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Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by dm2 on Sunday May 31, 2015 @10:44PM (#9636556)
"permit authorities to target "lone wolf" suspects with no connection to specific terrorist groups, and make it easier to seize personal and business records of suspects and their associates"

If I search lots of technology and military related topics, or do any system-admin work, or use any privacy-enabling services (VPN / TOR), then my friends/family/associates and myself would likely fall under those categories.

My concern is there should be a data-retention policy due to constantly changing laws.

If 20 years from now I want to run for president, then all it would take is to search for records in one of the many caches of NSA collected data that other agency, state, local, and even foreign law-enforcement have collected over the years. That would allow a large number of people to have the power to easily find something that would distract me enough to pull me out of the race, such as inappropriate text-messages/emails that a cheating spouse sent in the past.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by pvg on Monday June 01, 2015 @01:28AM (#9636929)
Even when the president was an outright crook and used some of the machinery of state (and some other outright crooks) to dig for dirt on his opponents, he wasn't able to accomplish this through the national security services. Oh and he got caught and forced to resign.

There are many good reasons to be concerned about surveillance, privacy, data gathering, etc. Your future presidential campaign is almost certainly not among them.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by mapt on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:13AM (#9637006)
Deliberately missing the issue. Forget his future presidential campaign.

How about every future presidential candidate? The existence of a panopticon corpus of information on them which is only accessible to a certain group, grants power over them to that group. In the Internet age, the NSA's policy of tracking everyone is functionally vetting and accumulating blackmail material not just on presidential candidates (where our scrutiny veers towards the ridiculous), but on anyone who ever wants to enter into any position of power. No human being, much less human organizations, could remain uncorrupted by that level of influence over power for any duration of time.

If these policies are not changed, eventually it takes almost negligible amounts of misuse before the NSA or parties within the NSA are quite literally running the country & the world. It takes perhaps a solitary bad actor in the organization with this level of information to merely tip the balance in favor of bureaucratic survival, shift one election or pop an adultery scandal in the way of one board member on one telco. It would require a fanatical level of self-scrutiny and belief in the norms of liberal democracy to self-police against these durable incentives, and obviously that doesn't exist.

Maybe having access to everyone's Instagram account and Google search history doesn't immediately sway the balance of power in 2001, but every year that our country doesn't cut out this brain tumor, it gains more power over us; Our odds of retaining some semblance of control over this organization drop. Quite soon, there won't be any technology-phobic individuals left in our positions of leadership. That day, control over this corpus of information will become a fulcrum that can move mountains.

In writing _1984_, contra to many interpretations, Orwell wasn't afraid of the concept of tyranny. We have had many tyrannical governments before, and documented their rise and fall. He was terrified of the singular notion that the novel power of technology and panopticon surveillance, might create a powerbase which was functionally immortal, a tyranny that could never fall to dissenting calls for change; That maybe technology had made the power of 'dissent' obsolete. If that comes true, we lose the power of self-determination forever.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by baddox on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:51AM (#9637068)
Is it still considered too tinfoily to believe that presidential (and indeed party primary) candidates are already thoroughly vetted by powerful people long before any ostensibly democratic process is allowed to take place?
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by CaptainZapp on Monday June 01, 2015 @05:35AM (#9637507)
Uhhh, What about, for example, Sarah Palin?
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by talmand on Monday June 01, 2015 @09:37AM (#9638403)
What about Sarah Palin?
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by Cthulhu_ on Monday June 01, 2015 @05:29AM (#9637491)
Nah, that's a fact - the two parties' leaderships determine who gets to run for president. Same with every other political party everywhere really.
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by logfromblammo on Monday June 01, 2015 @12:05PM (#9639717)
All I can say is that Dubya Bush is lucky he went to school before Facebook and Twitter existed. Even so, some of those party photos still made it out to the public.

The same goes for Bill "didn't inhale" Clinton.

My imaginary black-hat that hangs out on my shoulder whispers into my ear that part of the political vetting process is now either finding and securing the existing blackmail material or manufacturing some via tricks and traps. Anyone who does not have a readily-pulled lever is prevented from appearing in the news cycle, or simply libeled and slandered.

My imaginary white-hat says that virtuous folk simply choose not to dirty their hands with politics. A person who does not compromise his principles cannot compromise enough to be effective in the halls of power.

I think they may both be right.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by pvg on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:42AM (#9637059)
Calling the issue misinformed, ahistorical and overwrought is not missing the issue, it's just calling it that. Instead of reading and citing Orwell, read Bamford. You'll find a history of US security and law-enforcement agencies engaging in things far more illegal than anything that's come to light in Snowden's disclosures.

You'd be hard-pressed to find among them illegal activity directed at suppressing mainstream political opposition. That would be the kiss of death for any such service.

It isn't that these things are not terrible or worthy of scrutiny, opprobrium, or if you prefer, outrage. Suggesting that Western liberal democracy is somehow in unique peril because of them or 'because internet' is, and I'll say it again, silly. Western liberal democracy has easily survived a lot worse.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by hackinthebochs on Monday June 01, 2015 @03:24AM (#9637154)
> Suggesting that Western liberal democracy is somehow in unique peril because of them or 'because internet' is, and I'll say it again, silly.

Wrong. Nothing in history has approached the ubiquity and scale of control that the currently forming surveillance machine is capable of. And yes, all of this 'because internet'. Your comparisons are moot against this distinction.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by mapt on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:59AM (#9637088)
I would press Bamford into service as a proof, not a disproof, of my point.

How far do you think COINTELPRO might have gone if the FBI had been able to record every piece of mail, every conversation, had been able to lean on members of the press or members of the Church Committee with pre-recorded leverage, knowledge of every single questionable thing they'd done or said in 'private' all the way back to their childhood?

----

On August 17, 1975 Senator Frank Church stated on NBC's Meet the Press without mentioning the name of the NSA about this agency:

“ In the need to develop a capacity to know what potential enemies are doing, the United States government has perfected a technological capability that enables us to monitor the messages that go through the air. Now, that is necessary and important to the United States as we look abroad at enemies or potential enemies. We must know, at the same time, that capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left such is the capability to monitor everything—telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn't matter. There would be no place to hide.

If this government ever became a tyrant, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.[9][10] "

----

The power we have handed these people is becoming orders of magnitude more extreme than the power it was technologically practical for an organization to attain in that era. That power is going to grow as time goes on.

The danger is not that the NSA deploys hundreds of thousands of spies to inform on and suppress mainstream political opposition, the danger is that they don't have to, to exert effective control. We're going to need something stronger, not weaker, than the reforms implemented then, to be a durable deterrent to more severe abuses in the future.

"Information wants to be free", said they. But that's not the case. The core of the idea is that information provides an incentive to everyone with access to that information, to use it. The greater the pile of information, the stronger the draw becomes. Eventually the amount of power concentrated in that information will corrupt whatever organizational structure we surround it with, so long as we permit it to be gathered in one place.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by cm2187 on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:57AM (#9637080)
What about J.E. Hoover?

Outside the US, the examples of these abuse are numerous. Probably the most spectacular was Francois Mitterrand in France, who was wire tapping his political opponents and some other "persons of interest" (famous actress). And by using anti-terrorist powers by the way!

And having this power is not only open for abuse from the President. Lots of people in the chain of command will probably abuse it. It will also be open for abuse by law. You don't know what is OK today but will be inappropriate or illegal in 20 years.

All of this has nothing to do with the US but with human nature. The reality of any large society is that you have a portion of the population who are crooks, bullies, rapists, egomaniacs, corrupt, etc. Designing a system that relies on everyone now and forever to be honest is bound to fail. This is why the US constitution introduced so many checks and balances. And one fundamental check and balance is to limit the power of the state. And the state having so much information on its citizens, on everything anyone says to anyone, on where anyone is at any given time, on who talks to who, on who reads what is way way too much power.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by pvg on Monday June 01, 2015 @04:59AM (#9637407)
We're talking about the US, right? And what, specifically, about J.E. Hoover? We're probably not going to argue that he was a bad guy. Whose presidential nomination or campaign did J.E. Hoover derail? And again, let's stipulate that this was a terrible, autocratic person who abused his decades-long position in office.
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by pjc50 on Monday June 01, 2015 @05:23AM (#9637473)
Not a presidential campaign, but Hoover was really not keen on MLK and spent a lot of effort attacking the civil rights campaign: http://time.com/3582004/fbi-letter-hoover-mlk/
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by cm2187 on Monday June 01, 2015 @05:36AM (#9637509)
He was also known for having files on every politicians and blackmailing them if we believe his biopics!
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by hackinthebochs on Monday June 01, 2015 @01:55AM (#9636972)
You're kidding right? Are you actually implying the scale of information gathered in the Nixon era is anywhere comparable to what is possible now?
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by pvg on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:07AM (#9636993)
Are you actually implying that information gathered by security services has been used to derail someone's presidential campaign, even in the era of the worst of such abuses? Because that's what the OP is worried about, ostensibly. And it's silly.
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by hackinthebochs on Monday June 01, 2015 @03:16AM (#9637126)
These sorts of comments absolutely infuriate me. Just because we can't point to an instance where we know someone's presidential campaign has been thwarted doesn't mean we should ignore the possibility. If you wait for proof of malfeasance before taking a stand you are by definition always playing catch-up and praying for the next Snowden to bring you up to speed.

The only way to prevent tragic abuses of power is to be proactive. We cannot wait for abuses to occur, we must be constantly vigilant in recognizing potential abuses and stopping them before they occur (just imagine how effective network security would be if it were entirely reactive instead of proactive).

The world got a wake-up call with the Snowden revelations. But anyone with some technical know-how and foresight knew much of what he revealed was happening already (although I'm sure even the most forward thinking technologist was surprised at some of the revelations). I would hope the era of "but where's the proof" would be over when it comes to protecting ourselves from oppressive surveillance powers.

The only way to secure this country from domestic enemies in perpetuity is to make sure such detrimental abuses cannot occur, ever. Waiting until proof is revealed is far too late. And absolutely never trust anyone with unchecked power.

Your argument is also brain-dead in that the amount of information available was minuscule compared to now (thus avenues for abuse and relevant information was proportionately minuscule). The fact that it didn't happen in the era of the largest (known) abuses says absolutely nothing about the likelihood of it happening going forward.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by Karunamon on Monday June 01, 2015 @01:55PM (#9640721)
If you wait for proof of malfeasance before taking a stand you are by definition always playing catch-up

And if you string together conspiracies without a shred of evidence to support them, you are by definition making shit up whole cloth. This puts you in the same irrational company as Alex Jones, Art Bell, etc , etc.

The existence of bad actors absolutely does not mean that we abandon all critical thinking and logic and rationality. There is precisely as much evidence that the NSA is blackmailing presidential candidates as there is evidence that there is a camera in my underwear drawer or that chemtrails exist.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by hackinthebochs on Monday June 01, 2015 @05:13PM (#9642199)
>The existence of bad actors absolutely does not mean that we abandon all critical thinking and logic and rationality.

Rationality is not equivalent to empiricism, as you seem to be implying.

>There is precisely as much evidence that the NSA is blackmailing presidential candidates as there is evidence that there is a camera in my underwear drawer or that chemtrails exist.

But the plausibility of the two are incomparable. Given what we know about human nature and the information available, and the abuses already made public, it is a legitimate fear. This combined with the immense gravity of such abuses, a rational consideration of the facts indicates that we take proactive measures to prevent it.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by Karunamon on Monday June 01, 2015 @07:49PM (#9642987)
Let's take this out to its logical conclusion.

You say chemtrails are implausible? We already know that the TLA's have experimented with mind control agents, ala MKULTRA (though under different circumstances) and probably other still-secret programs, so using the rubric you just described, chemtrails are also a legitimate fear.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by hackinthebochs on Monday June 01, 2015 @09:02PM (#9643217)
Not really. Think of it in terms of the number of assumptions necessary for each scenario to be true. For the case of spying, the only assumption necessary is that there will eventually be a confluence of opportunity for malfeasance and someone inclined towards unethical behavior. What is the probability that these two events occur simultaneously eventually? Very high indeed. A highly plausible scenario would be simply an analyst looking up information against a political candidate they don't like and leaking personal information they find to sink a campaign. The fact that analysts have spied on romantic interests shows that opportunity and disposition has already occurred. The plausible scenarios only get more sinister from there.

When it comes to chemtrails, a whole string of highly improbable assumptions are necessary for it to be true. The probability of these two cases are not comparable.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by dm2 on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @12:01AM (#9643764)
Technically we do release silver iodine (and other stuff) into clouds for weather modification. So there is some fact in the idea, but passenger aircraft are not actively spreading anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding

The only reason the US doesn't use weather modification in war is because of signed international treaties.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by pvg on Monday June 01, 2015 @04:56AM (#9637397)
These sorts of comments absolutely infuriate me

Clearly, but the fact they infuriate you doesn't change my rebuttal of the OP's point. Which you still haven't addressed, short of telling me how it infuriates you. I understand you're infuriated.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by uptown on Monday June 01, 2015 @08:28AM (#9638013)
Eliot Spitzer absolutely had Presidential ambitions, and certainly had ambitions for other elected office for positions other than the Presidency. He resigned as governor, and likely derailed any hope for future political office.

"The investigation of Spitzer was reportedly initiated after North Fork Bank reported suspicious transactions to the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network as required by the Bank Secrecy Act, which was enhanced by Patriot Act provisions, enacted to combat terrorist activity such as money-laundering."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer_prostitution_scan...

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by jkestner on Monday June 01, 2015 @08:55AM (#9638153)
"enhanced", now there's a flag word.

When the law was "enacted to combat terrorist activity", how do you prevent it from being turned on any crime?

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by dm2 on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:21AM (#9637020)
Replace "president" with any political position, even ones outside of the US.

I'm not actually worried about MY presidential campaign. But if there is a close race, there is always the "we have the candidates ebay/amazon browsing history from 2009" or "those text messages he/she sent to their secretary" option that could dramatically change history.

The potential for abuse is too great to not have limits on data-retention.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by psykovsky on Monday June 01, 2015 @05:32AM (#9637497)
If a sperm tainted dress stored on a closet for a couple years can do a lot of damage, imagine a full-take database stored for a couple decades or maybe even a couple centuries.
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by danenania on Monday June 01, 2015 @03:00AM (#9637090)
How would anyone know if they had done so? The point is they CAN exercise this kind of power, and they can do so in ways that can't be traced back to them. So who knows if they've done it? Who knows if they will? The fact that they could is the problem. Even that shadowy hypothetical threat gives them enormous (anti-democratic) power.
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by vidarh on Monday June 01, 2015 @05:57AM (#9637563)
In fact, the very possibility will presumably weight upon anyone considering a political career, and as such these powers will likely have an effect whether or not they are actually used.
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by spacemanmatt on Monday June 01, 2015 @05:21AM (#9637469)
You speak as if the problem is that it could be the security apparatus has been abused, but we don't have any evidence this has happened.

The problem is we cannot be sure exactly when it has been abused. It's only fair to presume our our corrupt system does not use the NSA ethically.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by sparaker on Monday June 01, 2015 @01:54AM (#9636971)
Keeping a log for 20 years for each and every person is practically impossible at the moment, regardless of how advanced you think to seem technology is. Storage is not free and i think its stupid to keep tracking everything without a reason. If you keep logging on everything in the hopes that you may find a connection or something of that sort in the future, you'll need a lot more people to go through that sort of stuff to begin with.
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by tdicola on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:04AM (#9636984)
Don't underestimate how deep the pockets are of government defense funds. The NSA has a gigantic datacenter in Utah that's estimated to be storing data on the exabyte order of magnitude (thousands of petabytes). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

edit: Even if they only have 1 exabyte of storage, that's enough to keep 3.3 gigabytes of data for every single person in America (~300 million). I would wager that's more than enough to store the text from everyone's email for many years.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by vidarh on Monday June 01, 2015 @06:12AM (#9637592)
In fact, 3.3GB is also enough to store about 4 hours worth of speech recordings per day for a year for every single person using the best available compression. Double that since you don't need both sides of the call, and consider that the average amount of time spent on the phone is substantially less than 8h, and they can already store full voice for all US calls for many years in an exabyte.

Given that the 1 exabyte is a low order estimate given the size of the Utah data centre, you have to wonder just exactly what they are actually storing or planning to store there. If someone had access to it (and I'm not saying I think the NSA do), the site is physically big enough that you could fit sufficient storage to keep years worth of voice recordings of the total global phone call volume.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by filoeleven on Monday June 01, 2015 @11:55AM (#9639606)
It is also known that NSA uses speech-recognition software, making voice recordings easily searchable.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/05/nsa-speech-rec...

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by dm2 on Monday June 01, 2015 @03:12AM (#9637115)
IBM offers 5.5 PB of storage in a 10 square-foot space.

http://www.ibm.com/systems/storage/tape/ts4500/index.html

The Utah Data Center has at least 100,000 square-feet of data center space. If just half of that space was used for storage then it would be over 27 exabytes worth of storage assuming a density similar to what IBM offers.

Backblaze on the other hand has their Storage Pod 4.5 which can hold up to 270 GB of storage for less than $20,000. https://www.backblaze.com/blog/storage-pod-4-5-tweaking-a-pr...

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by jrs235 on Monday June 01, 2015 @07:32AM (#9637824)
I'm not sure where you got 270 GB. The article you reference states 180 TB.

Which, according to the article runs less than $10000 (180 TB * 1000 GB/TB * .048 $/GB = $8640 )

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by dm2 on Monday June 01, 2015 @07:39AM (#9637853)
180 TB is using 4 TB drives.

270 TB is using 6 TB drives.

Backblaze uses 4 TB drives because of the increased costs and failure rates of the 6 TB drives.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/bl...

(270 TB * 1000 GB/TB * .051 $/GB = $13770 )

My original estimate of $20,000 was just a rough estimate that added some padding for overhead and accessories.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by jrs235 on Monday June 01, 2015 @07:51AM (#9637888)
That makes sense (180 vs 270) and then GB was just a typo. Thanks for clarifying.
Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by JoshTriplett on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:07AM (#9636992)
> Storage is not free

No, but you're paying the bill for your own tracking. Much easier to spend other people's money.

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by EdSharkey on Monday June 01, 2015 @02:05AM (#9636985)
You're wrong, storage is cheap and reliable; every electronic communication and signal you generated was recorded and indexed on your true name, even the stuff you thought was anonymous.

Right now, that recorder is temporarily paused for the most part.

Which one of us is right?

Re:Section 215 Expires For Now by cm2187 on Monday June 01, 2015 @03:20AM (#9637144)
An 8TB hard drive costs about $300. I wouldn't be surprised if the log of all the phone calls (metadata) of the US over a year would fit on one or two of these drives.