In early 2000s, microsoft, through its partners, tried releasing remote displays powered by windows CE - they were essentially a precursor to the tablet. Several devices were exactly as you describe.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/50755EA6-A75...

Im surprised it took over a decade to get a device that doesn't suck in that form factor, but im glad it happened.

Will be preordering one tomorrow! edit: this post was written on an MBP :)

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by spdustin on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:38PM (#10340733)
I still have my beta Viewsonic Mira unit, along with a non-branded one. And an unopened first-gen Zune, hah! Mira worked fairly well, and we used it to control what was at that time a Homeseer-based home automation setup, but battery life was awful (battery tech has come a LONG way since then).
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by scholia on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:52PM (#10341826)
> And an unopened first-gen Zune, hah!

A family heirloom!

It was actually a pretty good standalone MP3 player, for its day. (Just forget about the fairly useless sharing functions, and the marketing.)

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by bonesinger on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @06:08PM (#10342750)
It really is. I sold my 7 year old Zune a few months ago for $100 on ebay. Solidly built, fantastic device.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by mark_l_watson on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:36PM (#10340708)
Exactly right! The dual operationg system approach was a good short term decision, but I also think that Apple made a mistake, taking a long term view.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:34PM (#10341232)
I disagree. OS X already has touch support. All Apple has to do is make a touch-sensitive screen for an MBP and add an emulator window for iOS and you have a hardware unit that runs everything.

iOS was originally cut down for performance reasons. Then large parts were locked for security - especially carrier network - security.

Performance isn't an issue, but carrier security is. And I don't think mobile users are going to be happy about having to download a constant stream of unlabelled Windows updates.

Where Apple went wrong was with iTunes, and especially with the horror show involved in getting information into and out of an iDevice. If you have an independent collection of music and books, it's just too clunky.

I bought an Android Galaxy Tab recently, and not only is the screen better than the screen on any iPad, getting books into it is trivially easy.

Either way, I'm glad Cupertino has competition. There's been more than a whiff of complacency from that part of the world in the last year or so, and I hope this makes Cook and Co sit up and stop taking the high end laptop market for granted.

Although gotta say - I'm still amused to see the MS presentation design following the Apple/Jobs presentation style so closely.

Maybe both companies should just merge? That would be interesting...

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by super_mario on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @10:43PM (#10343917)
I don't think apple cares about the laptop market any more. Apple is and wants to be a phone company. Their MacBook Pro line is a legacy product. Also, their desktop OS is converging towards locked down mobile appliance and away from UNIX roots (it seems Apple won't be happy until they kill the file system access for the regular user and lock down OS X so only App Store apps can be run on it). In the end it will be a choice between buying a computer or a Mac.

So, to me Apple are out if the game. It will not be Apple who will give us the mobile workstation quality OS in a pocket device that can hook up to a screen around you and allow you to work like you do today on your desktop.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by tluyben2 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:49PM (#10341362)
I disagree as well; not because it is Apple as Google is doing the same thing; 'people' (not people reading HN generally) really don't need to power of OS X or Windows or a fullblown Linux distro. In fact, they are much better off without. Windows / OSX drive a lot of people mad; iOS/Android/Chrome are simple. There is a market for Windows/OSX/Linux obviously but the current use of Windows is very much because of the history; by far most people / most jobs do not require anything like this and are, in fact, better off with a far more limited and more straight forward option. From companies that went to iPad (Android would've worked but it seems less popular) for sales reps and other staff; they say it saves them millions on training, installation, updating etc. Nevermind for non tech savvy consumers where this is even worse. I do not know how good MS Office is on the iPad but if it is good I have no clue why 99% of employees and consumers would not be fine with a tablet + keyboard and a very limited OS.

Edit; that said; bring on the competition. I would buy a Surface Pro just to experiment if it had more battery life. I hoped the 4 would be (a lot) better in that department but it is not. So then I'll just run my MBP with El Capitan instead for now; http://i.glui.me/1GuUc4H

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by scholia on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:56PM (#10341859)
Oddly enough, Microsoft had a dual operating system approach back in the 1990s. It developed Windows CE for small devices like PocketPCs (PDAs like the iPaq) and tablets, and for Windows Mobile smartphones.

CE was also the base for Windows Automotive.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by whatever_dude on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:34PM (#10341700)
I remember when the iPhone was announced (when the OS was still called "iPhone OS") Apple actually made a point to say it was OSX, and a non-compromise kind of OS. I still remember people drooling over the fact that Apple had managed to put the Macintosh OS on a phone.

The OS was way ahead compared to what else existed out there, and I do think it got some stuff from OSX, but now it's clearly on a very different state rather than merging/

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Analemma_ on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:41AM (#10339624)
Credit to Panos and everyone who put that together, I didn't see the removable screen coming. That was the kind of "one more thing" moment that rivals Apple at their best showmanship.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by iLoch on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:47AM (#10339666)
Right before he said that I noticed the vents in the top of the screen and thought "huh, that's a weird place to put ventilation" but it didn't click in my mind until I saw it in the video.
[dead]
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by slg on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:18PM (#10339966)
Funny, I thought he just did one of the best product launch presentations of the last few years. He gave it more personality, passion, and authenticity than you normally see in these type of things. To each their own I guess.
[dead]
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by jorts on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:19PM (#10341092)
I've had the pleasure of meeting Panos as a groomsman in my friend's wedding. He's a genuinely charismatic, fun and pleasurable person.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by SNACKeR99 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:24PM (#10341136)
Comments like this don't exactly reflect well on you, either. Why not lead by example?
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by semafour on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:51PM (#10340253)
He adopted the style of a preacher. Lots of contrast: fast to slow, loud to quiet, excited to thoughtful. He left long quiet spaces, and implored the audience to ask themselves to believe. It's a deliberate style that one may or may not like.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by WorldWideWayne on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:49PM (#10340225)
Microsoft doesn't need an cult of personality or any of the shallow smoke and mirrors sales tactics that Apple utilizes. They made it to greatness without that bullshit.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by cwyers on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:42AM (#10339628)
I was really excited about the Surface Book even before they showed that the keyboard is detachable, then I about lost my mind. Holy wow.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by devit on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:51AM (#10339704)
How do they prevent the Surface Book from toppling over, given that all internals must be in the screen part?

It seems this would either double the system weight (due to counterweights) or require an extra stand in the back.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by IkmoIkmo on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:41PM (#10340160)
Well the keyboard is in the stand, part of the battery is probably in the stand, all of the ports are in the stand, the dedicated GPU is in the stand, plus the stand actually lays flat while the screen is mostly upright so in any normal position the stand could only be a fraction of the screen and still not cause it to topple right? I guess the combination of all of that and perhaps a little extra counterweight if necessary makes it work out okay.

A quick comparison, Microsoft cites 1.6 pounds as the weight. I'm assuming it's the screen only as the Surface 4 Pro (the tablet computer) alone is 1.73 pounds, and the Macbook Pro is 3.48 pounds. If the stand held the GPU, a battery pack, keyboard (and possible counterweights) and weighed as much as the screen, it'd be 3.2 pounds and still a fair bit lighter than the MBP.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by nogridbag on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:02PM (#10340947)
From: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/devices/surface-book#...

Starting at 3.34 pounds (1,516 grams) including keyboard

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by samstave on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:22PM (#10341607)
Hmm, the fact that all the ports are in the stand sucks.

I like to pull the keyboard off my surface 3 and lean it up against the wall and watch movies on it while still having mouse control from a distance.

What we really need is for every device to have an embedded Logitech controller so I no long need the usb nub dongle

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by ohitsdom on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:01PM (#10341905)
Why do you need a dongle if it has bluetooth?
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by samstave on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:37PM (#10342180)
Bluetooth nice suck and have lag issues. It may be a subjective feeling but I hate blue tooth mice
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by mozumder on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:47PM (#10341348)
Very disingenuous of them to not include the full weight spec with the keyboard.

my big worry with the MS hardware is its flimsy plasticky nature.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by scholia on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:00PM (#10341890)
None of the Surface Pro range has ever been either flimsy or plasticky. At the launch, Sinofsky put wheels on a Surface Pro and used it as a skateboard....
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by mozumder on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:47PM (#10342259)
You ever use their keyboard?
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by scholia on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @05:18PM (#10342480)
Yes, I've used all the Surface Pro keyboards. However, the keyboard is an optional accessory. You can use just about any USB or Bluetooth keyboard you like. You can probably get something industrial strength, if that's what you need....

However, I suspect we're talking at cross-purposes here. I don't know about the Surface Book keyboard. I watched the webcast but have not had a hands-on....

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by thachmai on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @05:34PM (#10342571)
The surface pro is NOT the same build quality as their cheap keyboard.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by smsx on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:43PM (#10341761)
I believe the case is all magnesium.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by cwyers on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:52AM (#10339728)
Not all the internals, apparently the GPU is in the keyboard (there's an Intel GPU on the CPU die that's used in tablet mod).
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by bsharitt on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:59AM (#10339811)
If it's anything like Asus does, it probably also has an extra battery in the keyboard.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by codeulike on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:02PM (#10339842)
Most of the battery mass is in the keyboard. Not sure what battery life is when you detatch the screen - they didn't say.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by newjersey on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:43PM (#10340187)
I was hoping you could bend the screen all the way back but I guess that'd make the tablet too heavy?
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by masklinn on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:45PM (#10340194)
You can just invert the screen and bend it over the stand. I'm guessing the problem would have been making the hinge solid and rigid enough more than a weight problem.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by moron4hire on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:53AM (#10339741)
If it's anything like other convertibles I've used that stand upright, the hinge is usually stiff enough to keep everything standing.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by spyder on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:48PM (#10341800)
In mobile devices the batteries has a lot of weight and it looks like the keyboard part has more batteries than the top part:

http://www.technobuffalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Micr...

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by blakeyrat on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @05:44PM (#10342636)
The keyboard contains the nVidia GPU and another battery-- surely enough weight to hold the screen securely.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by RobotCaleb on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:48AM (#10339677)
That reveal was pretty great.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by nogridbag on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:56AM (#10339768)
I spent about 1 hour in the Microsoft Store playing with the SP3. I loved toying with it, but I knew that if I wanted to use it for serious software development I would probably dock it with a real keyboard. The Surface Book seems to be the answer. Truly amazing.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Someone1234 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:20PM (#10339980)
I own one and that is definitely my experience.

Most tablets are content consumption devices only. The SP3 allowed you to be a "little" productive on the go with a type keyboard, and a "lot" productive in the office with a dock and a real keyboard.

If you want to be fully productive on the go, then I'd agree that buying a full laptop (e.g. Thinkpad, MBP) makes a lot of sense, and even then I'd still plug in a real mouse.

The Surface's niche is that it can be a content consumption device, semi-productive device, and a fully productive device when you need it to be (with no cover, type cover, and full keyboard/mouse respectively).

I will say the SP3's four biggest issues in my view:

- Touchpad on the cover is just terrible. Totally unusable.

- The Surface itself is too slippery without the cover.

- Some overheating issues when the GPU is utilised.

- The magnetic power cord fails too often/easily. Replaced it twice already. Look on Amazon for reviews/pictures to see what I mean.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by hcurtiss on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:15PM (#10341057)
Wow. I've used a SP3 hard for about a year now. I charge nightly, throw it in my bag daily, and cart it from meeting to meeting all day long. It's been great. I find the touchpad is excellent, I've not had problems with overheating (I mostly use Chrome and Office applications), and I'm happy with the power cord. My only critique is that the keyboard is a little louder than I'd like, and for that reason I'm considering buying the SP4 keyboard.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by nogridbag on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:11PM (#10341533)
Coming from a rMBP 15", I found the SP3 touchpad was too small for me to use comfortably. But it was still usable.

Now that they have increased the size of the touchpad and made the keyboard better, I actually have a bit of a dilemma. You can customize the SP4 preorder with an i7 and 16GB of memory for cheaper than the Surface Book i7 with 8GB memory. I'm not sure how necessary the Nvidia card is for my purposes.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by samstave on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:30PM (#10341667)
I loathe touchpads... I only mouse so I've never had any issue with the SP3s KB
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by nogridbag on Friday October 09, 2015 @01:36PM (#10361846)
Now that I've used the SP4 for a good 30 minutes, I've changed my opinion. The new SP4 type cover is vastly improved over the old one. I could use it as my primary input device.

In fact, I think it's actually a problem for MS! :) The reason why the Surface Book was so appealing was partly because the keyboard/trackpad just wasn't that great with the SP3. Now that they've improved the type cover so much, the SB seems less necessary.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by 6stringmerc on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:38PM (#10341269)
Good observation and consistent with a person close to me who got an SP3 for use in a college environment as an instructor. Their experience is that the keyboard is fine for typical use, but the trackpad is awful compared to what they experienced after years of MBP use (remedied by an external mouse). They have small hands and very precise fingers though, so I can see how they are potentially an exception.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by pkkp on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:46AM (#10339655)
My thoughts exactly. To me, OS/X's quality has been slipping, but I haven't found any non-Apple hardware that's comparable. If they get the trackpad and keyboard right on it, this will open a lot of interesting doors.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Osmium on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:59AM (#10339815)
> To me, OS/X's quality has been slipping,

I'm amused to see the 'OS/X' typo still lives on, more than a decade since OS/2's been relevant :)

On topic, I've just upgraded to the latest version of OS X and it really seems rock solid. Fastest, most stable, and most secure version yet. Still a bit of an evolutionary dead end though, in that there have been no moves to add touch support beyond multitouch trackpads. I admire their vision with keeping iOS and OS X separate, but given touch is so ubiquitous elsewhere, I can't imagine it'll be long before Windows users are genuinely surprised and baffled by the lack of touch screens in Apple laptops...

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Joeri on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:11PM (#10339908)
Probably apple's next move is not to add touch to os x but to release an iOS laptop to replace the MacBook air, they could call it an iBook. It's pretty clear OS X is legacy tech and on the roadmap for being phased out.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by sz4kerto on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:38PM (#10340134)
The big step for that would be XCode for iOS. Currently, iOS is one of the few platforms where the platform does not let you develop for itself.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by mikestew on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:18PM (#10341087)
I'd buy an iPad Pro tomorrow...if only it ran Xcode. But I can't justify $1200 or more if I doesn't help me to get my work done. At that price, and admittedly for my purposes, the iPad Pro is just a very large and very expensive gadget.

The really annoying thing is that these days a late-model iPad probably has most of the horsepower needed to pull it off.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Osmium on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:35PM (#10341237)
For me it's "I'd buy an iPad Pro tomorrow...if only it ran Xcode [and had a terminal]." It can be heavily sandboxed as far as I care, I just need a proper Unix terminal. The trouble with Xcode is that it just needs so much screen real estate, I just can't see it working very well on iOS.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by mikestew on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:54PM (#10341395)
I assume you mean a terminal for the local machine, not an SSH session to another machine, in which case Panic's Prompt is what you want for SSH.

I'm with you in that I'd like a local terminal, but I could live without if I had Xcode on the box and some sort of full-screen editing mode. Working with storyboards would indeed suck, though.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by masklinn on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:54PM (#10341401)
There are terminal emulators on iOS already, that's not the issue, but not having a local filesystem means it's only useful for remoting, there's nothing a terminal will let you do on the device (unless it's jailbroken)
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by masklinn on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:52PM (#10341382)
The MBA is already replaced, that's what the "new Macbook" is, an MBA replacement. The iBook brand was replaced by the Macbook brand and isn't going to come back (the name would collide with ibooks anyway).
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by engi_nerd on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:21PM (#10339989)
The whole discoveryd fiasco was the final straw for me with regards to having a Mac. Having such serious networking issues in your primary OS and not fixing them for almost a year after release tells me something is rotten in the Kingdom of Apple.

Yes, the issue was eventually fixed, but I'm done with Apple. They have lost my trust.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by dom96 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:37PM (#10341264)
My girlfriend is still having networking issues on her MBP. I asked about the problems on IRC and was told that it was a regression that should be fixed in El Capitan, after updating to El Capitan the issue still persists.

I was considering buying an MBP myself but after seeing the issues she is having I am changing my mind, especially after this reveal from Microsoft.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by vcarl on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:50AM (#10339697)
I can't believe how few laptops get the trackpad right. It's the first and primary interaction anyone has with the laptop, how are all of them so terrible! I'd love to get a non-macbook, but the list of laptops with powerful hardware that plays nice with a Unix based OS and has a trackpad that isn't unbearable is shockingly short.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by creshal on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:53AM (#10339746)
Anyone except trackpoint users!

But yeah, it's mindboggling. The internal hardware is largely the same anyway, why are companies throwing away a chance to get ahead of the competition and use the same shoddy keyboards/touchpads everyone hates?

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:02PM (#10341912)
Trackpoints are painful for me to use though. My fingers just aren't willing to go through that trauma anymore.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by creshal on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:40PM (#10342203)
For me it largely depends on the cap. The soft rim cap is really easy on the fingers, while the old IBM and default Lenovo caps only seem to exist to generate callus.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by masklinn on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:50PM (#10341373)
> To me, OS/X's quality has been slipping

I don't understand how anyone can state that, OSX has always had shit-show releases as a rule with a few exceptions (spit and polish cycles like Mountain Lion), and "never buy a v1 of a new design" has been the community's mantra since before I bought my first Apple device 15 years ago, it's one of the first things I was told.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by igrekel on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @07:03PM (#10343040)
Can only agree about the quality slipping.

It used to be that your computer was faster with every release of OS X. It hasn't been true for a few releases now. Oh that and my niece's iPhone 5c (not even a year old) was bricked by an iOS update. And the only thing Apple offers is a discount on the purchase of a new one...

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by creshal on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:50AM (#10339698)
> but I haven't found any non-Apple hardware that's comparable

Thinkpad Ts series? Dell's XPS/Latitude 7000 lines?

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Keats on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:52AM (#10339730)
If I can put Archlinux on that (and keep Windows for tablet mode), I think I've found my next laptop
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by nextos on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:55AM (#10339767)
XMonad, or any other tiling WM, would be lovely for tablet mode too, but probably requires some work.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Veedrac on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:03PM (#10341470)
I know someone who uses a TWM on a tablet, and it works fairly albeit as clunkily as you might expect.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by owenversteeg on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @07:49PM (#10343223)
Oh, that's exactly the person I'm looking for! (I'm considering a similar setup) Do you know what software they use/where the touchscreen works best? Thanks a ton!
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Veedrac on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @08:41AM (#10345603)
Not quite how I remembered it. Hopefully it's still useful information. In his words:

---

I was using ArchLinux from within an Android setup using a chroot. The X server ran under Android an was called XSDL, which handles keyboard and allows me to simulate rightclick. I was using Awesome. I bound volume keys to right click and Super (my WM controlling key).

The setup wasn't particularly ergonomic. Problems included the clumsiness and limitation of the X server's controls, the keyboard oriented nature of my Awesome setup, And the general lack of benefit from using a TWM. As far as I was concerned, there was limited merit in having multiple windows active at once when screen space was limited, and other WM with touch in mind would probably work better.

---

It was around 10 inch, but the resolution was about 1280 or lower, and touch wasn't that accurate. (1280x800)

---

Note that this was a while ago, and XSDL has undergone changes.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Osmium on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:53AM (#10339740)
Absolutely. Lovely to see some innovation from Microsoft that's made it out of labs (the hinge alone looks fantastic). I'd be concerned about duplication of components between the screen and the keyboard though? I can't quite figure out from their website, but it looks like the keyboard part has the dedicated graphics and battery, and the rest (and more battery) is in the screen?

I completely understand why Apple doesn't put touch-sensitive screens in their laptops, but it's such a shame. I'd love to be able to use a pen with a MacBook like this. The iPad Pro would be ideal except it lacks a proper Unix terminal, so that's pretty much out of the question for me (ssh doesn't count).

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by IanDrake on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:26PM (#10340033)
>the hinge alone looks fantastic

The hinge is the only thing that bothers me. Close the book and it seems like you'll have a thin area of metal on metal grinding on itself and end up with a rather thick profile for putting it in a laptop bag.

Also, at one point they showed the internal structure of the hinge and it looked like the Yoga's hinge that's covered with some sort of articulating plastic (god I hope not).

I'm impressed with everything else though.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by vinceyuan on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @02:53AM (#10344577)
I agree with you. If you open the lid, everything looks very good. But if you close the lid, it looks weird.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by codeulike on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:04PM (#10339859)
Yes, would be interesting to know how much battery is in the screen and how long it lasts when its detatched. Perhaps not that long? Maybe thats why they call the screen a clipboard.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by sonnyp on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:25PM (#10340600)
Probably, also the screen doesn't have any port.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by ryanSrich on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:38PM (#10340135)
Except it's still about the OS. It has always been about the OS. I'd use a $400 HP from walmart if it ran the latest version of OS X flawlessly.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by edgyswingset on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:44PM (#10340191)
Interesting. The general consensus I get when talking to people, especially devs, is that it's about apple's quality of hardware.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by ashark on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:02PM (#10340355)
For me it's the software+hardware, and the killer feature is a unixy OS with great battery life and little to no fuss. Is it possible I could get similar results out of Linux on commodity hardware? I'd put it at long odds, but even so I bet I'd have to shut off features (losing convenience) and spend a lot of time tweaking it to make that happen.

It's not even just the OS. I've switched to Safari because losing 1.5-2 hours of battery life to use Chrome or Firefox isn't worth it. I'll just open Chrome when I really need it, use it for a few minutes, and close it.

There's also a "no one got fired for..." factor. OSX refuses to work with the client's projector in a meeting? Apple sucks. Arch Linux refuses to work with the client's projector? You suck.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by jhasse on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @06:11PM (#10342772)
> Is it possible I could get similar results out of Linux on commodity hardware?

I'm using a Sony VAIO Pro 13 with Ubuntu and EVERYTHING, yes everything, works perfect. Touchpad, standby, brightness, wifi, ...

Also a friend of mine is running the Dell XPS 13 with Linux and also has no problems AFAIK.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by mhd on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:27PM (#10340618)
Yes, it's good great quality hardware -- for a Unix laptop. That was one of the biggest reason why a lot of developers who used to work with Unices on servers switched to PowerBook. Back then, Linux really lagged behind in that regard, even on ThinkPads.

The next big boost was a GUI and market situation that made it possible to create some neat productivity tools (and profit from them).

The early Ruby on Rails community probably was the epitome of that setup: TextMate as a uniquely OS X editor, easy development on your laptop, then deployment to a Linux server. I think Keynote came out right at that time, too, which was really neat for a rather weirdly conference-driven community.

Then the pretty great Unibody systems came out, combining the aircraft destroyer feel of olden Thinkpads with a more sleek design, and the first of the ultrabooks, the Air… And, of course, you basically have to use a Mac system when doing iOS dev work.

But in the recent years, I feel that Apple lost it a bit. OS X is stagnating (what's the last feature that could compete with e.g. Expose? And still no decent 1st-party package manager). Third party development/productivity software doesn't matter that much these days (it's either webapps or mobile apps; no really shiny single-platform editor anymore). Some of the Linuxens are pretty good with supported laptop hardware, so that's an option for the Unix hardcore.

And as this article is showing, Windows itself is getting more of an option even if you're not buying into the MS stack: RAM and hard drives are big enough to support virtual machines for your development environment (esp. w/ docker/vagrant/etc.) -- if you even need that, as high-speed internet is ubiquitous enough so that you can do remote development throughout.

So, yeah, while I personally still think that OS X is a more developer/hacker-friendly environment than Windows, the incentives don't appear as big anymore. So if they lose their edge in hardware quality, style and solid driver support, they'll lose a few developers more.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by mozumder on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:45PM (#10341337)
Nope. I switched to OS X in the early 2000s because of the OS X Unix underpinnings, while still having a proper GUI for design apps.

Nothing beats having the ability run Unix command line tools.

MS really needs to add these to their base OS.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by ryanSrich on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:49PM (#10340228)
I guess it depends on which devs you're talking about. I'm mostly doing web development on a day to day basis; very little VM usage, and I've never really gave my hardware a second thought. Maybe because I've always used a mac? Perhaps I'd be more picky if I had to endure poor hardware.

Having said that though I'm much more concerned with the OS capabilities, user experience, aesthetics, toolchains, etc.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by eugenekolo2 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @08:04PM (#10343304)
But the idea is that $400 won't get you a machine powerful enough to run OS X flawlessly. I too would like to pay very little to have high computing power.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by redxdev on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:39PM (#10340140)
Only problem for me is that price... $1499 starting price is a bit high for my tastes, though I'd love to have one otherwise.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by watty on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:42PM (#10340173)
I drooled when I saw it but I don't think I can justify a nearly $2k price tag. 128 GB isn't enough and I'd like the detachable GPU, which puts it at:

- 256GB/i5/8GB/dGPU: $1899

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by redxdev on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:48PM (#10340224)
Yeah... I really want the i7 with 16GB RAM but there's no way I can pay for it.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by fudgy73 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:22PM (#10340563)
It seems like Microsoft really did their homework. The Surface Book has a 3:2 display, which was one of the biggest reasons many (me included) were interested in the latest Chromebook Pixel. Complete specs are visible here: https://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/devices/surface-book...
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by pizza234 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:53AM (#10339738)
Hybrids have a very different audience compared to regular laptops (ultrabooks), as they're structurally very different (that is, they are a compromise by definition), so I wouldn't compare them directly.

Don't get me wrong, I have one instead of a regular laptop, but I can see how people used to the latter would feel uncomfortable with them, unless they have a strong motivation to move to the hybrid form factor.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by creshal on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:03PM (#10339843)
> Hybrids have a very different audience compared to regular laptops (ultrabooks)

Ultrabooks/Subnotebooks are already a compromise. We've made the transition from massive 30-40W CPUs to 15W-CPUs for mainstream notebook over the last 4 years, where net performance for notebooks stagnated at best (and regressed during the first year or two). Going from there to whatever hardware the Surface Book uses won't a big leap any more.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by yaantc on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:39PM (#10340146)
To me it's not a question of CPU power, but form factor and user experience. Hybrids have for me two big drawbacks --- and it's really subjective:

- I like small tablets and larger laptops (13.3 min, 14 prefered). So an hybrid is either a too big tablet or a too little PC, often both;

- hybrids are top-heavy, and I don't like having an hinge. I really want a LAP-top, and a ultrabook is perfect for this. An hybrid, not so much (I've heard about "lapability", not convinced ;).

Both are intrinsic trade-offs of hybrids. So I stick to small tablets + 14" ultrabook, and just don't bother with hybrids. But to each its own.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by codeulike on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:55AM (#10339764)
I'm not sure you could call the Surface Book a hybrid form factor. It just looks like a laptop until you lop the screen off.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by pizza234 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:15PM (#10340497)
That's the definition of hybrid :-)

Academic definitions aside, there hybrids have to choose a very serious compromise due to the balance:

if you make the base light (surface pro case), you won't really have a laptop, instead a tablet which sits on your legs.

if you make the base heavy, you're making a relatively heavy laptop.

now, there is of course a spectrum of choice, but practically speaking, even they make a very light tablet part (say, 850 grams), with a "heavy base", you will add 550 grams at least (550 being an odd balance).

I'm absolutely happy to have a 1.4 kg hybrid, but it's not going to compete with the upcoming wave of ultrabooks (note that I'm somewhat skeptical it will be 1.4kg, I bet it will be a little more).

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by pizza234 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:57PM (#10340899)
Update: they've just published the spec, and it weighs, as I was suspecting, 1.5kg, which is not bad for a sturdy (I assume it's going to be robustly built) hybrid.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by Joeri on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:05PM (#10339866)
Typically the tradeoff is balance. I'm curious to see how well it balances on a lap.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by codeulike on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:07PM (#10339885)
True, yeah. It seems theres a lot of batteries under the keyboard so it might be ok.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by pjspycha on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:19PM (#10339976)
Makes you wonder how good the battery life of the tablet will be.

There has to be some trade offs? If they pull this off thou.. I'll line up for one.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by zantana on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:07PM (#10341003)
I have a bay trail asus T200 which is a similar, albeit low-end, device.

The problem for me, under Windows 8.1, has been getting the machine to enter a true low power sleep state. If the machine enters the true low power state than it can work like a tablet, and if you use it lightly (say an hour a night) you can get a week's worth of use without recharging.

Unfortunately if any of the hardware components doesn't go to the low power state, the device will likely be dead or close to it if you don't use it for a day. Microsoft has a utility which tells you which component is keeping device from powering down, but doesn't tell you what software is causing this behavior. Windows 10 is supposed to improve this, but you can't turn off windows update so you lose one way to fight the battery drain.

One way you can fight this, besides plugging it in every night, is powering it down when you are finished, which isn't as bad as it seems because the device boots cold in about 5 seconds.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by bluedino on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:52PM (#10340257)
Costs as much as a MacBook, and a Windows laptop that costs as much as a MacBook has never had the widespread adoption a MacBook does.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by thachmai on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @05:42PM (#10342624)
Never say never. I love my MBP but the Surface Note has me salivating. If it works well then I'll sell the MBP.

OneNote with pen is just amazing. Coupled with the detachable high quality screen, this thing is all I can dream off at the moment.

Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by josu on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:54AM (#10339752)
If they are able to optimize the Oculus for this hardware, it could be a winning combination.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by tdicola on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:26PM (#10340037)
Why? Are you really going to drag an Oculus out to a coffee shop etc. and flail around in a VR world to everyone else's amusement? Not to mention you'll have a heck of a time getting positional tracking setup in a public environment.
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by josu on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @12:30PM (#10340071)
No, I wasn't thinking about mobility. I was thinking that this may sell pretty well, the price is adequate for the specs, and it's standardized (just one product, unlike HP or Lenovo with their Z, X, P, T32... variations).
Re:New Windows 10 Devices From Microsoft by cdnsteve on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @11:45AM (#10339644)
Surface book looks very interesting.