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Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:18AM (#8137352)
TL;DR: Google is giving users what they want instead of what I want, please change this.

Seriously, what this guy wants is a search engine that promotes what he wants over what users want. He fails to understand that Google became popular specifically because it didn't do that.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by AJ007 on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:49AM (#8137545)
He's not happy that aggregators are outranking the hotel's official website. I think this is a very valid complaint. The money aggregators take is used to fund Google visibility (paid or free) rather than for the hotels to use on other things.

There have been times in the past were Google's listings definitely were bad, like the whole Demand Media/content "farm" fiasco. The model of writing low quality and outright false content has largely moved from the how to articles on to news now, for better or worse.

The bigger issue is mobile means less results. A few ads and one or two visible organic listings. Google has to milk the hell out of desktop users to make up for lost revenue. If we move to voice search its going to really be different. You either dominate or get nothing, no in between.

Google has a model that works and makes a lot of revenue. They will not and can not innovate because those innovations will destroy the model. It is the same for any entrenched legacy corporation. Search is a good area to do innovative work in today.

Update: One other note. It was always clear to me that Google's business model was to provide huge volumes of free traffic, and then remove it. If you didn't buy traffic and you relied on that free organic stuff you were asking for trouble. Many companies have ranked organically for a term. Expanded, took on long term liabilities, and then lost their rankings and failed. Most of the business owner Google complaints we hear come from those type of people. You give someone a free drip of heroin, and then take it away and ask them to pay. They will not be happy.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:08PM (#8137644)
Often, aggregators are more useful than any given hotel's website.

If I am looking to fly somewhere, I probably don't want to be taken to United's or American's homepage. I probably want Orbitz or Hipmunk or some other site that will give me the comparison tools to make my own decisions.

His mistake lies in assuming that a hotel's site offers more value to users than the aggregators.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by RichardDHH on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:57PM (#8137932)
You are quite correct on some points. If I book a cheap hotel for a few nights in a city even I use booking.com. If I book a weeks holiday for my family in a villa rental in far flung destination I want something else and I want to speak to the people with knowledge. Sad maybe but a lot of us like this!
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:00PM (#8137956)
The prevalence of aggregators suggests that a great many people prefer a system that lets them compare many options at once. That may be followed up by researching a handful of likely-seeming options more deeply, but few people with total ignorance are going to want to go directly to that. It's too time-consuming to start there.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by schucks on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:31PM (#8138140)
Well perhaps there's a bit of that, but perhaps the value add of a well researched and more personable site fits far better, but people are too often expecting choice as the number one driving force in their decision making process instead of being asked to make appropriate decisions on their own wishes.

For those people I suggest they consider their fundamental reason for taking a vacation in the first place.

I think the prevalence of aggregation on holiday sites is simply causality of these companies not having a clear direction for their business. After all, it's easy to aggregate everything with the money and time to do so. But where is the value add?

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:35PM (#8138171)
Being able to compare a lot of options and filter down to just a handful that interest you is very valuable. It handles discovery and filtering steps in one go. There's your value-add.

You're asking for consumers to make significant decisions in what to them will feel like a position of ignorance. And you're asking for it because you think it will be profitable for you. Do you understand why I'm skeptical of this?

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by AJ007 on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @03:15PM (#8138739)
I don't think anyone is saying aggregators should not show up.

Do a search for a local hotel. I just did one. I counted 3 aggregator ads above organic results. 6 aggregator ads on the side, 2 other hotel ads on the side.

Organic listing #1 is the hotel, that is good. 7 other results are aggregators. 1 is the hotel parent company, 1 is an unrelated hotel.

What happens if you are a niche travel site, or a local blog? Your not going to rank. Your business model is now more or less dead.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @04:03PM (#8139019)
I don't see the problem with that. Not all niche business models should be assumed to be indefinitely viable.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by sroerick on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:42AM (#8137508)
I don't think that's an accurate TL;DR.

He's saying that Google is a plutocracy, not a democracy.

I have an joke/axiom for social networks: "It's not really a social network if you can buy your way onto it."

A search engine follows the same principles. If I can pay a SEO professional to have my results promoted, then information is not truly being organized.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by kaoD on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:15PM (#8138061)
Your logic is flawed. Random results (which can't be gamed) are more organized by your standards.

I don't think so. It's the fact that results are organized what makes SEO possible.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by sroerick on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @03:56PM (#8138975)
This is a good point.

I don't think this statement is necessarily a good and logically sound axiom, and I think it applies to social networks more than search engines. I view it as a sort of a zen koan, in the vein of "It can't be all that avant garde if you're using a french word to describe it."

At the same time, I think this bears more scrutiny. Intent is important here. Your assumption is that Google organizes information, and that companies are organizing their information in a similar vein in order to facilitate better indexing. If this perfect world is the case, than your argument holds.

Unfortunately, I think the reality is frequently different. I think the vast majority of SEO use cases are not the organization of information, but rather the promotion of profitable information and damage control of potentially harmful informaion.

You may say to this that analyzing the motives of SEO is a deeply flawed venture, and you'd probably be right. But it is the difference between a system for organizing information and a beaurocracy which only a select few have the resources to navigate.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by kaoD on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @09:04PM (#8140416)
Actually I completely agreed with the social network idea, I just don't think it translates well to search engines. It would translate to evil-IAP games ;)

SEO is just gaming the system based on how search engines organize their corpus. It's a catch-22 situation, if you organize information, then somebody else can discover patterns in how you organize it and game the system. Based on that, I'd say SEO is evidence of organization.

To be fair, Google results have been very accurate for me lately (probably knows more about me than myself), specially since they use click and return rates in their ranking algorithm.

Is SEO really such a game-changer for non-tech people? Or am I being victim of SEO tactics without even being aware of it?

What amazes me is that you can actually "buy your way into Google" by paying ads... and it's the base of their business!

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:42AM (#8141194)
Bear in mind that SEO is the sort of thing that gets used as a bugbear to explain why a given business is not as popular as the owner feels it should be. Sometimes the problem really is SEO. Often it's something else.

By way of comparison, I read a story not long ago where a restaurant owner blamed some incorrect hours of operation data in Google Places for a major drop-off in his business. Yelp reviews, on the other hand, told a story of food and service quality going downhill...

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by asuffield on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:32AM (#8137427)
He goes a little further: he's objecting to the fact that Google is not acting as a "leveling" force to break up incumbent industries and change society. He appears to want them to act as a far-left government.

I don't really feel a need to rebut this desire, beyond saying "no".

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by anon1385 on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:42AM (#8137507)
It's kind of fascinating how the supposed economic and social benefits of the open web that people spent 20 years or more evangelising are dismissed as 'far-left' once powerful incumbents have cornered the market. Suddenly advocating for the destructive forces of open competition is the same as being a radical socialist.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:25PM (#8137740)
The problem here isn't that there isn't open competition. The problem is that he's lost at it.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by pessimizer on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:43PM (#8137838)
The problem is that it isn't competition on services or products, it's competition in gaming and/or just paying massive incumbent middlemen.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by schucks on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:57PM (#8138316)
This is succinct. It appears that the Google we had 10 years ago was perhaps valid in light of our ability to capitalise on 'the most valid results' and the Google we have today hasn't innovated on their search platform to break away from 'what corporates want us to find' into 'what we want to find'. We should expect more from our worlds most used search provider.

The travesty isn't even perhaps brought about by Google directly. It may in fact be a reluctance of people to question the status quo or at least be heard in doing so. If nothing else, this blog is exactly what people need to deliberate over without prejudice toward the writer, and perhaps some knowledge or value will come from that.

Whatever it is, we're left with a fairly opaque 10 site list that people rarely delve beyond. And I hear the complaints already from some, sure it ever so slightly customisable, but I certainly haven't cared to do so for years.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @04:07PM (#8139049)
Recall that Google's initial and ongoing innovation was moving away from what corporate entities want users to find. I think Google prioritizes what they believe users want to find and subject it to the review of user behavior.

The perceived problem with this is that what they think users wants doesn't always agree with what someone else thinks users want. Like in this article, where many users clearly want to see aggregators but the author believes they don't want to see aggregators.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by asuffield on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:50PM (#8143804)
I think you will find that the reason why big brands are big brands is because a lot of people do, in reality, want to find them. Just because I don't want to find the same things doesn't stop that from being the most popular choice. Google would appear to be delivering what the bulk of its users want to see.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:49PM (#8137871)
Who provide value to the consumer that individual business sites do not. Why shouldn't they be more highly ranked?
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by pessimizer on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:06PM (#8138004)
>Who provide value to the consumer that individual business sites do not.

You're reciting this as if it's obviously true, yet offering no evidence. If a scraper beats a site, it's not a logical conclusion that the scraper was more useful to the consumer than the original site.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:07PM (#8138011)
How many hotel sites offer price comparisons to other hotels nearby? That's value right there.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by sroerick on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:47AM (#8137534)
He's raising the observation that the easier it is to game Google, the less useful Google becomes.

He's not prescribing a solution. Much less the solution of Google becoming a "far-left government."

But screw equality and open access, right?

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by asuffield on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @01:58PM (#8143854)
Read the article carefully and you'll see that he does in fact prescribe a "solution": take search results away from entities who have lots of them and hand them out equally to everybody, so that everybody gets a "fair" amount of users directed to their site.

...which would of course render it utterly useless to those users and destroy any value it has as a search engine.

He even states that his main objection to Google search is that it is not acting as an artificial "leveller" to change society.

This is the manifesto of a far-left government. Google doesn't do these things because it's neither far-left nor a government, and his request is both poorly thought-out and quite bizarre.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by rtperson on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:37PM (#8137791)
> He's not proscribing a solution.

The word you want is "prescribe." To "proscribe" means to make forbidden or illegal. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by sroerick on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:13PM (#8138047)
Whoops, thanks.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:10PM (#8137654)
Search engines are by their very nature un-equal. There's no way around this without removing the value in having a search engine.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by sroerick on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:34PM (#8137781)
His point, and something I agree with, is that the easier gamification becomes, the less useful a search engine becomes.

I don't know if this is true for everyone. It probably isn't. (at least it isn't immediately obvious.)

But for the author it is, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by walterbell on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:21PM (#8137711)
Some search engines, e.g. Google 7 years ago, are less un-equal than others, e.g. Google today.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:25PM (#8137734)
The job of a search engine is to second-guess your desire from limited inputs and try to fulfill it. I can't think of any sane way to be "equal" about that without relying on a lot of subjective judgments. Or being bad at making decisions.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by walterbell on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:59PM (#8137941)
Is the strategic priority of Google leadership a subjective judgement? Are these subjective judgements objectively implemented? There are always winners and losers for any given ranking algorithm, the question is whether perception of neutrality has improved or declined in the last 7 years.

What is the perception of Google's neutrality in enforcement of rules against traffic arbitrage, e.g. search toolbars: http://www.benedelman.org/news/012213-1.html ?

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:02PM (#8137973)
Almost anyone who loses out will perceive things as being subjectively against them. Almost anyone who wins will perceive it as being a sign of their worthiness and objective value.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by sroerick on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:15PM (#8138056)
Yeah, but who is making those decisions?

Google? SEO agents? Large multinational corporations?

Wikipedia is subjective too, that doesn't mean that they just give in and let PR people manage the thing.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:36PM (#8138179)
Among other things, they pay attention to whether or not the user comes back to look at results again. So in a significant way, it's the market.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by bsenftner on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:46AM (#8137529)
Actually, what I read him saying is that none of the businesses in his industry can get a listing within their industry. His point is that intermediate "marketplaces" inject themselves into an industry and then control consumer access to that industry's products. These "marketplaces" are not actually in these industries - they are in the internet business aggregate industry, and serve the consumers very poorly, because after all the consumer is NOT their customer, their customer is their investors.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by RichardDHH on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:54PM (#8137897)
Users, specifically in this industry, often don;t find what they want. They find what the aggregator wants them to find, that's more often that not margin generated!
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:56PM (#8137924)
Then perhaps what you actually need is a better aggregator rather than denying the value of aggregators.

It's almost like what Google did that made it popular!

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by spanishlady on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @11:23AM (#8142908)
'a better aggregator' in what sense, exactly?

Better for the consumer would be an aggregator which ranked properties qualitatively (first page for those with clearly genuine and excellent reviews) with those which do not get such good ratings further down the list even if they are more profitable for the aggregator.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by pessimizer on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:42PM (#8137820)
>Google is giving users what they want

In what way? How did the size of SEO and marketing budgets somehow become the result of consumer desire rather than a manipulation of it?

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @12:48PM (#8137862)
His complaint seems to be that users are shown links for aggregators rather than links for individual hotels.

I don't know about you, but when I google "Las Vegas hotels", I don't want to be shown Rio, Palms, Bally's, or Mandalay Bay at the top. I want an aggregator so I can compare and make my own decision. The same applies to flights - there's a reason I use Hipmunk and Orbitz instead of united.com.

Aggregators can offer more value to a shopping consumer than a hotel's site does. That's why Google is giving users what they generally want - a shopping user wants the ability to make comparisons.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by pessimizer on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:03PM (#8137977)
>I don't know about you, but when I google "Las Vegas hotels", I don't want to be shown Rio, Palms, Bally's, or Mandalay Bay at the top. I want an aggregator so I can compare and make my own decision.

I don't. I'm not sure why you assume your opinion is universal. I want a bunch of hotels and their marketing pitches, then I want to go to my favorite aggregator to price compare.

All having the aggregators come up does is create an aggregation tax that every vendor has to pay - and each aggregator gives me a limited view of the market while giving the impression that it is the entire thing e.g. the lowest price on Orbitz is the lowest price amongst the people who pay Orbitz, not the lowest price, and since Orbitz takes a fee, businesses that pay Orbitz are going to be marginally higher cost than businesses who don't.

Those aggregators are just more gatekeepers. I prefer aggregators that perform a function for me, and are beholden to me only.

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by Kalium on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @01:06PM (#8138003)
I think that way because it's the common shopping experience that consumer life is based around. It's familiar to most people.

When you shop, do you only do business with companies that sell only their own products? Or do you buy your groceries form a store that carries multiple brands of milk?

Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by spanishlady on Wednesday August 06, 2014 @03:32AM (#8141445)
I think the writer is referring to the vacation rental industry not to hotels, which is a different ballgame altogether and where customers DO want to make comparisons and often to make decisions which are purely priced-based, for convenience. In the holiday rental business the quality of the experience for the customer should be at the top of the agenda, and this is where the aggregators have got it totally wrong, in their search for shareholder value. If you search in one of the big sites the first several pages are occupied by those properties which are going to bring the most revenue to the aggregator and which in many cases are in turn inventory provided by another site with little or no knowledge of the individual properties. You will probably never get tot he well managed properties with many 5 star reviews owned by individuals who care about your holiday experience because they are not worth as much to the aggregator so they are right at the bottom of the lists. If the aggregator cared about your holiday they would be at the top and possibly over the long term this would bring him more revenue because travellers would come to know that they could find the best properties quickly. You also cannot get to actually speak to an owner of any of the properties on the several first pages because they are all on commission rather than subscription and obviously they don't want you bypassing their system and paying the owner. Long term this is very bad for the industry and in particular for guests.
Re:Dear Google, I am writing an open letter from the search ... by sunnykgupta on Tuesday August 05, 2014 @11:24AM (#8137387)
Sensible summarisation.