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Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by pjc50 on Monday August 24, 2015 @10:42AM (#10110121)
A key point here is that surveying the job market before embarking on your degree is not sufficient: there's a four year lag. The guy with the master's in town planning is an obvious victim of this.

A more subtle point is that the more specific the degree is the more vulnerable it is to obsolescence or changing market conditions.

People keep saying "we need more STEM graduates", but without being more specific about exactly what degrees people should do it's just going to result in more of this kind of problem.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by angdis on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:06AM (#10110320)
Another facet of this problem is misaligned expectations about the PURPOSE of a degree. There seems to be an underlying assumption here that a university degree is nothing other than "job training".

Is a university degree basically a form of "Vo-tech school"?

That's what a lot of students and employers seem to think.

At the same time, many people do just fine in their careers after college even if they majored in English Lit or philosophy. Perhaps we should consider the possibility that "an education" is a separate thing from vocation training?

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by austenallred on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:12AM (#10110359)
If the primary purpose of getting a college degree isn't getting a good job, then every high school teacher and advisor I ever had lied to me.

> many people do just fine in their careers after college even if they majored in English Lit or philosophy

Yes, but many, many don't, and they take out loans expecting "jobs" of one sort or another to be there upon graduation. I can't count the number of friends I have with $50K+ in student loans working at minimum wage jobs with a worhless degree on two hands.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by angdis on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:38AM (#10110547)
Well, yes, they did lie to you (a little bit).

If you really _just_ want "a good job" there are easier ways to do it than going to a 4 year university.

I think that students who major in something like philosophy or literature are aware of what awaits them after college and are going into it with open eyes. Those that expect more than entry-level jobs immediately after college are simply failing to grasp reality.

That said, a good education, whatever the subject matter is DOES HELP people in their lives in ways which are hard to measure. Bright English lit majors who end up as waiters after college, don't necessarily remain as waiters for the rest of their careers.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by saint_fiasco on Monday August 24, 2015 @01:37PM (#10111586)
>If you really _just_ want "a good job" there are easier ways to do it than going to a 4 year university.

The weird thing is, if you replace "want \"a good job\"" with "want \"a good education\", that sentence is still true.

You can get a good education at a library, a bookstore, fucking around on the internet, and more recently, MOOCs.

Universities are still useful if you want to advance the state of the art, discover something new, and so on. Not so good if you just want to learn things already known by others.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by codingdave on Monday August 24, 2015 @07:47PM (#10113525)
You are correct, but... do you think that anyone on Hacker News wants to just learn what has come before, and add nothing new to the world?
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by saint_fiasco on Monday August 24, 2015 @08:49PM (#10113762)
Hacker News readers are lucky in that the things that interest us are also things that people pay you to do, so we are not likely to choose a degree that is worse than useless.

For people with different interests, there is a trade-off.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by angdis on Monday August 24, 2015 @06:46PM (#10113346)
I am sure that extraordinarily dedicated people can educate themselves in a library or using internet resources as well as in a university, Abe Lincoln did it, right? But for the vast majority of young folks that just isn't going to fly, let alone be "easier" than a 4-year degree.

Perhaps in the future things will be different, the resources just aren't there right now.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by saint_fiasco on Monday August 24, 2015 @08:40PM (#10113727)
Then again, unmotivated people can waste four years in college and learn nothing.

There might be a sweet spot if you are dedicated enough not to just go through the motions at college and actually take advantage of it, and yet you are not motivated enough to do that outside of college.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by pjc50 on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:45AM (#10110613)
I really don't think people do realise this. Everyone still believes it's an automatic entry ticket to a middleclass lifestyle. As you say, they were lied to.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by austenallred on Monday August 24, 2015 @12:15PM (#10110853)
Yes. Most are taking advice from parents/grandparents/teachers, for whom a degree was a guarantee.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by eaandkw on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:38AM (#10110546)
I'm sorry to burst your bubble but most teachers and advisors are lying to everyone. You can get some pretty respectable jobs in construction or the oil business without ever getting a college degree. People just have to be willing to work hard and maybe get a little dirty. If you are a good worker that only last for a few years before you move up to better positions.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by austenallred on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:57AM (#10110716)
I mean, I never got a degree, so I don't really care. But the notion that "People don't go to college expecting to get jobs" is absurd.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by codingdave on Monday August 24, 2015 @05:09PM (#10112943)
You are mostly friends with young people, I would guess. The value of education adds up over your entire life. Right now, the economy is leaving young people without good jobs. But eventually, they all will find something better. And at that point, the education that came along with the degree will help them to do better, and advance in their career faster.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by egoodz on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:48AM (#10110639)
Except it's not "job training". Many employers want professional experience in addition to the degree.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by hackerboos on Monday August 24, 2015 @10:55AM (#10110246)
The data is not always that good. For example, the BBC ranked Computer Science as one of the worst degrees to have when looking for a job:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7549106.stm

I've also seen it on the top 10:

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/these-are-the-10-best-...

Although there's a 5 year difference.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by simonh on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:51AM (#10110669)
I interview CS graduates from time to time. Most of them have nothing up on GitHub, a mobile phone or tablet with nothing they've written running on it to show off, not even a Stack Overflow account. When I graduated in 1990 all my friends were doing CS because we loved it, we'd been programming since we were teenagers. Just as personal fun side projects I have stuff in GitHub, scripts I can show off on my iPhone and a few thousand points in SO. If a kid wants to be a programmer, nobody is stopping them. They'd don't have to get permission from anyone. My advice to kids doing CS is that if you want to be a programmer, then be one. Make that what you are. But most of them have no real passion or interest in the subject except as a means to a pay check.[/grumpyoldman]
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by xorcist on Monday August 24, 2015 @12:37PM (#10111051)
Not everyone is like you. I don't have a Stack Overflow account. My Github account is sparse. I have never understood the lure of creating content for free for other companies.

I'd like to think I'm not that uncommon for a geek. I love coding. (I have been coding since the 80s, and professionally since the late 90s. You will find my name in a handful of credits files, and a number of mailing list and usenet posts.)

But I won't start using centralized services just because you or some recruiter decides it's the new cool place to be. Sorry.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by simonh on Monday August 24, 2015 @01:14PM (#10111389)
I don't mean they have to specifically have this or that account, the point is building your own portfolio of work and a history of productive professional engagement has never been easier. Maybe you already have a work history that puts you beyond that kind of issue, but for those who don't there are numerous ways to build a presence. Don't like GitHub or programming phones? Heroku has a free tier and there's always Google AppEngine. SO doesn't float your boat? How about a blog on a subject that does? I can't even count the ways a young techie has to stand out from the crowd. I'm not saying it's required or in any way mandatory from my perspective, but given a choice between two otherwise similar candidates, the one with an engaging and accessible portfolio of work will win out.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by jazzyk on Monday August 24, 2015 @02:34PM (#10112044)
Most of the software that gainfully employed engineers work on all day is owned by the company they work for (or consult for). If you disclose any details about it, you may be sued [google "Sergey Aleynikov" :-)]
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by simonh on Monday August 24, 2015 @05:57PM (#10113142)
Yes indeed. But I completely fail to see how that is relevant to my point. Im not saying anything about posting code that belongs to other people, even if you wrote it, and I'm mainly talking about those without a commercial track record. Although even then, having some spare time projects on GitHub never seems to have hurt my prospects in interviews.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by whateveracct on Monday August 24, 2015 @01:21PM (#10111448)
It's perfectly valid for a CS grad working in industry to keep their work at work. You don't need to be spending 40 hrs a week at work + your free time at home on CS and programming to be worth hiring.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by dfrey on Monday August 24, 2015 @12:11PM (#10110812)
I don't think the phenomenon is unique to CS and engineering. I bet there are tons of people in medicine, dentistry and law that are primarily in it for the money.

Never mind people who do business degrees. It's almost expected that they are in it for the money.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by brador on Monday August 24, 2015 @12:19PM (#10110897)
This right here. You either have useful work experience or a portfolio of your work, or i'm trashing your resume.

It's also amazing how many CS majors waste their 3-4 years addicted to video games (LOL seems to be the big one right now). Those 1000's of hours are better spent building that portfolio that will net you $100k day 1 out of your degree.

Video game addiction is serious. Google for solutions, it can be fixed. It does not improve your resume to mention your lol rank.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by stuxnet79 on Monday August 24, 2015 @03:27PM (#10112406)
I haven't gamed seriously in about 5 years, because I have been busy finishing up my undergraduate degree. Now that I've graduated and I'm employed I've started building a gaming rig, with hopes of getting back into the hobby. Now that I've read this I'm wondering if I should even bother. Perhaps I should focus on building my portfolio more. I find video games help me unwind so that I don't have a restless feeling when I'm focusing on what really matters. In adequate amounts I think video games are alright. I'm wondering what your threshold for "addiction" is though ...
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by thfuran on Monday August 24, 2015 @03:58PM (#10112603)
Do you want to spend your life gaining work experience and building a portfolio to ensure maximum salary, or do you want to spend your life doing what you want do? Some people program as a hobby and convince themselves that anyone who has different hobbies is a worthless programmer, but that is nonsense. Build that gaming rig.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by lfowles on Monday August 24, 2015 @05:10PM (#10112946)
Do what you find enjoyable. There's little point fighting it. My personal threshold for addiction is "this is a mindless time filler keeping me away from other things I want to accomplish" which is enough for me to determine that the activity is only marginally more enjoyable than doing nothing. Plus, except for the pricy GPU, a gaming rig is mostly a good development rig!
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by simonh on Monday August 24, 2015 @01:23PM (#10111469)
I take your point, but I get enough pleasure from Kerbal Space Program that wouldn't blame others for needing their occasional gaming fix. But sure, being a productive and active person should come first.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by whateveracct on Monday August 24, 2015 @01:25PM (#10111480)
> But sure, being a productive and active person should come first.

This viewpoint is garbage. Outside of work hours, a person has no obligation to be career-focused. Tech shouldn't require someone to be about their career in their free time as well.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I sure hope I am because this expectation to make CS your hobby to be a valid CS grad in the workplace is awful.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by stuxnet79 on Monday August 24, 2015 @03:28PM (#10112418)
I agree with this. Even when I used to game seriously, I wasn't gaming all the time (some of my friends shocked me with how seriously they took the hobby). I really envy people who can dedicate their entire lives to doing one thing and one thing only 24/7 - whether gaming or coding. That is beyond me.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by lfowles on Monday August 24, 2015 @05:20PM (#10112991)
> I really envy people who can dedicate their entire lives to doing one thing and one thing only 24/7 - whether gaming or coding.

Similarly, I used to have a crippling envy of accomplished coders who were same age as me, which has long since evaporated.

Probably a symptom of ADHD, my life consists of many short distinct phases where I hyperfocus on an interest. Knitting, woodworking, programming, reading, etc. I do have several projects that I wish I could just dedicate a couple of months too, however! Seeing how far I could get in a dedicated week always makes me long for another month of intense focus.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by simonh on Monday August 24, 2015 @06:03PM (#10113167)
That's not my point at all. I'm just saying that if you don't have a career history to demonstrate your ability and experience, there are still many, many ways to do that. I'm not saying it's a requirement, but it's a valid and useful option.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by lfowles on Monday August 24, 2015 @05:14PM (#10112961)
Interesting perspective, but consider time allotment for a day. You get 24 hours generally broken down into: ~8h sleeping, ~8h working/studying, ~8h "free time". Can't you argue that they're being productive by virtue of their day job or the courses they've taken?
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by jazzyk on Monday August 24, 2015 @02:36PM (#10112061)
I have hired plenty of excellent software engineers of various seniority levels who had no presence on the web WHATSOEVER.

Developers come in many different shapes and forms :-)

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by netcan on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:58AM (#10110721)
Thanks for the link. That's an important point.

I think part of the problem is the pace of change. That's both the reason for the bad data and the time lag issue. It's just impossible to make a decent guess at the necessity of acquirable skills on a useful timescale. Even technical skills that have a fantastic outlook from todays vantage point… Our visibility is not really that far, 15-20 years at a stretch.

For example, it seems like a good bet that for the next 15-20 the skills that allow you to write programs for a living will still be marketable, assuming a non trivial amount of re-skilling along the way. past that, who knows. For a 20 year old, that's one third of a career.

Take the skills required to be employed in the enormous and affluent financial sector. Accounting, finance, data analysis, math.

Can you imagine that over the next 15-20 years something happens (bitcoin?) that turns this business on its head and makes a big chunk of its employees obsolete?

For the opposite, can you imagine that 15-20 years from now gene-tech has created industries that demand geneticists the way programmers are now in demand?

Pace of change is itself a meaningful change.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by jsingleton on Monday August 24, 2015 @12:12PM (#10110825)
I'm not sure you should choose a degree based purely on that anyway. Doing something you enjoy is important to stay motivated.

Another metric you could use is value for money. There is not a lot a CS course provides that you couldn't do yourself if sufficiently motivated. Whereas a Chemistry course provides a lot of facilities and kit. One of the reasons I went for EEE rather than CS. Pretty tricky to build a clean room or giant laser at home.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by Yhippa on Monday August 24, 2015 @11:01AM (#10110282)
When I went to university in the late 90's we saw the same thing. CS degrees were so hot that they rationed entry into the program where I went. Fast forward to 2001 and you have the dot-com bust. At that moment in time I'm sure there were a ton of statistics like this discouraging people from going into that major.
Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by nine_k on Monday August 24, 2015 @10:53AM (#10110227)
I suspect that a "non-specific" degree in STEM is more valuable than a narrowly specific one. The very point of university education is to produce an individual with a broad spectrum of knowledge, who in the future can adapt to various specific conditions, probably not known or not existing by the moment of graduation.

If a four-year lag has any chance to eat your job, what's the point of getting a degree for it? A degree should land you jobs for several decades to be worth the investment.

Re:'My degree is next to worthless' by wfo on Monday August 24, 2015 @12:14PM (#10110840)
We don't need more stem graduates; employers of stem workers make the claim to drive down salaries of stem workers. Currently there is no shortage of highly educated stem workers; there is just a shortage of highly educated stem workers willing to work for minimum wage.