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Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by geofft on Saturday February 07, 2015 @01:25AM (#9013273)
One thing to note is that (last I heard) both Chrome and Firefox sandbox EME modules fairly tightly. Flash is a browser plugin, which means that it usually injects code into the browser itself, and runs with full privileges on your computer, just as much as your browser does. This is what makes Flash such fertile ground for exploits of all kinds, and also makes it bad for your privacy because it has direct access to your webcam, microphone, clipboard, supercookies, etc. — anything the browser can do, Flash can do without asking. If it asks, it's out of the kindness of its heart, not because the browser has any say.

Chrome and Firefox's sandboxes, meanwhile, are both open-source. You can inspect what powers the EME module might possibly have, and know that it can't gain any more. A vulnerability in the code is unlikely to be able to do anything other than pirate your download of Game of Thrones — and that's assuming it even has general-purpose network access. Ideally, a vulnerability would be able to do nothing other than modify the video you see, but the remote site could achieve that by encoding a modified video in the first place.

As far as the general moral arguments about DRM go, it's true that the new boss is the same as the old boss. But the bulk of the EFF's argument against Flash in this blog post is about security, not about open content, and it's important to acknowledge that EME is a significant step forward. The new boss is sitting in a tightly locked cage.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by zobzu on Saturday February 07, 2015 @03:14AM (#9013444)
Its more about freedom than security tho. Really if anything, EME is about security for vendors, not users. Really, not much to do with the fact that it's sandboxed. Its not like if proprietary, freedom-restricting software was suddenly ok because there's some kind of a sandbox around it.. as if the only issue with these was that they're poorly coded and supported.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by geofft on Saturday February 07, 2015 @02:28PM (#9015035)
> Really if anything, EME is about security for vendors, not users.

EME as originally conceived is about security for vendors, yes. But Firefox and Chrome, which take their roles as user agent seriously, made sure the spec is one that they can also implement securely on their end. This is a ridiculously huge improvement over NPAPI.

Browser plugins can restrict your freedom in two ways:

1. They can monitor and restrict what you do with the content you're accessing through the plugin.

2. They can monitor and restrict what you do with ANYTHING ELSE IN THE BROWSER OR ANYWHERE ON YOUR COMPUTER.

EME-restricted video can do 1, but cannot do 2. This is not a complete victory for freedom, but it's a significant step forward.

Most of us do not live in a free-software utopia where we have direct control over every part of our machine from the firmware on up. (Although I have a lot of respect for the people who are trying to get us there!) Even if we're running a free OS, we assume, against our better judgment, that the firmware is doing only what it should be doing. If it's not, then it throws the rest of our freedom out the window.

Sandboxing EME allows us to ensure that one non-free part of the system, if we can't get rid of it, is restricted to doing only what it says it can do. This is a lot better than the status quo for any mixed free/non-free system (including free OS/non-free firmware). It's not quite the same as getting rid of it or making it free, but it's certainly not nothing.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by vertex-four on Saturday February 07, 2015 @04:11AM (#9013536)
> as if the only issue with these was that they're poorly coded and supported

A major issue is that arbitrary code can do arbitrary things, up to and including installing rootkits on your machine (for example, the Sony rootkit debacle). The sandbox means it can only do what the sandbox allows it to - in the case of Firefox's sandbox, that's very little.

"I should be able to watch whatever content I want on my system without installing proprietary software, even if that software is highly sandboxed and can't even see anything on my system and can't cause any permanent changes" is a political and moral issue more than a technical one.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by AnkhMorporkian on Saturday February 07, 2015 @04:42AM (#9013566)
No user is being forced into using this. I haven't really followed this argument from the beginning. Philosophically I despise DRM, but pragmatically as long as it isn't forced on users as the only option, then I don't see any issue with an extension having that option being available.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by FeeTinesAMady on Saturday February 07, 2015 @07:16AM (#9013758)
It will be forced on the users, though. If it becomes widespread, the choices are to support DRM or be locked out of the web.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by AnkhMorporkian on Saturday February 07, 2015 @02:14PM (#9014974)
> If it becomes widespread, the choices are to support DRM or be locked out of the web.

Or use a free and open source browser that doesn't implement it. If this is something people want to take a principled stance against, those browsers will doubtlessly continue to exist.

Unless you're referring the content access. That's a general trend with technology that likely won't be stopped. If you choose not to use certain technologies, it's unsurprising that you won't be granted access to certain things.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by nsgi on Saturday February 07, 2015 @10:44AM (#9014257)
Not being able to play protected content (which you couldn't in the first place without installing Flash or another proprietary plugin) is a far cry from being locked out of the web.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by pdkl95 on Saturday February 07, 2015 @08:21AM (#9013867)
No user (statistically speaking) even knows what EME is nor what EME (and DRM in general) implies. It says a lot about the morals and intentions of an industry when they are so quick to exploit that ignorance.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by ianlevesque on Saturday February 07, 2015 @02:19AM (#9013358)
It definitely is in a tightly locked cage. Firefox even generates the device fingerprint itself rather than allow any machine access. An EME module cannot access the Internet, nor store data to the hard drive. There's a detailed writeup here: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-missi...
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by belorn on Saturday February 07, 2015 @04:44AM (#9013568)
An interesting technical claim to sandbox a process in such a way that it has free access to display drivers and hardware modules (tpm's) but not the host system, network or hard drive.

I would like to see a security audit on that claim.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by ianlevesque on Saturday February 07, 2015 @01:52PM (#9014894)
I'm no expert on the Firefox source code but it appears the relevant code is here https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/193c4c5c7ec2/med...
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by SixSigma on Saturday February 07, 2015 @07:50AM (#9013813)
This is a bad thing.

No saving means :

No time shifting, no device shifting, no legal fair use.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by mccr8 on Saturday February 07, 2015 @12:53PM (#9014689)
I'd guess that the larger barrier to the lack of saving is the desires of the copyright holders who decide what the EME module can do, rather than the permissiveness of the sandbox.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by DougBTX on Saturday February 07, 2015 @08:19AM (#9013864)
Exaggerating claims beyond a certain point makes them unconvincing. For example, the BBC's iPlayer is designed for time shifting and device shifting, and it has always used restrictive DRM, so saying that DRM prevents that just makes the argument look wrong to semi-informed users.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by falcolas on Saturday February 07, 2015 @10:42AM (#9014250)
> saying that DRM prevents that just makes the argument look wrong to semi-informed users.

It does prevent these uses, however, unless the content provider explicitly provides it. The US law says that the content provider does not need to explicitly allow it; it's a right granted to the user by copyright law.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by SixSigma on Saturday February 07, 2015 @11:41AM (#9014440)
> For example, the BBC's iPlayer is designed for time shifting and device shifting

Cool, can you show me how to play the content on my portable MP4 player please.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by JupiterMoon on Saturday February 07, 2015 @12:27PM (#9014607)
get-iplayer?
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by SixSigma on Saturday February 07, 2015 @02:48PM (#9015081)
I searched the BBC website but I can't find that anywhere.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by gergles on Saturday February 07, 2015 @12:46PM (#9014666)
Which relies on the flash streaming protocol, so here we are back at square one.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by JupiterMoon on Saturday February 07, 2015 @01:29PM (#9014811)
Actually we're worse. As I understand it UK law considers that because flash based DRM is weak it doesn't count as DRM and hence get-iplayer is legal. Will this hold when/if the BBC switches to the new boss?
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by M2Ys4U on Saturday February 07, 2015 @02:06PM (#9014944)
>As I understand it UK law considers that because flash based DRM is weak it doesn't count as DRM

Unfortunately, no. I think you may be getting tripped up by the phrase "effective technological measures" - being "effective" is a very, very low bar. To quote s296ZF of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988:[0]

“technological measures” are any technology, device or component which is designed, in the normal course of its operation, to protect a copyright work other than a computer program.

(2)Such measures are “effective” if the use of the work is controlled by the copyright owner through—

(a)an access control or protection process such as encryption, scrambling or other transformation of the work, or

(b)a copy control mechanism,

which achieves the intended protection.

[0] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/296ZF

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by copsarebastards on Saturday February 07, 2015 @03:11AM (#9013436)
> Chrome and Firefox's sandboxes, meanwhile, are both open-source. You can inspect what powers the EME module might possibly have, and know that it can't gain any more.

Yeah, that's not true[1]. Sandbox security is not perfect.

Sandboxed plugins are definitely are an improvement in security over non-sandboxed ones, but running untrusted code in a sandbox is still running untrusted code on your machine. At the very least that has to be considered one level of privilege escalation that's just being handed to malicious coders for free.

Sandboxes are great. I'd love to see open source code run inside sandboxes, because even if the code has been audited, because even if I know the code isn't trying to do anything bad, it might have vulnerabilities that let other people do bad things. Running closed-source EME code inside a sandbox is still an unnecessary risk, though, because we have no way of verifying whether that code is secure and in fact that code might be an attacker itself.

[1] http://www.zdnet.com/article/pwn2own-2012-google-chrome-brow...

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by comex on Saturday February 07, 2015 @04:16AM (#9013547)
The JavaScript VM is also a type of sandbox, whose security in every browser is compromised on a depressingly regular schedule. It's true that the EME sandbox is an additional risk, but it's only supposed to run a single piece of software from (in Firefox's case) Adobe, which is probably not malware, and would thus have to be exploited before the strength of the sandbox made a difference. It probably can be exploited, but considering that attackers can run arbitrary evil JavaScript directly... EME is only a small addition to the overall risk profile.

What I think is more important, from a security perspective, is that EME defeats (or attempts to defeat) attempts to get by without JavaScript or the complexity of modern browsers altogether. YouTube doesn't work as is without JavaScript anyway, but one determined not to use it could just download all their videos with youtube-dl; until someone comes out with a reverse engineered Widevine or Adobe Primetime or whatever other long-i-festooned DRM systems these sites support, this plan won't work for DRMed video.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by vertex-four on Saturday February 07, 2015 @04:14AM (#9013543)
> running untrusted code in a sandbox is still running untrusted code on your machine

asm.js and various obfuscators allow websites to do this in the first place with closed-source code, with a far larger attack service than the EME sandbox. In not a lot of time from now, they quite reasonably could.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by walterbell on Saturday February 07, 2015 @02:45AM (#9013393)
DRM and sandboxing will also be using hardware enclaves within the x86 processor, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8425178
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by jumpwah on Saturday February 07, 2015 @02:10AM (#9013348)
When Cameron wanted encryption to be illegal, would that mean EME would also have been illegal?
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by geofft on Saturday February 07, 2015 @02:21AM (#9013361)
Didn't he only want encryption without a government backdoor to be illegal?

I don't really think anyone has a problem with giving the latest episodes of Homeland and Downton Abbey to our political elite.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by kissickas on Saturday February 07, 2015 @03:28AM (#9013467)
I have a problem with giving Homeland to our political elite. How about The Newsroom?
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by nitrogen on Saturday February 07, 2015 @03:47AM (#9013496)
It's not the content itself, but the list of content accessed by a user that is dangerous for the governments of the world to have.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by SixSigma on Saturday February 07, 2015 @07:52AM (#9013817)
What does Theo think?

> You are absolutely deluded, if not stupid, if you think that a worldwide collection of software engineers who can't write operating systems or applications without security holes, can then turn around and suddenly write virtualization layers without security holes.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by dredmorbius on Saturday February 07, 2015 @08:06AM (#9013837)
The virtualization layer becomes a single point of concentration for both security and attack. That offers opportunities to reduce the attack surface and opportunity.

Net net, given the choice of extensive plug-ins vs. virtualization, I'll go with the latter.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by fnordfnordfnord on Saturday February 07, 2015 @08:35AM (#9013899)
Agree that eating less shit sandwich is better than eating more. But it's still a shit sandwich.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by detrino on Saturday February 07, 2015 @01:57AM (#9013323)
Flash for Chrome uses the PPAPI and is sandboxed.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by geofft on Saturday February 07, 2015 @02:03AM (#9013334)
That is a fair point, but I would also consider that a (limited) victory on par with the (limited) victory of moving from Flash to EME, and I wish it got more press. The people who are implementing sandboxes are doing massively effective work to improve the security and privacy of everyone using the web. Chrome has been quite active here and I don't think they can be thanked enough.

That said, PPAPI is Chrome-only; EME is a standard, and Mozilla's implementation even outlines a way for other browsers to integrate the EME module Mozilla uses, plus their sandbox, into their own browsers.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by dark_photon on Saturday February 07, 2015 @04:56AM (#9013582)
I think the point is that Chrome uses PPAPI for both Flash and EME.

Firefox also uses some kind of sandbox for plugins (like Flash) but yes, their planned sandbox for EME is stricter.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by aikah on Saturday February 07, 2015 @03:23AM (#9013456)
there is no victory here. EME is as bad as flash if not worse.People who refuse to acknowledge that simple fact are as guilty as vendors pushing these technologies.

>> EME is a standard,

That's the heart of the problem. It guarantees the fact that web technologies are not open technologies anymore.

>> Mozilla's implementation

Mozilla dropped the ball years ago when it comes to proprietary techs. I see little difference between Firefox and Chrome on that matter.

Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by ris on Saturday February 07, 2015 @08:44AM (#9013925)
People talk a lot about "sandboxing" things as though it's magical fairy dust.
Re:YouTube Ditches Flash, and It Hardly Matters by eridius on Saturday February 07, 2015 @03:28AM (#9013466)
I would be shocked if Safari did not also sandbox EME just as tightly as Chrome and Firefox. Of course, Safari isn't open source, but a sufficiently knowledgeable person could locate the background process Safari uses for EME (it probably has a very distinctive name) and check what the sandbox it uses is.