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Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by japhyr on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @10:48AM (#8562318)
Here's an interesting piece of the Alaska marijuana legal status. We just voted to legalize recreational marijuana use, which includes growing and selling marijuana. I'm happy to see it pass because possession has been legal here for a long time, but sales and distribution has not. That's a murky legal situation, which I'm happy to see cleared up.

But last night an article ran in our local paper stating that the Coast Guard will continue to enforce federal marijuana regulations [0]. In Alaska, that's a huge asterisk next to legalization. You can't carry marijuana on a boat, which includes the ferries in southeast and throughout the Gulf of Alaska. That also impacts all of the villages throughout the state whose main access is by river. And finally, transporting marijuana by air is against federal regulations as well. That means marijuana is essentially legalized on the road system of Alaska, which leaves much of the state in another legal limbo.

I look forward to the day where the entire country has a more reasonable approach to marijuana regulation.

[0] http://juneauempire.com/local/2014-11-03/smoke-water#.VFpFQT...

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by kyleblarson on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:02AM (#8562400)
As a Seattleite I was optimistic things might change at the federal level when Obama appointed Kerlikowski as drug czar, given his experience as police chief in what even in 2009 was a very cannabis friendly city. I guess I was just another sucker for hope and change that never materialized.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by munificent on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:14PM (#8562847)
The US government is a pretty big boat and takes a while to turn around. You have to have patience and a longer view, but change does happen. In 2012 it was two states. Now it's four. We're getting there.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by Alupis on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:15PM (#8563235)
The issue at the Federal level is not too long ago the US went around bullying UN nations into signing a unified drug treaty which is in effect for I believe 90 years. The idea was that if all countries agree on banning certain drugs, it can have a more unified effort in eradicating said drugs. It mostly targeted hard drugs, but marijuana is also named in the treaty.

It would be very difficult for the US to back out of or alter the very treaty we pressured most of the world into signing not that long ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_D...

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by anigbrowl on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:44PM (#8563425)
That's a very good point - it's the basic reason that Obama can't 'end the drug war with a stroke of his pen' as some people seem to imagine, because treaties ratified by the US have almost constitutional standing in legal terms, and need to be formally derogated rather than legislated away. While the US could certainly do so without suffering meaningful sanctions or major geopolitical harm over the long term, indifference to treaty obligations is often the hallmark of an insular political viewpoint - but then such people also tend to be uninterested in the ramifications for international trade and cross-border institutions in the first place.

That said, the SCND dates back to 1961 which was 53 years ago, and those countries which have openly stepped back from full compliance with it such as Portugal and Uruguay don't seem to have incurred any disadvantage or sanctions worth talking about, though you might argue that they had little or no political capital to lose in the first place. I do think there's a global shift towards looking at drug abuse and addiction as public health issues rather than moral vices, so while there's pressure form some quarters to maintain or strengthen anti-drug enforcement there's also pressure to adopt more utilitarian policies focused on harm minimization and demand management.

I think the convention will not be explicitly derogated any time soon, but will rather be allowed to become a dead letter through diminished contributions of fiscal and political capital for enforcement, while being nominally and loudly upheld by more authoritarian regimes as both a blunt instrument in trade negotiations and as a proxy for the rule of law.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smsm42 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @04:32PM (#8564393)
Given that the executive branch has prosecutorial discretion and never has been shy of using it when it mattered, I do not believe the "treaties make us do this" argument. Maybe the federal government could not have full de-jure legalize for some technical reasons. But it is completely capable to restrain the zeal of prosecution and reduce both the number of cases and the priority of those to a wide degree. If only they wanted to. Instead, the government tries to squash the legalize even when it happens (look up Operation Choke Point[1]). It's not something forced by treaties, it's a voluntary act. Not that the US is in mortal fear of sanctions from Pakistan or Colombia for not fighting drugs enough, but it's not treaties that make police kill a teen because they suspect he has a small bag of drugs [2] or kill a senior citizen in his own bed because they suspect he has some drugs (he didn't) [3]. It's something that the government can and must fix, and no treaty prevents it from doing so. The legal technicalities can come later, but the switch from a mentality where the government is at war with its own citizens should happen now. It should have happened years ago, actually.

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014...

[2] http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/05/teen-dead-after...

[3] http://reason.com/blog/2014/02/15/yet-another-example-of-why...

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by anigbrowl on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @06:28PM (#8564901)
I don't disagree about enforcement policy, which is in dire need of a top-to-bottom overhaul. It seems to me that the US could be fully compliant with its treaty obligations and even maintain an unpermissive attitude to drug use without enforcing the paramilitary enforcement tactics that have become commonplace. But the legal/constitutional framework within which drug policy is often overlooked in such debates, which was why I wanted to discuss it here.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by IndianAstronaut on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @09:51PM (#8565561)
Those stories are just heartbreaking.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by politician on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:51PM (#8563863)
The difficulty in removing them is also why legislation enacted by way of treaties should be vigorously debated in an open forum, as opposed to the way the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) has been negotiated.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by anigbrowl on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:08PM (#8563968)
I think up-or-down votes or referenda are more appropriate for that. Multilateral treaties are inherently legislative documents, and legislating-to-legislate looks like a self-defeating increase in complexity - there's a reason that governments have executive as well as legislative functions, even though they ,may not always yield results we like in the short term.

I mean, imagine if the votes of US senators on individual issues were governed by the outcome of votes in state legislatures - you'd have a more responsive democracy on the face of things but in practice legislative work would slow to an utter crawl and you'd have even more procedural maneuvering than we do now.

I'm personally hoping the incoming congress gives the President fast-track authority to negotiate both the TPP and TTIP, which would be a shrewd political tactic; while I don't much like that it might benefit the GOP, that's outweighed by my support of free trade and my low opinion of economic populism and national sovereignty (just to be up=front about my political biases).

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by Alupis on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:35PM (#8564099)
> I'm personally hoping the incoming congress gives the President fast-track authority to negotiate both the TPP and TTIP

He doesn't need congressional approval -- that's exactly how the TPP has been getting negotiated this entire time -- and is exactly why it's so outstandingly bad.

Back room deals regarding IP rights (pushed hard by the MPAA, RIAA and other lobbying organizations) among many other blanketed things that the public has no knowledge of nor any say in but will ultimately be as effective as law here in the country. (so much for the legislative branch)

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by anigbrowl on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:57PM (#8564205)
You are mistaken. Existing negotiations are geared towards the production of a preliminary draft that would then be subject to legislative debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_track_(trade)

http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33743.pdf <<CRS is the Congressional Research Service, a useful resource for anyone interested in policy matters

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/195858-white-hous...

(so much for the legislative branch)

I could say the same thing about the executive branch, which persons like yourself seem to think should merely administrate the legislative will. Our constitutional design institutionalizes tension between these two branches of government, and very explicitly grants the President power to make treaties, subject to a 2/3 approval from the Senate for ratification.

Trade agreements are not exactly the same as treaties, but there is ample precedent for Congress pre-emptively authorizing the President to negotiate them. The consitutional basis for this is discussed in some detail near the start of the CRS paper linked above.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by anigbrowl on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @06:20PM (#8564868)
PS I don't mean you're mistaken about your disapproval of fast track negotiation - that's a completely valid opinion, albeit one with which I disagree. I just meant you were mistaken in regard to your assertion that the President doesn't need to consult Congress. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by divegeek on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @09:49PM (#8565557)
Treaty obligations do not have "almost constitutional standing". Treaty obligations have exactly the same standing as any law passed by Congress, whether they're constitutionally ratified (which is extremely rare), or congressional-executive (the common kind), in which the president signs a treaty that is completely non-binding on the US, but promises that Congress will enact legislation to fulfill its terms[0].

In either case, there is zero domestic legal consequence to deciding to ignore the treaty provisions. Technically a decision by the executive branch to violate treaty provisions is a violation of federal law, but there are no consequences. Obviously, if the US decides to violate a treaty agreement there may well be international consequences, including other nations' decisions to back out of the treaty, to refuse to trust the US in other negotiations or treaties, etc. All of that, of course, is exactly the same regardless of whether or not there is a formal process of derogation.

[0] There's a third form of treaty, "sole executive". That form is applicable when the treaty obligations are entirely within the scope of presidential power, such as Status Of Forces Agreements which the president executes in his role as Commander-In-Chief. Those, of course, have no legal standing at all except as lawful orders from the president to his employees.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by bradleyjg on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @07:11PM (#8565072)
>because treaties ratified by the US have almost constitutional standing in legal terms, and need to be formally derogated rather than legislated away.

As a matter of domestic law, that's not the case. Treaties are on the same level as federal legislation and the last in time controls. There are a series of court cases that disfavor implied abrogragation under comity principles, but if a later-in-time statute is in clear and unavoidable conflict with an earlier treaty, the statute controls.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by anigbrowl on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @09:51PM (#8565562)
Thanks for the correction. I certainly overstated it - I was thinking about pre-emption of state law and the limits of administrative fiat, and let my imagination run away a bit!
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by adventured on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:47PM (#8564139)
It will be very easy for the US to back out of or alter that treaty, for several reasons.

1) The US often does not abide by things the way most other countries are expected to. If we want to back out, nobody can stop us, there will be no negative consequences, nobody is going to embargo or sanction the US over the matter. Is that fair? Of course not, but that's one of the 'perks' of being the lone superpower.

2) Everybody else will celebrate. Most people realize at this point that prohibition does not work very well in most of the world (countries like Japan being the freak outlier due to culture; but I'd argue even they would benefit from liberalized drug policies).

3) The rest of the world wants to tear down the failed war on drugs that the US initiated. They will be eager to welcome a shift in attitude from the US Government. Now that the people of the US want to tear down the failed war on drugs, that is exactly what will happen, slowly but surely. Nothing can stop it now, there has been a fundamental culture shift in the US over the last 20 years, and once that goes a direction, there is nothing that can stop it (see: gay marriage, women's suffrage, civil rights).

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by binarycrusader on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:27PM (#8564071)
It's sad to say this, but that's not the real reason.

The US ignores various agreements it's signed all the time, and international conventions, etc.

So I'd say, you're right, but only because it's convenient for them to adhere to it.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by rayiner on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @04:57PM (#8564520)
It's not just that the U.S. is a big boat, it's that the federal government is necessarily slow to respond to local changes. At the national level, the consensus in favor of legalizing marijuana shifted to a slight majority just last year: http://www.people-press.org/2013/04/04/majority-now-supports.... Indeed, if we're talking about the voting public, rather than just the general population, the national consensus is likely still in favor of keeping it illegal, since actual voters skew older and more conservative than the population as a whole.

Furthermore, the drug policy boat in particular is very big. A lot of this policy, and the institutions implementing it, was developed in the 1980's and 1990's. In 1991, the consensus in favor of making marijuana illegal was an overwhelming 78-17. Being anti-drug was a political winner, something both sides of the aisle could get behind. Almost everyone old enough to have substantial leadership within the drug enforcement organizations grew up in an intensely anti-drug culture. It will take quite some time for those folks to age out of the system.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by tmarthal on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @08:09PM (#8565267)
Actually, I think when Tobacco and Pharmacy companies start to get a piece of the financial incentives in the states where it is legal, you will see their lobbying arm start to influence federal elections on the national level. It is assumed that Marlboro/Camel or whichever tobacco company, could expand their market tremendously with legalized marijuana federal legislation.

I am not an expert (anyone want to chime in?), however it seems right now, the industry does not seem to have any real monopolies and that individual dispensaries (which also have farms?) are making most of the money, rather than any corporations.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by lisper on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:46PM (#8563055)
Exactly. Ten years ago gay marriage was illegal in all but one state. Now it's legal in all but 15, and even that number is shrinking rapidly.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by barry-cotter on Thursday November 06, 2014 @12:11AM (#8565879)
Drug Czar is an executive appointment. If Obama had been the change he campaigned on he could have directed that the DEA, an _executive_ agency stop enforcing federal law on marijuana in states where it's been legalised. The grandparent wasn't talking about "the government". He was talking about Obama.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by mikeash on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:13PM (#8563224)
Marijuana laws are up to Congress, not the executive. They have discretion in how they enforce the laws to an extent, but they shouldn't just ignore them.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by themartorana on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:19PM (#8563665)
Congress makes the laws, the Executive enforces them, SCOTUS determines their Constitutionality. So in fact, one check that the Executive can have on the Legislative is in not enforcing laws.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by ams6110 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:24PM (#8564057)
There is an obligation on the part of the executive to enforce the laws passed by congress. The constitution requires that he "take care that the laws be faithfully executed." Clearly there's some room for prioritization and allocation of scarce resources but he can't just ignore them. The Executive's check on the legislative branch is the veto power.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by pmoriarty on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:44PM (#8565817)
There are at least two was to interpret that phrase:

1 - he must take care that when the laws are executed, they are done so faithfully.

2 - he must execute all the laws, and do so faithfully.

The first of these interpretations does not require that every law be executed.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by dllthomas on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:57PM (#8565843)
"The Executive's check on the legislative branch is the veto power."

The President also has the "power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States". Choosing not to enforce something is in fact a weaker exercise of power than pardon, as it preserves the ability of future administrations to prosecute current infractions.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smsm42 on Thursday November 06, 2014 @08:10PM (#8570789)
There is a concept of prosecutorial discretion, and the current administration is not shy at all of using it.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by WildUtah on Thursday November 06, 2014 @02:38AM (#8566129)
The Controlled Substances Act of 1970 grants the head of the Food and Drug Administration authority to designate and remove illegal drugs from the schedules of controlled substances. The FDA can remove marijuana at any time and as long as the DEA director doesn't object, that is the law.

The DEA and FDA directors serve at the pleasure of the president. Thus, Obama can legalize marijuana if he wants to. He doesn't remotely want to.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by mikeash on Thursday November 06, 2014 @10:12AM (#8567304)
Interesting! I had thought that at least some drugs like marijuana were directly enshrined in the law.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by Shivetya on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:40AM (#8562655)
Didn't DC just vote to legalize it, you just cannot buy or sell it.

Here is to hoping the next big issue after marriage equality if fixing our drug laws, which are more damaging than many will admit and far too profitable to law enforcement and the prison industry.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by kemiller on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:48AM (#8562700)
@metrix many prisons are run by for-profit companies. It costs the taxpayers a lot, but there is profit to be made, and some elected officials benefit at least indirectly. edit: awkward wording
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by InclinedPlane on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:45PM (#8564130)
That's a common narrative, but it's not the driving force behind the drug war. Look at corruption, look at hardened attitudes on drugs, look at race, look at civil asset forfeiture, look at the militarization of law enforcement. That's where the momentum for the drug war is coming from, not so much from for-profit prison systems (though that does add a small component).
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by adventured on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:59PM (#8564215)
Not to mention private prisons have never been a large fraction of the prison system. The drug war dates to the late 1960s - and goes back further culturally. Corporate prisons were even less relevant when the drug war started putting tons of people in prison circa 1980, than they are today.

The problem is the US Government, and always has been.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by mason240 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:00PM (#8563143)
>many prisons are run by for-profit companies.

Citation for the "Many"?

Only about 5% of prisoners are in private prisons.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by Mikeb85 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:13PM (#8563222)
Given how many prisons are in the US, that probably still qualifies as 'many'...
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by spacemanmatt on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:39PM (#8563399)
I've got 8.4% (2013 U.S. DOJ statistics) via WikiPedia
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by trhway on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:34PM (#8563761)
if you add prison guards unions - which are formally non-profit, and that only means that they have no taxes to pay and they have nobody else to give the formal profit away, and as result they have all the money they collect to themselves - you'd get pretty much 100% of US prisons run by organizations with direct financial interests in growing the prisons in size and number.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by mason240 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:24PM (#8564056)
By that logic, wouldn't every part of government with unions be "run by organizations with direct financial interests in growing...?"

That seems like it would be a union problem and not a prison problem.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by cloudwalking on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:28PM (#8564076)
Except in this case, peoples' freedoms are denied. Versus, say, waiting longer in line at the DMV.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by trhway on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @04:57PM (#8564518)
yep, there is a reason why military for example aren't allowed to form a union. I hope CIA/FBI/NSA aren't allowed to have it too. And prison guards and police shouldn't be allowed to. Holders of "license for violence" shouldn't have masters other than the government hierarchy they belong to thus minimizing conflict of interests.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smsm42 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @04:41PM (#8564438)
If you look at who's making profit on war on drugs, look up how much money is taken by civil forfeiture. That's where the real money is. And by real money I mean millions, hundreds of millions. Just one case: http://www.government-fleet.com/news/story/2012/04/rhode-isl... There are many, many more. And not only from fatcats - there are thousand of forfeiture cases for sums like $300-$500.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by adventured on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:56PM (#8564189)
The government is the for-profit prison system.

The money made on prisons, is made by construction firms, labor that works at the prison, and slave labor used to manufacture things. There is a ton of profit being made from government prisons.

I always find it bizarre that people point to the 5% to 8% problem - corporate prisons - and think that is the problem, while pretending the huge money that circles around the other 92% - the government prisons - is benign by comparison. The other 92% is even more vile than the 8% corporate prisons - it's 11 times larger.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by metrix on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:43AM (#8562677)
Profitable? It costs the state a lot to hold a prisoner.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by nate_meurer on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:27PM (#8562931)
Yes, profitable. For example, prison guard unions lobby ferociously against relaxing drug laws, in order to protect prison guards' jobs and salaries:

http://www.republicreport.org/2012/marijuana-lobby-illegal/

http://mic.com/articles/41531/union-of-the-snake-how-califor...

EDIT: Here's a cute quote from Corrections Corporation of America, one of the largest for-profit prison companies:

"any changes with respect to drugs and controlled substances or illegal immigration could affect the number of persons arrested, convicted, and sentenced, thereby potentially reducing demand for correctional facilities to house them." [0]

[0] - http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9N...

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by refurb on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:08PM (#8563587)
It's true they have a financial incentive to maintain current drug laws, but those same incentives exist for many important roles.

If someone comes up with a cure for cancer, a lot of oncologists are going to be out of a job. Does that mean that oncologists are actively suppressing cancer cures?

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by nate_meurer on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:29PM (#8563726)
This might be the most useless analogy I have ever encountered. I'm sorry, I don't mean to attack you but I honestly have no idea what your point is.

Corrections Corporation of America and other private prison companies openly fight efforts to relax drugs laws. Same for prison guard unions; In 2008 the CCPoA, California's largest prison guard union, was the most active opponent of Prop 5, which would have expanded treatment for non-violent drug offenders, and reduced criminal penalties for non-violent drug crimes [1].

As far as I know, oncologists are not fighting cancer research in order to protect their careers.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_5_%2820...

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by refurb on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @05:07PM (#8564563)
I guess I'm questioning why the assumption is that they support drug laws because it makes them money. They may be supporting it for other reasons (strongly support law and order).
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by sv123 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @08:27PM (#8565321)
They have a duty to their shareholders to grow revenue and stay in business. If something threatens that, they will fight it. Like many other commercial enterprise they will spend money on lobbying to protect profits, in this case it is just particularly sickening how big the problem has become.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBDvxy5qQY

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by refurb on Thursday November 06, 2014 @12:37AM (#8565929)
You just proved my point! Doctors who work in a group practice have a fiduciary duty to grow revenue. Does that mean doctors cut corners to make more money? I'm sure some do.

Do private prisons fight relaxing laws to make more money? I'm sure some do, but most don't.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by vidarh on Thursday November 06, 2014 @06:49AM (#8566619)
> Do private prisons fight relaxing laws to make more money? I'm sure some do, but most don't.

Corrections Corporation of America does, and they account for more than 80,000 of the 133,000 private prison beds in the US. GEO Group does, and they account for about 49,000. Together they thus represents the vast majority of private prisons in the US.

Both of them are part of ALEC - a DC base lobbying group that develops model legislation that it then pushes as a means for state legislators to be "tough on crime".

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by refurb on Thursday November 06, 2014 @07:55PM (#8570729)
But are they doing it to make more money? Or because they believe in the legislation?
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by throwaway234 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:25PM (#8563699)
Many uninformed people honestly do believe that, yes.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by techpeace on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:52AM (#8562721)
I believe they're referring to the private prison industry, which makes a pretty penny off locking up non-violent drug offenders. Their trade organization listed liberalizing drug laws as a potential threat to their bottom line in their last annual report, so we can expect that they will fiercely lobby against anything happening at a federal level.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by waterlesscloud on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:03PM (#8562786)
I feel like this situation is overstated a lot. Something like 8% of prisoners in the US are in privately run prisons, which could be a problem, but it's not the massive number that is often implied.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by jdminhbg on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:24PM (#8562911)
People do often overestimate how many prisoners are in privately-run prisons, but at the same time, if the US suddenly had 10% fewer prisoners, those privately-run prisons would likely be the first to go.

As far as lobbying, the other 92% of prisoners are guarded by very powerful public sector unions, whose incentives are the same.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:05PM (#8563574)
It's absolutely massive when you consider that locking up humans in cages is perhaps not the sort of thing we ought to encourage by making the practice lucrative.

The existence of even a single for-profit prison provides a perverse incentive to put the marginal criminal into a private, profit-generating cage rather than a public, tax-draining, politically-risky rehabilitation or diversion program.

Furthermore, it is an invitation to corruption. Remember the judge that was sending juvenile defendants to a reform camp, often regardless of the merits of their cases, because he was getting kickbacks from the camp?

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by king_jester on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:32PM (#8562965)
It's not just the privately run prison complexes, but also suppliers, consultancies, police equipment manufacturers, arms manufacturers, and so. That's the 'industrial' in prison industrial complex.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by munificent on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:15PM (#8562850)
> Something like 8% of prisoners in the US are in privately run prisons

For the other 92%, how much work does that state-run prison contract out to private companies?

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by CamperBob2 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:17PM (#8563653)
Something like 8% of prisoners in the US are in privately run prisons, which could be a problem, but it's not the massive number that is often implied.

Quick, off the top of your head: do you have any idea just how many people are incarcerated in this country, in both absolute and per-capita terms, and how those figures compare to, say, every other country on Earth?

8% of the US prison population is a HELL of a lot of people.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by anigbrowl on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:50PM (#8563462)
That's true, but 8% of anything in the US is a lot. There's roughly 2.2 million prisoners so maybe 200k of them are held in private prisons. And as someone points out upthread, when you add in all that prison-building, the firms that deliver services tot he corrections market and so on, it adds up to a lot of economic activity.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by vidarh on Thursday November 06, 2014 @06:52AM (#8566622)
About 133,000 as of 2013. And two companies (CCA and GEO Group), both of whom are aggressively fighting for tougher laws as a matter of course have about 129,000 bed capacity.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smtddr on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:07PM (#8562814)
That's still 8% too much.

That still means there are millionaires out there lobbying to keep drug laws as is so they can keep filling their prisons. And the other 92% of prisons probably have a ton of people behind bars due to drug laws because of the 8% of prisons that lobby for & profit from them.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by adventured on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @04:08PM (#8564263)
As though the 92% isn't attempting to hold onto its massive profit system. There's vastly more money flowing into pockets in the 92% than in the 8%, that's logically obvious.

Jobs, graft, construction, maintenance, slave labor, etc. - huge sums of profit derived from the government prison system, far more than in the corporate system.

As though the 92% of that equation is looking to give up its jobs and tax dollars. Because we just know how much the government likes to give up its spending.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by adventured on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @04:03PM (#8564243)
The government makes a lot more money locking people up than the private prison industry does.

It's 11 times larger. That's a lot of tax money to roll around in, and generates a ton of profit in the form of slave labor manufacturing, graft, jobs that politicians use as platforms, labor unions that get kickbacks and get to dole out well paying jobs.

What's the difference, when we're speaking of "profit" when it comes to whether the corporate prison generates a 7% margin, or whether that 7% goes to a union at a government prison? There is no real difference, it's just a matter of whose pocket the cash ends up in.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by chaostheory on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:50AM (#8562709)
Yes but you're forgetting that there's a private prison industry. A lot of states have outsourced it. I feel that's what Shivetya was alluding to.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by iwwr on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:53AM (#8562732)
As with most politics, decisions aren't made by the people who actually incur the costs.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by TallGuyShort on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:10PM (#8562826)
Exactly. That means there's a whole industry / sector of government trying to make it look like a lot of people should be prisoners to protect their jobs and expand their departments.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by showerst on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:51AM (#8562716)
I think in DC the situation will be that private individuals can't sell it, but there will be licensed dispensaries. That's pending congressional approval though. (Really it's pending congress not striking it down, which they seem loathe to do except for one very zealous committee member without much power).
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by chimeracoder on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:12PM (#8562839)
> I think in DC the situation will be that private individuals can't sell it, but there will be licensed dispensaries.

No, the DC provision does not allow for licensed dispensaries for recreational use[0]. (Dispensaries for medical use have just begun opening under the medical law passed in 2011, but this is separate from the situation in Colorado post-Amendment 64).

> That's pending congressional approval though. (Really it's pending congress not striking it down, which they seem loathe to do except for one very zealous committee member without much power).

Do you have a source for this? Congress has struck down similar measures from DC in the past.

[0] http://dcmj.org/ballot-initiative/

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by showerst on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:13PM (#8564001)
Oops you're right, I thought the initiative had a provision for the dispensaries to sell to everyone, but that will have to happen in the city council. Grosso has a bill pending for it, but media doesn't seem to think the council is in a hurry; they'll at least wait out congress.

I'm trying to track down my source for the approval, but the general thought seems to be that the republicans other than Andy Harris (aforementioned super opposed member) are less likely to start a fight where they're in the minority on a "state's rights" issue during what should be a quiet legislative session.

Harris isn't a committee chair so he can't bring up the ban/amendment without help. I don't know the committee politics to well enough to know this is likely; but usually they sneak these things in as budget riders which takes the approval of the committee chair.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smsm42 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @04:20PM (#8564322)
It just boggles the mind how perversely government logic looks here. So Alaskans say: we are OK with people using marijuana, we see no problem with it. And then the Feds come and say - well, we are still going to arrest and imprison you if you do it, despite the clear will of the people of Alaska, because we can. We know we don't actually change anything as we absolutely can not prevent people of Alaska from using marijuana, but we still will prosecute random people unlucky enough to be caught by us in Alaska while doing the thing completely legal and OK in Alaska, because that's what we do.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by rayiner on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @09:30PM (#8565501)
What's perverse about the logic here? Alaskans say: we're okay with people using marijuana. And the Feds say: that's great, but we're not okay with it and as long as it involves interstate transportation or the coastal waters of the United States, we'll arrest you for it.

That's precisely the separation of state and federal power the founders envisioned.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smsm42 on Thursday November 06, 2014 @08:06PM (#8570778)
The perverse part is that people who are supposed to protect the rights of the Alaskans are instead actively working to deny them those rights, while hiding behind the flimsy excuse of "separation of state". It's definitely not what the founders envisioned - the "commerce clause" - the reason-to-go for every federal power expansion now - was meant to prevent trade bareers between states, not to allow the Feds to suppress state decisions under the guise of "oh, it might influence the price of marijuana in other states, so it's commerce, so we can do whatever we want". Calling this "precisely what the founders envisioned" is just laughable.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by jacquesm on Thursday November 06, 2014 @06:37AM (#8566588)
All it takes is you sending a picture postcard using the US Postal Service during your 'crime' to make it a federal thing.

This sort of hack to elevate crimes to federal level has been abused plenty of drugs cases in the past, so that separation of state and federal powers is mostly a matter of decorum, if the feds want to be involved in a case they will be.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by rayiner on Thursday November 06, 2014 @01:09PM (#8568591)
How is it a "hack" for the federal government to assert jurisdiction over a crime that involved the use of a federal service?
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by jacquesm on Thursday November 06, 2014 @03:18PM (#8569484)
The postal service being used within a state should not make a non-federal crime a federal crime. "Not crossing state lines" versus "using a service that could be used to cross state lines".
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by TylerE on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @04:37PM (#8564416)
This cuts both ways.... do you really think, that, say, Mississippi, should be able to inact anything 51% of the voters vote for? It'd be back to the Jim Crow days.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smsm42 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @05:02PM (#8564544)
We're talking not about "anything". We're talking about specific thing where the law enforcement enforces arbitrary prohibition against the will of the same people they pretend to protect. Comparing this to Jim Crow laws makes no sense - Jim Crow laws limited people's rights, legalization expands people's rights. Jim Crow laws was an arbitrary governmental restriction, legalization removes the arbitrary governmental restriction. If anything, you should be asking what if the Feds had Jim Crow laws and some state would say they would not support it anymore - is it good for Feds to try and force them to still abide by such laws?

Not that there is absolutely any evidence theres even 10% of voters in Mississippi - let alone 51% - that would really support instituting Jim Crow laws now. For starters, 37.5% of Mississippi population is African-American, and it would require 88% of white vote to achieve 51%. Are you seriously claiming 88% of Mississippi white population - I assume you don't go as far as assuming African-American citizens of Mississippi want to introduce Jim Crow laws - are not only fervently racist, but actually want Jim Crow laws? Any data to back that ridiculous assumption?

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by TylerE on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @05:07PM (#8564564)
30 years spent living in the deep south. Maybe it wouldn't hit 51% but I guarantee you it would be a lot higher than 10%. You're also assuming equal voter turnout and no voter suppresion. These are both, shall we say, optimistic.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smsm42 on Thursday November 06, 2014 @02:21AM (#8566101)
Of course, I'm pretty sure there are racists in the south - as well as everywhere else, this is a common mental malady, which, like lice, often manifests itself when proper hygiene is not maintained. However the claim that virtually all white population is so racist as to wish for return of Jim Crow laws feels a bit strong to me. As for voter turnout, it looks like specifically for Mississippi it's not that bad: http://www.governing.com/blogs/by-the-numbers/changes-in-vot... and actually white voters' numbers are lower than black voters', while overall turnout is one of the highest in the nation - it looks like MS citizens take their voting seriously. Overall, 82% turnout doesn't sound bad at all, and if the hypothetical vote would be on something as outrageous as Jim Crow laws, I would think these numbers would further increase.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by toyg on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @07:10PM (#8565069)
> Jim Crow laws limited people's rights, legalization expands people's rights. Jim Crow laws was an arbitrary governmental restriction, legalization removes the arbitrary governmental restriction.

As far as I know, those objections are irrelevant -- there is nothing saying "expanding people rights" or "removing governmental restrictions" are preferable compared to the opposite acts. As long as two acts of law both abide by US constitutional rules, they are equal in "goodness".

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smsm42 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @07:56PM (#8565235)
Well, maybe for you expanding rights and removing rights is the same thing. For me, it's not. Actually, I remember there was such thing as a Constitution where some guys wrote that people have the rights and government should be restricted in curtailing these rights, and they seemed to think that people's rights are preferable and government restrictions can be made only in specific limited areas. But what do they know? They're long dead anyway.

But let me ask you this: if for you it's the same, what problem you have with Jim Crow? After all, Jim Crow laws were approved by many courts and were considered very constitutional for a long time. So for you there was no problem with them? I know why I'd have problem with that - because they remove people's rights, and for only reason that they are of a "wrong" race. For me it's bad. But if for you there's no difference between people's right and government restrictions and one is not preferable to the other, what exactly is the problem there for you?

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by toyg on Thursday November 06, 2014 @07:30AM (#8566698)
> I remember there was such thing as a Constitution where some guys wrote that people have the rights and government should be restricted in curtailing these rights, and they seemed to think that people's rights are preferable and government restrictions can be made only in specific limited areas.

I think you're jumbling up various documents there.

> After all, Jim Crow laws were approved by many courts and were considered very constitutional for a long time. So for you there was no problem with them?

From a legal standpoint, no, there was no problem (well, except for state-sponsored school segregation, which was ruled unconstitutional). From my (and likely yours) moral and cultural standpoint, they were terrible and this eventually resulted in the act that abolished them all. Both the act that instituted them and the act that abolished them were perfectly legitimate in their own way.

Morality and law are different things. The former can provide impetus for forging the latter, but confusing them is a Bad Thing and it's what leads you to Iran.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by smsm42 on Thursday November 06, 2014 @08:03PM (#8570763)
No, what leads you to Iran is the stance "if it's legal then it's OK". There are a lot of things that are legal but not OK, and when pointed to something that is not OK arguing "but it is legal!" is exactly the confusion in which you implicate me. My argument is exactly that - that what the Feds are doing is immoral and makes no sense. "But separation of powers!" is an Iran-like answer to this, if you like such comparisons - it's just saying "who cares about moral if we have the laws that we ourselves crafted that allow us to do what we want".
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by toyg on Friday November 07, 2014 @06:21AM (#8572015)
> what leads you to Iran is the stance "if it's legal then it's OK".

Nope. What I said is that, if it's legal then it's OK from a legal perspective, which is a tautology really and I can't believe I'm still explaining it to you.

> "But separation of powers!" is an Iran-like answer to this

To the contrary, the Iranian answer is to implicate moral into everything so that the law has to answer to "superior values", and to be honest I struggle to understand how you could fail to see this (unless you don't really know how Iran runs -- hint: religious/moral authority trumps regular law).

Separation of powers starts with the "two swords" of religious and temporal power being handled in different ways by different people, back when these topics were first seriously discussed in Europe (one could argue that the "unto Caesar" line is the start of this particular debate, but it was basically ignored for centuries afterwards). When people realized that this separation alone was not enough of a guarantee, they split it further (roughly along Montesquieu's lines) exactly so that nobody could inflict its own personal moral code on the whole of the community without the community agreeing first. When the community changes its stance (because of moral or technical changes or whatever), then it collectively agrees that laws should change, and new law supersedes old law. This is how the system should work in a democratic society (which is not to say that's actually what happens, but it's the ideal we strive for, so to speak).

Law shouldn't answer to anything but future law. The US Constitution lives about most other laws, but it's still "just" law.

That is how progress is achieved and how we can all live together without starting religious wars every other day.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by TylerE on Thursday November 06, 2014 @09:41AM (#8567158)
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by harryh on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @09:44PM (#8565541)
I think the fact that this boggles your mind says a lot more about your inability to understand other people's point of view than it says about the policies of the federal government (or the government of Alaska for that matter).
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by rickdale on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:59AM (#8562765)
Wait until the pressure grows and then the coast guard will change their stance to, "we follow the local laws". This happened with the TSA in states with medical marijuana, even in Alaska. States rights, the fact that the people voted for it, is going to play a huge role going forward.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by robg on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:39AM (#8562641)
By air, as at airport security, has been policed as a local issue, not federal.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by quux on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:04PM (#8563565)
Once the plane leaves the ground it enters federal jurisdiction and medical marijuana is contraband. I learned this during training for my pilot's license. One of the examiners in my area liked to ask candidates about this during their oral examinations and all the instructors knew to make sure their students knew the right answer :)
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by mason55 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:48AM (#8562704)
Correct - if you're flying intra-California you are free to carry your medicine with you on the plane for example.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by jdmichal on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:32AM (#8562598)
I didn't think drug enforcement was a duty of the Coast Guard. Usually anything related to cargo and crew is the CBP's responsibility, while the Coast Guard is about safety (life-jackets and -boats, certifications, search and rescue, etc.).
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by dghughes on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:38AM (#8562634)
It's a drug and you're in or operating a vehicle I'd say it's no different than having an open bottle of alcohol.

Police in my province have been trained to spot DUI of drugs (besides alcohol) mostly pot since it seems many people think it's OK to drive stoned.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by birken on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:46AM (#8562691)
Having an open bottle of alcohol and drinking it is legal on a boat. You just can't be intoxicated.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by mkehrt on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @03:45PM (#8564129)
The USCG has several sets of classes of ships, informally known as black, white and red hull. Black does what you say, white does border patrol for drugs and people illegally entering the country, and red is scientific and icebreaking. See http://www.uscg.mil/proceedings/spring2011/articles/10_Tlapa...
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by mbillie1 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:39AM (#8562637)
In the Gulf of Mexico and the area around Florida, the Coast Guard does an enormous amount of drug-traffic-policing.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by jdmichal on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:57AM (#8562756)
Looks like there's a wide swathe of "homeland security" missions on top of the more traditional missions I was aware of, deemed "non-homeland security":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Coast_Guard#Missi...

I wonder how this all interacts with the CBP.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by webnrrd2k on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:29PM (#8563331)
Around here, Southern California, the Coast Guard regularly does drug interdiction duty. The boating safety stuff is usually done by the Harbor Patrol/Sheriff's Department.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by benologist on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @02:05PM (#8563573)
US Coast Guard patrols down here in Costa Rica all the time specifically hunting for drugs.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by mikecb on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @05:41PM (#8564702)
The Coast Guard has a very interesting set of law enforcement, military, and regulatory authorities.
[deleted]
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by jonnathanson on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:03AM (#8562412)
IANAL, but as far as I am aware, international borders fall under federal jurisdiction, not state. U.S. Border Patrol is a federal organization, for instance. Since marijuana is still illegal under federal law, I'd imagine that Alaska state law couldn't protect you in the event of a seizure. I don't have any personal experience attempting to bring weed across a federal border point, but my gut tells me it's not a great idea. Feds are still gung-ho about enforcement. In a federal trial, penalty for possession (any amount) is a misdemeanor, punishable by up to a $1,000 fine and 1 year in jail.

(Open to correction, enhancement, or clarification from anyone who is a lawyer, and/or who has experience in these matters).

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by kissickas on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:07AM (#8562435)
Sorry, I deleted my comment. It was originally asking about commerce across the border to Canada.

I deleted it because I just discovered that it's technically illegal in Canada; thought it was less murky than it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_history_of_cannabis_in_C...

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by phantom784 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:33AM (#8562609)
I'm curious as to how the Washington-Oregon border will be treated, since both states now have legal marijuana. Will the states allow marijuana from the other to cross over? Does "crossing the state line" make it easier to enforce federal anti-drug laws?
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:42AM (#8562665)
Does the federal govt monitoring the border become a friend of local ganja producers, effectively protecting the market for local growers?
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by jonnathanson on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:44AM (#8562679)
I really doubt there will be much trouble moving weed between WA and OR. Even during the period when it was legal in WA and illegal in OR, OR police pretty much turned a blind eye to interstate "tourists" on suspiciously short trips across the border and back. Now that both states have legalized weed, this will be even less of an issue.

And the likelihood that you run into a federal officer while crossing the WA/OR border is pretty slim.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by maxerickson on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @12:23PM (#8562900)
I guess the only times (in recent history anyway) that states vigorously defend their borders is when it impacts their tax revenues.

Are there big differences in how Washington and Oregon are taxing marijuana?

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by jonnathanson on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:07PM (#8563194)
Not sure. I have heard, interestingly enough, that there are federal taxes on the sale of marijuana. Which is weird, given that the federal government does not legally recognize one's right to buy or sell marijuana. These federal tax burdens are quite high, if the media reports are accurate:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/03/irs-lim...

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by arrosenberg on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @04:50PM (#8564493)
It's not that weird if you think about it - same line of reasoning is what finally got Al Capone. Legal or illegal, Uncle Sam always gets his.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by sv123 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @08:39PM (#8565365)
There is a huge difference in taxes, WA has some ridiculously expensive recreational pot (http://www.leafly.com/stateoftheleaf). Oregon's medical prices are the lowest in the country right now, retail will be more but not that much more.

Right now rec shops in Vancouver, WA are benefiting from their proximity to Portland, but that's going to flip around once Oregon is up and running.

Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by darshan on Saturday November 08, 2014 @12:55PM (#8577592)
From marijuana.oregon.gov:

  Q: Can I take marijuana into Washington where they also allow recreational marijuana?
  A: No. You can not take marijuana across state lines.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by mikestew on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @11:18AM (#8562494)
No need to be a lawyer, Washington residents have already been told not to try and bring back any BC bud across the border. EDIT: because one is entering the U.S. where it is illegal, not WA where it is legal. Once past the US border, one is then in the weed-friendly state of WA. /EDIT Conversely, our neighbors to the north have made it a point to remind WA residents that weed is still illegal in Canada. Source: stuff I tripped across while looking up border crossing procedure for a recent trip, which I could probably find again if I had to.
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by Mandatum on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @09:38PM (#8565524)
Local hydroponics would work fine here. Energy is Alaska cheap, a local store can setup a hydroponics shop pretty easily. Why import?
Re:Alaskans vote to legalize marijuana by Alex3917 on Wednesday November 05, 2014 @01:34PM (#8563369)
While this may technically be true, in practice the feds aren't going to charge you for personal possession unless they're specifically targeting you for some other reason. IIRC the feds usually don't charge you unless you have more than 100 kilograms.