Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by kfk on Monday July 13, 2015 @06:39AM
(#9877277)
The issue with Greece is that they were given money and they did not change anything, they just kept spending. Giving them more money is just going to delay the inevitable - they will go bankrupt, full stop. They don't produce enough of "what people want", plus they spend more than they can afford to, and that's that. The real problem is that the Eurozone has no mechanism to deal with bankrupt. There should be an easy way out of the Eurozone or an "easy" way to default. Italy will follow Greece, sooner or later, maybe Portugal and who knows, even France. We have to deal with the fact we have broken public spending all around Europe and that will catch up, if not now, in 5, 10, 15 or so years. But markets adapt to this king of stuff, they will soon build default risks in their prices and demand higher interests, on the other end, when a country default, we will be able to leave the loss to the private sector and not to the tax payers, which is the real shame in all this story.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by RobertoG on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:07AM
(#9877347)
“The issue with Greece is that they were given money and they did not change anything, they just kept spending.”
I don't understand why this is repeated again and again.
The reality has nothing to do with that. Greece has implemented austerity policies that no other country in Europe has implemented. Compared to the American big depression, they have lived for a longer period of time with worse economic conditions.
The recipes coming from the Troika has been implemented and the result is that they are in a deeper hole. So they say “now what?” and the answer is “keep digging”.
I am amazed how brainwashed is the public opinion.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by adventured on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:37AM
(#9877456)
They would need a truly massive bailout at this point given how shot their economy is (and it's going to get worse yet). Who in their right mind would give Greece another $200 or $300 billion, which will be vaporized and simultaneously not result in sustainability. Which Eurozone members can even afford to pick up that tab, given the risk involved?
Here's what is going to happen: Greece will exit the Euro, issue their own currency, and debase the Greek standard of living by a drastic amount. There is no other possible outcome than for Greece to reset its economy at a much lower basis.
It's the exact same outcome as further austerity, merely camouflaged by the lie of inflation.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by RobertoG on Monday July 13, 2015 @08:10AM
(#9877586)
" Who in their right mind would give Greece another $200 or $300 billion"
If you say that, it looks like we are short of Euros. I would like to remember you that just now we are in the middle of:
"The European Central Bank launched its long-awaited bid to revitalise the eurozone economy and counter deflation with a €60bn-a-month bond-buying programme that was far larger than investors had expected. "
( http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/aedf6a66-a231-11e4-bbb8-00144... )
So, we are missing some political will here, not money.
"It's the exact same outcome as further austerity, merely
camouflaged by the lie of inflation."
It's not. It's the same numbers but very different outcome for the people in the street that have very little blame in all this. But, if something have been proof in all this Greek tragedy is that nobody cares about the people in the street.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by fennecfoxen on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:18AM
(#9877389)
You're right, this story's a little inaccurate. The problem with Greece is that they were given tons of money, they did change things, they did austerity - some of the best kind of austerity, too, like raising the retirement age, keeping people in the economy and working without the biggest impact on spending - and they did a little market reform to promote competition. And their recovery was underway, and then their people voted in a government which promised to change things back and make everything 100% painless, and then that government tried to be the hardball negotiator but without anything they could do to back up their bluster.
The other problem with Greece is that they're the sort of nation where you have a nationalized health care system but you need to bribe the doctor to get an appointment. (And private industry is also sclerotic and more about bribing the regulators than being able to compete.) Lying to the EU about budget deficits in the past should be seen in this context.
And the other problem with Greece is that they see Merkel in this negotiating group and think "Oh, the Germans want to occupy us again like in World War II." ANGELA MERKEL IS HITLER2.0! VOTE LEFTIST! RESIST THE REFORMS!
(and according to some reputable publications on the topic of international relations, like the Wall Street Journal, word on the street in Brussels is that a lot of these countries would be happier if Greece just walks away then if they accept bailout terms at this point, because they don't trust them to actually stick to the bailout terms.)
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by claudius on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:30AM
(#9877436)
Greek GDP was grossly overinflated in 2008 by overspending in the public sector. Compared to 1990, Greece still grew 80% points more than e.g. France until 2014, so they really don’t have much to complain about.
Public spending of GDP was 46.9% in 2008 and 49.3% in 2014.
Really, the brainwash is probably on the other side. Everybody talks about austerity, yet public spending has been growing steadily after WW II pretty much everywhere, even after 2008.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by kfk on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:52AM
(#9877498)
Well, 3 things. First, to define austerity, you need to use ratios, absolute values make comparisons impossible and 49.3% of public spending on GDP is not austerity, by any means. Second, the graph you linked shows similar level of spending as 2001 and I am not aware of any austerity claims during that year in Greece. Third, how much public spending do you want? 60/70% of GDP? Because that's what it takes to keep the same level of spending as 2007/8. Do you think that's reasonable? More than half of the economy managed by a (very corrupted) State?
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by dpark on Monday July 13, 2015 @08:19AM
(#9877638)
> First, to define austerity, you need to use ratios, absolute values make comparisons impossible
In what way do actual Euro amounts make comparisons impossible? I'd say Euro amounts are much clearer, because they tell you about government spending without conflating the economic state. GDP vs spending implies that spending hasn't dropped, when in fact it's actually dropped by something like 30% since 2008. The fact that the economy has also contracted drastically in that time doesn't mean spending wasn't cut.
> Second, the graph you linked shows similar level of spending as 2001 and I am not aware of any austerity claims during that year in Greece.
I'm at a loss for words here. This just makes no sense. By this logic, Greece can never implement austerity. No matter how deeply they cut, they'll never reach a level lower than the lowest point in history.
Further, assuming just 1% inflation per year, spending the same in 2015 as 2001 means an effective spending cut of 15%.
> Third, how much public spending do you want?
What I want isn't really relevant. The question was whether the Greek government has implemented the austerity measures they agreed to. Given the 30% contraction in spending, it seems like they certainly implemented some measures.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 13, 2015 @02:39PM
(#9880062)
The generally accepted theory of economics these days is that, as a nation's economy hits a downturn, the government should spend more, not less. Not "more as a higher percentage of GDP" - GDP is shrinking. No, the theory is, the government should spend more in absolute terms.
That's the theory. The theory could be stupid if too much government debt is what caused the downturn in the first place.
And the theory usually breaks in this way: There is a downturn. The government spends more. The economy picks back up eventually. The government continues to spend more. That means, to have any effect, at the next downturn, the government has to spend even more. And that eventually gets you to the situation stated in the previous paragraph.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by kfk on Monday July 13, 2015 @03:28PM
(#9880439)
I think you guys should read Schumpeter. There is no economist sane (or honest) in his mind proposing to do more random public spending when things go south. Think of it this way - if an economic downturn hits US, would you rather leave more money to ycombinator to invest in promising startups, or tax them more and use that money to "grow" the economy through public spending?
And let's be realistic, Greece is like Italy. An enormous proportion of the public spending goes to pay privileges (pensions that are too high, useless public jobs, useless buildings, etc.), do you really think that money will grow the economy? Don't you think it creates much more value if left to the private sector? Of course, you need a real private sector, with clear rules for everybody, and that's exactly what they don't want to do! You see the problem here?
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by adventured on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:45AM
(#9877477)
What austerity has come to mean, is: 'slow down in spending expansion.' The same austerity talk has been frequent in the US since 2008, where there has been zero actual austerity.
Most Eurozone economies are dependent on growth in government spending to generate GDP growth. With slow government spending expansion, GDP growth in the Eurozone fell to basically zero for seven years. Panic sets in when they can't expand government spending, because everything else is so dependent on it.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by kfk on Monday July 13, 2015 @06:54AM
(#9877319)
You might be right. However, see this: Italy has voted Berlusconi for 20 years and now has another despotic leader who might stay another 20 who speaks poor English and has very bad understanding of economics. Meanwhile, no real policy change has been done in ages. The last try to reduce pension spending cutting the highest pensions has been rejected as not constitutional, but I digress. How is Italy going to get out of the hole it has been digging for 30 years? I just don't see it, but I may be wrong, I hope so at least.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by jazzyk on Monday July 13, 2015 @10:06AM
(#9878113)
True, we are talking about economics, not languages, so the OP projected PM's incompetence in one area without providing additional facts.
However, I see nothing arrogant for his country citizens (who pay his salary) to expect of the highest-level official of a EU country to have such basic skills as speaking English.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by gizmo on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:16AM
(#9877381)
Loaning more money to a country already drowning doesn't solve anything, obviously. Greece is already insolvent (not bankrupt), and giving them more debt doesn't fix that.
I agree that there should be a way for countries to leave the Eurozone. Also, at least one of two things need to happen:
- introduce a cap on borrowing (during boom periods), so that countries can't get themselves into excessive debt.
- create a bailout fund so that countries that mess up can be helped back on their feet.
> we will be able to leave the loss to the private sector and not to the tax payers
You're aware that the first bailout moved the losses from predatory lending from the private sector to the European taxpayer, aren't you? The entire story of the last five years is that the regular people are getting punished and the institutions get bailed out.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by evgen on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:29AM
(#9877428)
There is no such thing as a "European citizen" so it is not surprising that no one cares about them or people with delusions that they are citizens of a mythical European nation-state.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by RobertoG on Monday July 13, 2015 @08:30AM
(#9877691)
I am one of these citizens.
There are two possibilities:
1. You believe in Europe. You understand there are faults in the Euro design that bring to this situation. You try to fix the problem with the minimum of suffering of European citizens.
2. You don't care about "Europe" you only want your money back: If this is the case, you should implement some kind of agreement that leave the debtors to recover enough to pay something.
Nothing of that is happening.
What is going on is that I, a European citizen, give public money from my taxes to the Greek government so he can repair private debts to French and German banks and now that they are free of the mess, we are going to destroy the Greek economy because..
well because they are lazy and they really deserve it. Who cares if we don't get the money back. At least they will learn a lesson.
Oh yes, and they should privatize everything, stop collective bargaining and put their assets under German control.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by sorincos on Monday July 13, 2015 @08:42AM
(#9877735)
Um, actually what was going on so far was that I, a European citizen, gave public money from my taxes to the Greek government to do nothing of use - neither for the Greek citizen, nor for me. So there's also a possibility number 3 which means don't trust those guys, which is unfortunately exactly what's going on right now. Both the former and the actual Greek rulers lied big time - to the EU AND to their people, whatever is worse it's everyone's to decide.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by tonyedgecombe on Monday July 13, 2015 @11:02AM
(#9878516)
The situation would have been worse if we hadn't, by the end of last year Greece was only paying 3% of GDP to service its debts, private banks would have wanted much more.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by nailer on Monday July 13, 2015 @06:35AM
(#9877265)
I (genuinely) do not understand: Greece had the choice to not accept the bailout. It was a hard and potentially dangerous choice, but the Greek people made it.
- Why is Tsipras ignoring the people?
- Why do people think the Greek government didn't have the choice (eg '#thisisacoup' on Twitter)? Just because it's a difficult choice doesn't mean the choice didn't exist.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by gizmo on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:06AM
(#9877346)
1. Because Tsipras hoped that the referendum would make Germany become more sympathetic. It didn't. Tsipras isn't willing to risk a Grexit, because that could turn out a total catastrophe. The only option that remains is capitulation.
2. #thisisacoup refers to the offer made. Offering a country to give up sovereignty is a coup, pretty much. It goes against all democratic principles Europe was founded on. The alternative (grexit) is impossible without support from ECB/IMF to prevent a complete collapse of the financial system. Tsipras didn't prepare for this plan B. So Germany made Greece "an offer they couldn't refuse": Greece has 72 hours to implement all sorts of laws or face utter destruction.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by claudius on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:29AM
(#9877429)
@2: Taking sovereignty from a government is a coup. Offering money to a country is everything, but not a coup. If a coup did take place, it took place in northern europe, where governments ignored the will of the people and went ahead to waste more money on the corrupt Greek system. The fact that Greece may or may not face “utter destruction” is solely due to Greek overspending and irresponsibility. What Germany offered was help under the condition that Greece stops killing itself.
Related: Why didn’t Greece implement some reforms already? Everywhere it seems to be a common understanding that reforms are only going to be implemented in return for more money. However, it is fairly obvious that it is in the country’s best interest to e.g. tackle its tax-collection problem regardless of whether or not new euros arrive. Why then does northern Europe have to insist on (among others) this reform and offer an incentive in the form of new credits to have it implemented? Can we go to Greece next week and say “Unless you pay us 80 billion over the next 3 years, we’re going to stop collecting taxes and face ‘utter destruction’!”? Can we then continue and blame them for staging a coup when they insist they’ll only pay those billions if we, in fact, do continue to collect taxes?
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by gizmo on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:48AM
(#9877489)
Did you just claim Greece committed a coup on Germany? This can't be serious. Every government on the planet squanders money. That doesn't mean the government action is illegitimate or undemocratic.
> Greece faces [utter destruction] solely due to Greek overspending and irresponsibility
Not true. Have you been following the discussion? It's a multifaceted problem. One huge aspect is that the production in Greece can't compete with production in northern Europe. Besides, moral grandstanding doesn't solve anything. Bad policy just makes the situation in Greece worse. So we shouldn't do that. Punishing people for the mistakes of their government is cruel and pointless.
> What Germany offered was help under the condition that Greece stops killing itself.
Unfortunately, nope. Germany offered more debt to a country already in debt, and demanded the sort of reform that damages the already deeply depressed economy. It's not help if it's not helping.
> Related: Why didn’t Greece implement some reforms already?
Because Germany forbade it. Syriza wanted to raise taxes and take on tax evaders ages ago. Germany said no, because that would be "unilateral action" and would lead to even greater hostility. Did you follow the crisis at all?
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 13, 2015 @02:54PM
(#9880192)
> Unfortunately, nope. Germany offered more debt to a country already in debt, and demanded the sort of reform that damages the already deeply depressed economy. It's not help if it's not helping.
Then don't take it.
I think it's really that simple. If Germany's offer (and everyone else's, but the focus seems to be on Germany) is so horrible, then don't take it.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 13, 2015 @02:57PM
(#9880209)
So Tsipras destroyed any remaining German good will by asking for a referendum, told the people of Greece to vote no, and then, after they voted no, Tsipras doesn't do what the people said to do in a referendum that he called for and where he told them which way to vote? It was all just a bluff to try to change Germany's position?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but... words fail me.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by atmosx on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:09AM
(#9877359)
I strongly believe that as Krugman pointed out, if Greece were to exit the EUR, Germany would have pushed for a Eurozone exit as well, probably issue some sort of embargo and made everything possible to made an example out of Greece. It already did actually.
I think that was the meeting all about: They told Tsipras that he either sign a deal or face oblivion one way or another.
Greece had no real allies.
The people in Greece made a choice last week and are ready to make many difficult choices. The problem is that we (me and other citizens) are caught between the hammer and the anvil, on one side we have Europeans who don't care and on the other a corrupted government who doesn't want to take on anyone, oligarchs (ship-owners, tax-evaders, etc.). See my other comment above for details. (to be posted in a while).
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by claudius on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:32AM
(#9877440)
> The problem is that we (me and other citizens) are caught between the hammer and the anvil, on one side we have Europeans who don't care and on the other a corrupted government who doesn't want to take on anyone, oligarchs (ship-owners, tax-evaders, etc.).
So because you don’t want to fix your government and continue the oligarchic corruption, the rest of Europe must pay? Please explain why Germany should continue to pour money into Greece if, after five years of known problems, there are still oligarchs and tax evaders there.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by pjmlp on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:31AM
(#9877438)
I care, and lots of us that know Greece(Portuguese) also care.
Unfortunately there are also lots of us, including our government, that like to pretend that our country is better and doesn't do the same kind of corruption like most Mediterranean countries.
Like the Porto mayor yesterday stated, pretending that we are the most well behaved poor in poor's street.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by chestnut-tree on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:21AM
(#9877398)
Numerous news articles, including this one, state that the new bailout package is harsher and more severe than the one proposed before the referendum. It makes no sense. The Greek government appears to have completely capitulated to the demands of the creditors.
Who wants to be a cheerleader for the EU after all this? This crisis has cast a pall over the whole European project. It's shown that the odious, un-caring, self-centred politics we all despise in our national politics is just as rampant and alive in the heart of European Union politics.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by Bouncingsoul1 on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:33AM
(#9877443)
Here, me, i'll be the cheerleader. EU is great. Back in the days the next zoo was 20km but in another country, so we had to go through border control and afterwards exchange money. And this was a border you could pass, back then there was a great wall splitting Europe. Since then a lot has changed, I worked in Germany, Spain, Sweden, Italy and currently in Austria without an issues. Europe and the EU is for me and a lot of my generation something we are used to and don't want to give up easily for some "odious, un-caring, self-centred politics"
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by iofj on Monday July 13, 2015 @09:25AM
(#9877921)
That's very cool. Next time you cross the border, give a moment's thought that the price of that 5 minute savings was to reduce average pensions of hundreds of thousands of people from 550 to under 400, and now again to under 270.
You may want to consider your own pension. If you are about to say that it's with a private bank and thus safe, you may want to look up Cyprus and what happened there.
Make no mistake : the price of your convenience now is being destitute and even hungry if you don't own a house when you lose your job above age 50 or so. Nobody's hiring >50s anywhere after all. That's somewhere between 10 and 30 YEARS you'll spend as a beggar, once you're not capable of working anymore.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 13, 2015 @02:59PM
(#9880234)
> It's shown that the odious, un-caring, self-centred politics we all despise in our national politics is just as rampant and alive in the heart of European Union politics.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by _bryan on Monday July 13, 2015 @09:33AM
(#9877950)
Well at least I'm ready for the all powerful Greek overlords who put their country into economic crisis so they could once again reclaim the long lost days of Zeus and other Greek gods.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by mhd on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:22AM
(#9877403)
"Varoufakis said that Schäuble, Germany’s finance minister and the architect of the deals Greece signed in 2010 and 2012, was “consistent throughout”. “His view was ‘I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous [Greek] government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything."
Well, Germany does know a little about bearing the debts of your predecessors on your shoulders.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by fit2rule on Monday July 13, 2015 @08:12AM
(#9877599)
Indeed Germanys' own attempts at managing the crippling debts imposed upon it, resulted in the Debt Relief it seems so disinclined to offer to others. Germany was once in Greeces' position - and would not have survived if it were not offered debt relief by the world - including Greece - when it needed it.
I find the duplicity in the public arguments rather distasteful. How easily the world forgets that Germany was once forgiven its debts.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by mhd on Monday July 13, 2015 @08:32AM
(#9877706)
I still don't see that as "in Greeces' position", unless you're really just focusing on the debt as a solitary data point without giving heed to the other circumstances. Bad loans and fiscal irresponsibility isn't really the same as the fallout from a war.
But that has been debated again and again before and is basically the center of the whole brouhaha: Germany's debtors back then thought that after the debt relief it would become financially stable on its own. And that doesn't seem to be the case now with Tsipras' Greece -- and Schäuble doesn't seem to be the only one with that opinion.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by fit2rule on Monday July 13, 2015 @11:41AM
(#9878809)
Germany had fought two wars and destroyed Europe. It did more damage to the world than Greece is doing - or has the potential to do - here and now. Bad loans and fiscal irresponsibility was very definitely a key factor in how Germany managed to get into that position - yet Germany was granted clemency and 50%+ of its debt was relieved. Its economy rebounded and it is now a major European power.
Why is this not good enough for the Greek people, who have not destroyed Europe in two major wars, have not enacted a hateful ideology across the lands? Certainly, there should be some 'punishment' for Greek fiscal dishonesty - certainly, there should be 'repercussions' for screwing around with the worlds' economy - but why do the punishments and repercussions not match the deed, relative to that granted the prosecutors of action (Germany) in this case?
The answer is: this is economic warfare. Germany is at it again, albeit this time with bad loans and unfair negotiation instead of blitzkrieg and racial cleansing. Much attention should be being paid to the un-yielding position of a country which should know better than to deny economic relief to a large citizenry who need it badly. This is, after all, the basis of Germanys' own "miraculous" recovery after it nearly destroyed the world.
Debt relief is the only answer, and in a just world - not one dominated and ruled by unelected authorities with illegal powers - this is what would be happening for the Greek people, and indeed all of Europe. But because people don't realize that Europe is ruled by an autocratic, fascist, unelected oligarchy, the correct action: letting the banks fail, and fail utterly - is not being done.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by jugad on Monday July 13, 2015 @05:32PM
(#9881271)
Fair enough.
Until when should Europe (Germany, France, etc) keep bailing out Greece. They did it for the last few years. The answer should not be "indefinitely". In fact, doing it more than 3 times is impossible... the trust is completely gone. After that, its just charity.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by fit2rule on Tuesday July 14, 2015 @01:27AM
(#9883044)
What does 'bailing out' mean to you - give Greece more loans? That is all that has happened - the hole was dug deeper. Debt relief is not the same thing.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 13, 2015 @03:10PM
(#9880310)
You wrote a long post in response to mhd, but you totally failed to address the point. To remind you:
> Germany's debtors back then thought that after the debt relief it would become financially stable on its own. And that doesn't seem to be the case now with Tsipras' Greece -- and Schäuble doesn't seem to be the only one with that opinion.
All this rhetoric about how evil Germany was in the wars (and, yes, they were), and how much damage they did (and, yes, they did) is not the point. Throwing around charges of economic warfare and claiming that "Germany is at it again" completely misses the point. Accusing Europe's leaders of being illegitimate and fascist misses the point. Once more, the point is this: If Greece were given the same help at this time, it seems very unlikely that Greece would become financially stable. The rest of Europe is unwilling to pay for what they perceive as low odds of success.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by atmosx on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:50AM
(#9877494)
Greetings from Greece,
You have to understand that Greece is a very young country between that west and the east that was never modernized to the core. Renaissance came in Europe when Greece was ruled by the Ottoman empire. Indeed the cultural impact of the Ottoman empire
is extremely strong here, although many people don’t realize it. The moment a government different from PASOK and ND came to power, was a pivotal moment in Greece’s “democratic” history (1974 and on). The population was ready for a change and tried to
remove from the government everything the two other parties resembled: corruption, clientellism and injustice. A lack of a justice estate is the biggest problem in Greece. There’s not even the hint of justice.
I voted for SYRIZA and I strongly supported the government until last Monday. After Varoufakis resignation I knew what to expect but did not wanted to believe that it was going to actually happen. Well it did in a spectacular way and I can’t stress how disappointed I feel.
No matter what Varoufakis says, SYRIZA lost the most important battle the first two months and that battle was with the local oligarchy. I will give you some prominent example of failure where it matters the most:
- Rena Dourou, the SYRIZA MP who turned Mayor of Athens right before SYRIZA came to power, signed a contract with SIEMENS[1]. As far as I’m concerned, she was bribed, exactly the same way PASOK and ND were bribed in the past by SIEMENS.
- Deputy Minister of Finance Nadia Valavani, announces that ship-owners won’t be taxes because if they do, they will change flag(!). That’s a spectacular U-Turn from a “left” government. Of course the statement did not hit the headlines in Greece because we occupy the 99th position at the Freedom press index.
- The first thing Minister Lafazanis did were raise the salary of our national power company called “DEI”. These guys (workers) get paid ~ 1.250 EUR, which is an extremely high salary for public workers. There are DOZENS of underpaid public servants. Hospitals are running out of syringes and cotton and this guy has the nerve to give a raise to an already highly paid group of people!!! The nerve!!!
- All main private TV stations and newspapers in Greece operate with heavy losses. They are subsidized by the state and owned by the oligarchs who effectively keep in the check the government by controlling the (mis)information. Not one of them was taxed in since January. This is something that should had been done in the first week of governance. Right away.
SYRIZA tried to compromise and turn into a new corrupted PASOK with everyone, but apparently everyone kept spitting them in the face: The local oligarchy and the Troika at the same time. But IMHO their major failure was the lack of will to tackle our local oligarchy and bring at least a glimpse of justice and equality to our country. And you can blame Germany all you want abroad, but there’s seriously no excuse for not taking action at home. NONE.
As far as the EU/ECB/IMF is concerned. Well, here Varoufakis is at fault: They SHOULD have prepare a Grexit, as smooth as possible, but they should be ready for a Grexit. They didn’t (both Varoufakis and Tsipras) even ALLOW the public conversation to dig on the topic! It was dismissed as soon as someone hinted the idea. That’s incredibly stupid from someone who is (because I believe he really is) as smart as Varoufakis.
The result is ridiculous, if not plainly tragic: We actually gave away sovereignty after holding a referendum. Tsipras probably expected the ‘YES’ vote to win by a large margin getting him effectively off the hook, but that did not happen and he found himself trapped because it’s crystal clear that at any cost he does not want to manage a GREXIT but he is totally unfit to manage a third ‘memoradum’ which involves selling national assets to the best offerer.
SYRIZA IMHO is politically dead. The entire Greek parliament is totally out of sync with the Greek society. I’m extremely concerned about what the future will bring for my country. If Golden Dawn’s percentages grow, I’ll have to leave the country because I can’t stand those people, but Greece today resemble very much pre-WW-2 Germany and the TROIKA resembles very much the winners of the first WW.
If you take anything from this long post is this: The Greeks, especially the young population, are ready to take any change that will made their life easier in the long term. But the troika has showed time and again that doesn’t care about the population. They need a country to blame, do business with our oligarchs, recycle money through our banks and that’s about it. The local oligarchs are even worse, so we’re caught between the hammer and the anvil and I see no way through.
I don’t know what to vote when the time comes, I don’t even know if I wanna keep following politics at home since everything seems so desperate. Oh, my prediction is that Germany’s obsessions are going to end the european project pretty soon. IMHO they already alienated far too many europeans and created a schism in Europe’s population. Now the European governments are all singing like a chorus but these governments in Portugal, Italy, Spain, Ireland, UK will IMHO soon be brought down.
Sorry for the long-long comment, farewell everyone!
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by sorincos on Monday July 13, 2015 @08:19AM
(#9877641)
That's the real tragedy in all this: not having any spark of hope. Unfortunately I'm not sure all the SYRIZA voters realize how bad they've been cheated. But that's history already. What from now? What can the humble Greek citizen hope, when all s/he gets from the leaders is finger-pointing but no real measures? I really hope the actual accord (for lack of anything else) will bring you some stability and you can find a party or something really representing the _working_ people and recognizing their needs, including the need to stick with the other Europeans. Yes, we'd very much like to keep you around, hopefully not with crooks as leaders (and only you alone can manage that).
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by _rpd on Monday July 13, 2015 @03:57PM
(#9880618)
What's more, the founding treaties of the EU make it illegal for one member state to assume the debts of another member state. And the "no bailout" clause was added exactly in response to Northern European concerns that they would eventually be responsible for the debt incurred by Southern Europe.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by kfk on Monday July 13, 2015 @06:42AM
(#9877289)
My guess as Italian leaving in Germany? They are the only ones who had some sense during all the European public spending madness of the last 20 years or so.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by honest_joe on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:30AM
(#9877434)
Its economy and the free trade. Central europe is flooded with crap made in germany,french,netherlands goods and companies. They are no the only one to blame but they used our fucked up corrupt mentality and own us now.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by rrss1122 on Monday July 13, 2015 @09:48AM
(#9878018)
There seems to be a lot of resentment against Germany lately.
To offer an analogy, I see similar resentment against parents among adult children who are forced to live home. Most often, those adult children got in over their heads on some kind of loan, most often student loans, and they need their parents to "bail" them out. They go back home and the parents then set conditions on them again on how they are to conduct their lives. The condition that gets the most resentment among adult children is control of the adult children's finances.
Germany is the parent, Greece is the adult child, and the rest of Europe are siblings who are turning a blind eye because they are either out in the world making it or because they also require their parent to bail them out.
It's an economic union. Germany's economy dominates the region, so of course it will dominate the union.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by korginator on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:39AM
(#9877461)
Well, let's see. Tax collections in Greece are at a little over 10% what's owed compared to 97.5% in Germany, deficit spending is astronomical, they have hardly any exports except for tomatoes and olives, have been using cheap credit to splurge for over a decade with no means of repaying their debts, and the so-called austerity was a farce in that it failed to achieve any significant improvement in their financial situation, or the goals they were meant to reach.
Greece was ranked the most corrupt nation in the EU. Greece has a thriving black economy which is unofficially at around 35% of the total economy. On top of that, Greece was understating their deficit figures for years. Their national debt stands at €340 billion today, give or take a few billion.
Interest rates for Greece hovered at around 18% before they had the Euro, and not many were willing to lend to them. Later, cheap abundant credit helped them increase state spending on pensions, jobs, and benefits, all with borrowed money, while barely being able to manage to pay the interest on their debts; this brought them great political mileage at the time.
Now that the payments are due, €45 billion has left Greece in Q1 of this year. On June 15 alone, banks saw cash outflows of €400 million - yes, that's in one day. Youth unemployment is at 50% and nearly a quarter of a million people have left Greece for good over the past five years.
Now most of the country is up for sale, right down to their public infrastructure, ports, and so on, with very few buyers.
Austerity amounts to little when the rot is systemic at this scale. Greece should have never been in the EU in the first place, and they would have retained the Drachma if they were truly interested in sustainable long term stability.
I feel for the Greek people, but a cheap bailout is absolutely not the solution to this problem today.
Greece was "set up"? Hardly. They set themselves up.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by dpark on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:56AM
(#9877516)
> Tax collections in Greece are at a little over 10% what's owed compared to 97.5% in Germany
This doesn't pass the sniff test. Greece has revenue around $120 billion. If they are only collecting 10% of owed taxes, that means they should be collecting $1.2 trillion, or about 5 times their GDP.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by dang on Monday July 13, 2015 @07:25PM
(#9881825)
We changed the title from 'Eurogroup “completely and utterly” controlled by Germany, Greece was “set up”' (<-- please do not editorialize in submission titles!) and changed the URL to the transcript of the interview.
Re:Yanis Varoufakis' first interview since resigning
by cjsthompson on Monday July 13, 2015 @11:21AM
(#9878653)
Plan for Greece :
1) overthrow parliamentary regime
2) set up a democracy ancient athens style
3) round up professional politicians of all stripes, capitalist thieves (pleonasm), media whores and economists and put them at work in labor camps.
4) tell troika that they can shove the debt up their arses
5) ban money (instead create a resource-based economy)
6) epic win
I don't understand why this is repeated again and again.
The reality has nothing to do with that. Greece has implemented austerity policies that no other country in Europe has implemented. Compared to the American big depression, they have lived for a longer period of time with worse economic conditions.
The recipes coming from the Troika has been implemented and the result is that they are in a deeper hole. So they say “now what?” and the answer is “keep digging”.
I am amazed how brainwashed is the public opinion.
And about where the money is going, I recommend reading this: http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/6013.html
Here's what is going to happen: Greece will exit the Euro, issue their own currency, and debase the Greek standard of living by a drastic amount. There is no other possible outcome than for Greece to reset its economy at a much lower basis.
It's the exact same outcome as further austerity, merely camouflaged by the lie of inflation.
If you say that, it looks like we are short of Euros. I would like to remember you that just now we are in the middle of:
"The European Central Bank launched its long-awaited bid to revitalise the eurozone economy and counter deflation with a €60bn-a-month bond-buying programme that was far larger than investors had expected. " ( http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/aedf6a66-a231-11e4-bbb8-00144... )
So, we are missing some political will here, not money.
"It's the exact same outcome as further austerity, merely camouflaged by the lie of inflation."
It's not. It's the same numbers but very different outcome for the people in the street that have very little blame in all this. But, if something have been proof in all this Greek tragedy is that nobody cares about the people in the street.
The other problem with Greece is that they're the sort of nation where you have a nationalized health care system but you need to bribe the doctor to get an appointment. (And private industry is also sclerotic and more about bribing the regulators than being able to compete.) Lying to the EU about budget deficits in the past should be seen in this context.
And the other problem with Greece is that they see Merkel in this negotiating group and think "Oh, the Germans want to occupy us again like in World War II." ANGELA MERKEL IS HITLER2.0! VOTE LEFTIST! RESIST THE REFORMS!
(and according to some reputable publications on the topic of international relations, like the Wall Street Journal, word on the street in Brussels is that a lot of these countries would be happier if Greece just walks away then if they accept bailout terms at this point, because they don't trust them to actually stick to the bailout terms.)
This considered bullshit by at least Hans-Werner-Sinn and Flassbeck - 2 economists that usually don't share a lot of opinions.
Also austeritiy didn't work and made things worse: http://www.interfluidity.com/uploads/2015/07/Greekovery.png
The new government wanted to change that.
Really? I'd complain quite a bit about a 25% GDP drop, regardless of whether it was "overinflated" to start with.
If that is the case, we can simply inflate it up and problem solved.
?
Public spending of GDP was 46.9% in 2008 and 49.3% in 2014.
Really, the brainwash is probably on the other side. Everybody talks about austerity, yet public spending has been growing steadily after WW II pretty much everywhere, even after 2008.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=greecegovspe&d1=200...
In what way do actual Euro amounts make comparisons impossible? I'd say Euro amounts are much clearer, because they tell you about government spending without conflating the economic state. GDP vs spending implies that spending hasn't dropped, when in fact it's actually dropped by something like 30% since 2008. The fact that the economy has also contracted drastically in that time doesn't mean spending wasn't cut.
> Second, the graph you linked shows similar level of spending as 2001 and I am not aware of any austerity claims during that year in Greece.
I'm at a loss for words here. This just makes no sense. By this logic, Greece can never implement austerity. No matter how deeply they cut, they'll never reach a level lower than the lowest point in history.
Further, assuming just 1% inflation per year, spending the same in 2015 as 2001 means an effective spending cut of 15%.
> Third, how much public spending do you want?
What I want isn't really relevant. The question was whether the Greek government has implemented the austerity measures they agreed to. Given the 30% contraction in spending, it seems like they certainly implemented some measures.
That's the theory. The theory could be stupid if too much government debt is what caused the downturn in the first place.
And the theory usually breaks in this way: There is a downturn. The government spends more. The economy picks back up eventually. The government continues to spend more. That means, to have any effect, at the next downturn, the government has to spend even more. And that eventually gets you to the situation stated in the previous paragraph.
And let's be realistic, Greece is like Italy. An enormous proportion of the public spending goes to pay privileges (pensions that are too high, useless public jobs, useless buildings, etc.), do you really think that money will grow the economy? Don't you think it creates much more value if left to the private sector? Of course, you need a real private sector, with clear rules for everybody, and that's exactly what they don't want to do! You see the problem here?
Most Eurozone economies are dependent on growth in government spending to generate GDP growth. With slow government spending expansion, GDP growth in the Eurozone fell to basically zero for seven years. Panic sets in when they can't expand government spending, because everything else is so dependent on it.
Italy is a massively different country from Greece, so this is not as obvious as you seem to consider it.
This is extremely arrogant and has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the issue.
However, I see nothing arrogant for his country citizens (who pay his salary) to expect of the highest-level official of a EU country to have such basic skills as speaking English.
Here's from the source, which is as official as it gets: http://ec.europa.eu/languages/policy/linguistic-diversity/of...
In reality, English is being used, as it is everywhere else in the world whenever you need to talk to people from other countries.
Evidence: http://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2014/may/21/eu...
I agree that there should be a way for countries to leave the Eurozone. Also, at least one of two things need to happen:
- introduce a cap on borrowing (during boom periods), so that countries can't get themselves into excessive debt.
- create a bailout fund so that countries that mess up can be helped back on their feet.
> we will be able to leave the loss to the private sector and not to the tax payers
You're aware that the first bailout moved the losses from predatory lending from the private sector to the European taxpayer, aren't you? The entire story of the last five years is that the regular people are getting punished and the institutions get bailed out.
1. You believe in Europe. You understand there are faults in the Euro design that bring to this situation. You try to fix the problem with the minimum of suffering of European citizens.
2. You don't care about "Europe" you only want your money back: If this is the case, you should implement some kind of agreement that leave the debtors to recover enough to pay something.
Nothing of that is happening.
What is going on is that I, a European citizen, give public money from my taxes to the Greek government so he can repair private debts to French and German banks and now that they are free of the mess, we are going to destroy the Greek economy because..
well because they are lazy and they really deserve it. Who cares if we don't get the money back. At least they will learn a lesson.
Oh yes, and they should privatize everything, stop collective bargaining and put their assets under German control.
I don't trust those guys neither, but, maybe we are not talking about the same guys.
- Why is Tsipras ignoring the people?
- Why do people think the Greek government didn't have the choice (eg '#thisisacoup' on Twitter)? Just because it's a difficult choice doesn't mean the choice didn't exist.
2. #thisisacoup refers to the offer made. Offering a country to give up sovereignty is a coup, pretty much. It goes against all democratic principles Europe was founded on. The alternative (grexit) is impossible without support from ECB/IMF to prevent a complete collapse of the financial system. Tsipras didn't prepare for this plan B. So Germany made Greece "an offer they couldn't refuse": Greece has 72 hours to implement all sorts of laws or face utter destruction.
Related: Why didn’t Greece implement some reforms already? Everywhere it seems to be a common understanding that reforms are only going to be implemented in return for more money. However, it is fairly obvious that it is in the country’s best interest to e.g. tackle its tax-collection problem regardless of whether or not new euros arrive. Why then does northern Europe have to insist on (among others) this reform and offer an incentive in the form of new credits to have it implemented? Can we go to Greece next week and say “Unless you pay us 80 billion over the next 3 years, we’re going to stop collecting taxes and face ‘utter destruction’!”? Can we then continue and blame them for staging a coup when they insist they’ll only pay those billions if we, in fact, do continue to collect taxes?
> Greece faces [utter destruction] solely due to Greek overspending and irresponsibility
Not true. Have you been following the discussion? It's a multifaceted problem. One huge aspect is that the production in Greece can't compete with production in northern Europe. Besides, moral grandstanding doesn't solve anything. Bad policy just makes the situation in Greece worse. So we shouldn't do that. Punishing people for the mistakes of their government is cruel and pointless.
> What Germany offered was help under the condition that Greece stops killing itself.
Unfortunately, nope. Germany offered more debt to a country already in debt, and demanded the sort of reform that damages the already deeply depressed economy. It's not help if it's not helping.
> Related: Why didn’t Greece implement some reforms already?
Because Germany forbade it. Syriza wanted to raise taxes and take on tax evaders ages ago. Germany said no, because that would be "unilateral action" and would lead to even greater hostility. Did you follow the crisis at all?
Then don't take it.
I think it's really that simple. If Germany's offer (and everyone else's, but the focus seems to be on Germany) is so horrible, then don't take it.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but... words fail me.
I think that was the meeting all about: They told Tsipras that he either sign a deal or face oblivion one way or another.
Greece had no real allies.
The people in Greece made a choice last week and are ready to make many difficult choices. The problem is that we (me and other citizens) are caught between the hammer and the anvil, on one side we have Europeans who don't care and on the other a corrupted government who doesn't want to take on anyone, oligarchs (ship-owners, tax-evaders, etc.). See my other comment above for details. (to be posted in a while).
So because you don’t want to fix your government and continue the oligarchic corruption, the rest of Europe must pay? Please explain why Germany should continue to pour money into Greece if, after five years of known problems, there are still oligarchs and tax evaders there.
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Christoforakos#Auslief...
Unfortunately there are also lots of us, including our government, that like to pretend that our country is better and doesn't do the same kind of corruption like most Mediterranean countries.
Like the Porto mayor yesterday stated, pretending that we are the most well behaved poor in poor's street.
Not now, but they'll have plenty soon, after this German farce. Podemus will win in Spain, the PS on Portugal and let's see what will happen in Italy.
Who wants to be a cheerleader for the EU after all this? This crisis has cast a pall over the whole European project. It's shown that the odious, un-caring, self-centred politics we all despise in our national politics is just as rampant and alive in the heart of European Union politics.
You may want to consider your own pension. If you are about to say that it's with a private bank and thus safe, you may want to look up Cyprus and what happened there.
Make no mistake : the price of your convenience now is being destitute and even hungry if you don't own a house when you lose your job above age 50 or so. Nobody's hiring >50s anywhere after all. That's somewhere between 10 and 30 YEARS you'll spend as a beggar, once you're not capable of working anymore.
Still sound like a bargain ?
And less accountable.
It's almost comical.
Well, Germany does know a little about bearing the debts of your predecessors on your shoulders.
I find the duplicity in the public arguments rather distasteful. How easily the world forgets that Germany was once forgiven its debts.
But that has been debated again and again before and is basically the center of the whole brouhaha: Germany's debtors back then thought that after the debt relief it would become financially stable on its own. And that doesn't seem to be the case now with Tsipras' Greece -- and Schäuble doesn't seem to be the only one with that opinion.
Why is this not good enough for the Greek people, who have not destroyed Europe in two major wars, have not enacted a hateful ideology across the lands? Certainly, there should be some 'punishment' for Greek fiscal dishonesty - certainly, there should be 'repercussions' for screwing around with the worlds' economy - but why do the punishments and repercussions not match the deed, relative to that granted the prosecutors of action (Germany) in this case?
The answer is: this is economic warfare. Germany is at it again, albeit this time with bad loans and unfair negotiation instead of blitzkrieg and racial cleansing. Much attention should be being paid to the un-yielding position of a country which should know better than to deny economic relief to a large citizenry who need it badly. This is, after all, the basis of Germanys' own "miraculous" recovery after it nearly destroyed the world.
Debt relief is the only answer, and in a just world - not one dominated and ruled by unelected authorities with illegal powers - this is what would be happening for the Greek people, and indeed all of Europe. But because people don't realize that Europe is ruled by an autocratic, fascist, unelected oligarchy, the correct action: letting the banks fail, and fail utterly - is not being done.
Until when should Europe (Germany, France, etc) keep bailing out Greece. They did it for the last few years. The answer should not be "indefinitely". In fact, doing it more than 3 times is impossible... the trust is completely gone. After that, its just charity.
> Germany's debtors back then thought that after the debt relief it would become financially stable on its own. And that doesn't seem to be the case now with Tsipras' Greece -- and Schäuble doesn't seem to be the only one with that opinion.
All this rhetoric about how evil Germany was in the wars (and, yes, they were), and how much damage they did (and, yes, they did) is not the point. Throwing around charges of economic warfare and claiming that "Germany is at it again" completely misses the point. Accusing Europe's leaders of being illegitimate and fascist misses the point. Once more, the point is this: If Greece were given the same help at this time, it seems very unlikely that Greece would become financially stable. The rest of Europe is unwilling to pay for what they perceive as low odds of success.
Above title is not title of the article. Mods please change?
You have to understand that Greece is a very young country between that west and the east that was never modernized to the core. Renaissance came in Europe when Greece was ruled by the Ottoman empire. Indeed the cultural impact of the Ottoman empire is extremely strong here, although many people don’t realize it. The moment a government different from PASOK and ND came to power, was a pivotal moment in Greece’s “democratic” history (1974 and on). The population was ready for a change and tried to remove from the government everything the two other parties resembled: corruption, clientellism and injustice. A lack of a justice estate is the biggest problem in Greece. There’s not even the hint of justice.
I voted for SYRIZA and I strongly supported the government until last Monday. After Varoufakis resignation I knew what to expect but did not wanted to believe that it was going to actually happen. Well it did in a spectacular way and I can’t stress how disappointed I feel. No matter what Varoufakis says, SYRIZA lost the most important battle the first two months and that battle was with the local oligarchy. I will give you some prominent example of failure where it matters the most:
- Rena Dourou, the SYRIZA MP who turned Mayor of Athens right before SYRIZA came to power, signed a contract with SIEMENS[1]. As far as I’m concerned, she was bribed, exactly the same way PASOK and ND were bribed in the past by SIEMENS.
- Deputy Minister of Finance Nadia Valavani, announces that ship-owners won’t be taxes because if they do, they will change flag(!). That’s a spectacular U-Turn from a “left” government. Of course the statement did not hit the headlines in Greece because we occupy the 99th position at the Freedom press index.
- The first thing Minister Lafazanis did were raise the salary of our national power company called “DEI”. These guys (workers) get paid ~ 1.250 EUR, which is an extremely high salary for public workers. There are DOZENS of underpaid public servants. Hospitals are running out of syringes and cotton and this guy has the nerve to give a raise to an already highly paid group of people!!! The nerve!!!
- All main private TV stations and newspapers in Greece operate with heavy losses. They are subsidized by the state and owned by the oligarchs who effectively keep in the check the government by controlling the (mis)information. Not one of them was taxed in since January. This is something that should had been done in the first week of governance. Right away.
SYRIZA tried to compromise and turn into a new corrupted PASOK with everyone, but apparently everyone kept spitting them in the face: The local oligarchy and the Troika at the same time. But IMHO their major failure was the lack of will to tackle our local oligarchy and bring at least a glimpse of justice and equality to our country. And you can blame Germany all you want abroad, but there’s seriously no excuse for not taking action at home. NONE.
As far as the EU/ECB/IMF is concerned. Well, here Varoufakis is at fault: They SHOULD have prepare a Grexit, as smooth as possible, but they should be ready for a Grexit. They didn’t (both Varoufakis and Tsipras) even ALLOW the public conversation to dig on the topic! It was dismissed as soon as someone hinted the idea. That’s incredibly stupid from someone who is (because I believe he really is) as smart as Varoufakis.
The result is ridiculous, if not plainly tragic: We actually gave away sovereignty after holding a referendum. Tsipras probably expected the ‘YES’ vote to win by a large margin getting him effectively off the hook, but that did not happen and he found himself trapped because it’s crystal clear that at any cost he does not want to manage a GREXIT but he is totally unfit to manage a third ‘memoradum’ which involves selling national assets to the best offerer.
SYRIZA IMHO is politically dead. The entire Greek parliament is totally out of sync with the Greek society. I’m extremely concerned about what the future will bring for my country. If Golden Dawn’s percentages grow, I’ll have to leave the country because I can’t stand those people, but Greece today resemble very much pre-WW-2 Germany and the TROIKA resembles very much the winners of the first WW.
If you take anything from this long post is this: The Greeks, especially the young population, are ready to take any change that will made their life easier in the long term. But the troika has showed time and again that doesn’t care about the population. They need a country to blame, do business with our oligarchs, recycle money through our banks and that’s about it. The local oligarchs are even worse, so we’re caught between the hammer and the anvil and I see no way through.
I don’t know what to vote when the time comes, I don’t even know if I wanna keep following politics at home since everything seems so desperate. Oh, my prediction is that Germany’s obsessions are going to end the european project pretty soon. IMHO they already alienated far too many europeans and created a schism in Europe’s population. Now the European governments are all singing like a chorus but these governments in Portugal, Italy, Spain, Ireland, UK will IMHO soon be brought down.
Sorry for the long-long comment, farewell everyone!
[1] http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_09/03/201...
http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-has-a-lot-to-lose-in-a-g...
http://www.cfr.org/world/eurozone-crisis-historical-legacy/p...
To offer an analogy, I see similar resentment against parents among adult children who are forced to live home. Most often, those adult children got in over their heads on some kind of loan, most often student loans, and they need their parents to "bail" them out. They go back home and the parents then set conditions on them again on how they are to conduct their lives. The condition that gets the most resentment among adult children is control of the adult children's finances.
Germany is the parent, Greece is the adult child, and the rest of Europe are siblings who are turning a blind eye because they are either out in the world making it or because they also require their parent to bail them out.
It's an economic union. Germany's economy dominates the region, so of course it will dominate the union.
Greece was ranked the most corrupt nation in the EU. Greece has a thriving black economy which is unofficially at around 35% of the total economy. On top of that, Greece was understating their deficit figures for years. Their national debt stands at €340 billion today, give or take a few billion.
Interest rates for Greece hovered at around 18% before they had the Euro, and not many were willing to lend to them. Later, cheap abundant credit helped them increase state spending on pensions, jobs, and benefits, all with borrowed money, while barely being able to manage to pay the interest on their debts; this brought them great political mileage at the time.
Now that the payments are due, €45 billion has left Greece in Q1 of this year. On June 15 alone, banks saw cash outflows of €400 million - yes, that's in one day. Youth unemployment is at 50% and nearly a quarter of a million people have left Greece for good over the past five years.
Now most of the country is up for sale, right down to their public infrastructure, ports, and so on, with very few buyers.
Austerity amounts to little when the rot is systemic at this scale. Greece should have never been in the EU in the first place, and they would have retained the Drachma if they were truly interested in sustainable long term stability.
I feel for the Greek people, but a cheap bailout is absolutely not the solution to this problem today.
Greece was "set up"? Hardly. They set themselves up.
This doesn't pass the sniff test. Greece has revenue around $120 billion. If they are only collecting 10% of owed taxes, that means they should be collecting $1.2 trillion, or about 5 times their GDP.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
Not even slightly true.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33479946
Greece needs a Marshall Plan, but it was given is a "diktat of Versailles" just because Germany didn't like our government.
Thanks for the solidarity.
1) overthrow parliamentary regime 2) set up a democracy ancient athens style 3) round up professional politicians of all stripes, capitalist thieves (pleonasm), media whores and economists and put them at work in labor camps. 4) tell troika that they can shove the debt up their arses 5) ban money (instead create a resource-based economy) 6) epic win