News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by jstanley on Saturday September 19, 2015 @04:41AM (#10243718)
I think the problem with building houses with nowhere to park is that people will just park on the street.

The purpose of the law is probably to prevent the streets from being overrun with parked cars.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by jedrek on Saturday September 19, 2015 @09:57AM (#10244296)
Limiting free parking works as part of a long-term solution to make driving a car in high-density areas miserable and expensive, while making walking, cycling or taking public transportation enjoyable and cheap.

Other than making parking expensive, I'm these include: closing roads; creating roads closed to private vehicles, allowing only electric busses/trams; city bike programs; increase in pedestrian and cycling infrastructure; closing side roads on one end to remove their functionality as transit roads; congestion charges; limiting access to the center to odd numbered plates; requiring residential buildings to include ground-level commercial spaces; narrowing roads; increasing the number of buses/trams; park and ride systems; car shares to help people living in high density areas to abandon car ownership; etc.

You can see every single one of these solutions implemented in cities all over Europe. Europe is a obviously a different case than America - almost all of its cities had centers whose roads were defined before cars were invented. After 60+ years of trying to shoehorn car culture into them, they've said "enough". They collectively decided that they literally can't afford to accommodate cars at a rate that drivers want, and decided to take another route. Which is actually an interesting phenomenon once you start noticing it - there is no infrastructure that you can build in a high density area that will not be completely filled with cars within a couple of years. The only place where high car ownership makes sense is in rural areas.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by tajen on Saturday September 19, 2015 @12:28PM (#10244698)
And to put it in global warming perspective: Urbanism is a long trend, and only countries who reduce their exposure to cars and individual transport will be able to make the turn towards reducing CO2 emissions.
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by simoncion on Saturday September 19, 2015 @04:56AM (#10243743)
Only people who can afford endless impound fees will "just park in the street".

Realistically, if there is literally nowhere to park your car, you either get rid of it, or you live somewhere else.

SF could do with much better public transit and many, many fewer parking spaces that aren't in a multi-story garage.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by michaelt on Saturday September 19, 2015 @05:34AM (#10243802)

  Only people who can afford endless impound 
  fees will "just park in the street".
It depends if all the other parking in the area is restricted - the jargon I've heard is "displaced parking" and I've seen it in action.

When a university near me raised parking prices, any road or grass verge or dropping-off point on campus that wasn't marked 'no parking' got cars on it. When those were marked 'no parking', they started parking in the customer parking of nearby shops. When the shops restricted parking to two hours, people started parking on residential streets further out. So the residential streets needed a residents permit scheme.

Now, if parking is already extremely heavily regulated you might already have the street parking and customer parking and residents parking restrictions (and admin and enforcement for them) in place. But it's my experience that restricting the supply of parking spaces isn't always a simple matter.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by IkmoIkmo on Saturday September 19, 2015 @07:12AM (#10243955)
Obviously these things take time to carry through. When you half the parking space, you don't suddenly half the amount of cars. Over time people frustrated with the parking, the fines for parking in wrongful areas and the walking distances when parking further from home, will sell their car, and over time fewer people who didn't have a car yet will buy one than they otherwise would in a world of ubiquitous parking. Gradually this reduces the amount of cars and displaced parking.

If you build new housing without parking for new inhabitants, you don't have that inherent excess of cars per parking spot. You might have some excess still but not nearly as much.

The biggest solution though is to offer alternative transport, first, and then removing, reducing or making more expensive the parking infrastructure. Here in Amsterdam the city has been removing parking and hiking up parking fees quite rapidly. But it was after establishing ubiquitous, separated, safe cycle paths everywhere, a decent tram, bus system and metro, 8 train stations (in a city of just 1 million) and another relatively high-speed underground light rail project in the works today, as well as public-transport's rentable bicycles and mini electric cars (which, due to sharing, is getting iirc about ~20 users for the space of one traditional parking spot). In Amsterdam I've never owned a personal car and won't ever need to. But having lived in America, I can't imagine that to work.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by simoncion on Saturday September 19, 2015 @08:23AM (#10244084)
> It depends if all the other parking in the area is restricted...

I thought we were talking about major and not-so-major cities; areas where there are mandates to install X units of parking per Y units of new housing. In places like these, unrestricted parking is almost non-existent.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by cmurf on Saturday September 19, 2015 @05:38AM (#10243808)
Yeah but SF makes a metric f ton of revenue off parking fees and fines. So they'd need to dramatically alter their revenue sourcing to get rid of parking spaces.
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by simoncion on Saturday September 19, 2015 @08:28AM (#10244091)
Do you have the numbers to back up your assertion?

Do make sure to compare the revenue from parking fees/fines against revenue from other sources (both similar in size and -say- the top five or top ten sources), as well as noting what fraction of the city's entire revenue is composed of parking fees and fines. The city is pretty clued-in, technologically speaking, so this information shouldn't be too hard to get.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by cmurf on Saturday September 19, 2015 @06:11PM (#10245701)
http://priceonomics.com/san-francisco-parking-meters-a-s130m...

I'm not required to do all the research you suggest, because I haven't made a comparative assertion. Most people who live in San Francisco own a car, most people who live in Manhattan do not. So it's not even remotely a fair comparison anyway. It's more expensive and dependent on parking than either Chicago or Los Angeles, but no doubt those cities can't just abandon parking without coming up with an alternative revenue stream.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by simoncion on Saturday September 19, 2015 @07:17PM (#10245891)
> Most people who live in San Francisco own a car...

I actually don't believe this. I could be cajoled into believing "Many people who live in SF own a car...", but not "Most people...". I bet if you look at the vehicle registration stats, you'll find that there are somewhere between 1/10 and 1/4 as many cars registered in the county as there are people living in it.

> I'm not required to do all the research you suggest, because I haven't made a comparative assertion.

You're never required to do anything. However, you actually did make a comparative assertion. You asserted:

> Yeah but SF makes a metric f ton of revenue off parking fees and fines. So they'd need to dramatically alter their revenue sourcing to get rid of parking spaces. [0]

That implies that parking fees and fines are a substantial portion of San Francisco's revenue. I don't care about the revenue streams of other cities. It would be nonsensical to look at them.

As I understand it, SF is a city with one of the highest per-capita city revenues in the US. I would be... rather surprised if parking fees and fines were largely responsible for its revenues. While fees and fines may bring in what appears to be a large amount of money, I expect that they account for less than 1% of city revenues. The only way to discover that is to compare them against the take from the rest of the city's revenue sources. :)

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10243808

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by marincounty on Saturday September 19, 2015 @06:56AM (#10243923)
Yea, I have gotten so many parking tickets over the years. 90 percent have been for overnight parking. You pay $2000 a month for a shitty room in a 50's cracker box house, and can't park your vechicle anywhere without getting a ticket? (Please save the Emergency vechicle egress excuses? My town happily accept $90 a quarter for overnight passes? And wide streets are treated the same as narrow streets?)

Where I reside, you can't park your vechicle more than 30 min. between 3 a.m. and 6 a.m.

Most towns I have lived in allow 72 hrs of parking, and then you need to move 300 yards. My town doesn't want to change the muni code because they make a staggering amount of Revenue.

Theses parking fines/traffic fines are revenue fueled. I honestly wouldn't be upset but these fees account for income level. They don't. You get a $38 dollar parking ticket, or a dubious $500 traffic violation--it's a setback for low income residents. Why couldn't you send in a copy of your 1040's, and have your parking violation adjusted to realistic amounts?

As to living, working, having a life, while living in the suburbs; you need a vechicle. You need to park the vechicle somewhere? Not all of us can just jump on public transportation(our public transportation is so slow, so spotty, I can get to most places in my county faster by riding my bike. (My employer doesn't like sweat soaked employees though, nor do Judges in Jury duty), or have the income to take Uber/Taxis everywhere.

My point is some of still need a automobile. Yes, we need parking rules. Fees/fines should not unreasonable? At least that's what I thought that constitution, the one one really cares about, said?

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by simoncion on Saturday September 19, 2015 @08:32AM (#10244099)
Honestly, if you're not working an entry-level job, you should be able to negotiate car storage and/or work transportation arrangements with your employer.

There are towns that use fines and citations as a source of revenue. If you live in one of those towns, and don't like the practice, agitate to have that practice changed. (Yes, I know that this is often somewhere between very goddamn hard and all-but-impossible.)

I am disinterested in responding to the rest of your comment. :)

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by jedrek on Saturday September 19, 2015 @09:58AM (#10244300)
Try riding your bike slower.
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by luch on Saturday September 19, 2015 @07:20AM (#10243969)
That's why every big Western European cities force new building houses to have an underground car park, and are pushing to remove free street parking.

That's currently happening in Paris : every parking space in the street is charged and limited to two hours; long-term parking is limited to your "neighborhood" (no spot reserved) and costs around 500€/yr; and lastly a reserved parking spot in an underground garage costs ~1000€/yr.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by kijin on Saturday September 19, 2015 @07:44AM (#10244019)
Yeah, simply reducing the number of parking spaces per residence is not a free lunch. The article is forgetting the negative externality of making people park elsewhere.

Every time someone drives around a block to find somewhere to park, their car is unnecessarily burning fuel and spewing exhaust into the air. That means more pollution, more wasted time, lower productivity, and more accidents on residential streets because all those drivers looking for somewhere to park are not paying enough attention to what's in front of them.

This looks like just another of those naive proposals that assume that people will suddenly change their lifestyles given the right regulations. That's not realistic, especially when we're talking about car ownership in the United States of Automobiles.

What we need is actual data on car ownership trends, and a model to translate that data into the number of parking spaces that will be needed in a given city over the next couple of decades. Battery-powered and self-driving cars should also feature somewhere in that calculation. Only then can we ask how many parking spaces we should have.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by simoncion on Saturday September 19, 2015 @08:21AM (#10244078)
> This looks like just another of those naive proposals that assume that people will suddenly change their lifestyles given the right regulations.

Days before I moved to SF, I sold my car. I thought once about it, looked at the cost to park it, then sold it. Had parking in the city been substantially cheaper, I would have thought a couple of dozen times about selling the thing, and may very well have ended up keeping it, despite the fact that I would have almost never used it.

There are several 2D (ie. just-a-layer-of-blacktop, rather than a multi-story garage) parking lots in my area of the city. It's obvious that they would make more money as non-rent-controlled housing. It's somewhat clear that regulations in the city are keeping those lots open, and very clear that city regulations caused me to sell my car and use public transportation. :)

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by citiguy on Saturday September 19, 2015 @09:13AM (#10244189)
Those 2d lots are probably owned by someone trying to acquire air rights. This happens in New York City all the time. Once the conditions are right you'll see a building pop into existence.
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by philwelch on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:29PM (#10244915)
If you don't think people will change their lifestyles given the right conditions, then how did we end up with car-dependent lifestyles in the first place? It's exactly because governments subsidized the right conditions for that to happen by building highways and mandating free parking and tearing down streetcar lines.
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by kijin on Sunday September 20, 2015 @12:17AM (#10246540)
The keyword here is "suddenly".

I'm pretty sure we'll be able to get away with fewer parking spaces in the long term, just like we built them guadually over the decades. But if we suddenly start eliminating them, traffic will be hell for the next 10-20 years.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by philwelch on Sunday September 20, 2015 @02:47AM (#10246770)
10-20 years is a bit of an overstatement. People aren't that stupid. The important thing is to have realistic alternatives, i.e. grade-separated transit.
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by ocschwar on Saturday September 19, 2015 @12:42PM (#10244746)
Yeah, simply reducing the number of horse stalls per resident is not a free lunch. The article is forgetting the negative externality of making people tether their horses in the park.s
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by revelation on Saturday September 19, 2015 @08:47AM (#10244124)
So we make a law that subsidizes car ownership in order to continue subsidizing car ownership with street parking?

Street parking in a city like SF is insane. It should simply not exist. If you want to have your truck stand around all day in prime location, you better start paying market rate for that space.

Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by ocschwar on Saturday September 19, 2015 @12:44PM (#10244749)
Or, if the street needs a line of two ton shields to separate car traffic from pedestrians, and you're willing to volunteer yours, we can come to an accommodation.
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by TheCoelacanth on Saturday September 19, 2015 @12:50PM (#10244775)
Well, you shouldn't subsidize free parking in the street either. Charge market rates for it.
Re:Free parking isn’t free: Parking mandates hurt America’s ... by maxsilver on Saturday September 19, 2015 @03:04PM (#10245229)
> I think the problem with building houses with nowhere to park is that people will just park on the street.

This is exactly what happened in my city. They created a "transit oriented development zone", but never actually provided any new transit.

The developers got to save lots of cash by not building any parking, and the streets are full of cars that everyone is still required to own and park to get anywhere.