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Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by rayiner on Friday May 30, 2014 @12:50PM (#7822767)
I bought (well my parents bought) FFVI (III in the U.S.) and Secret of Mana for I believe $80 each in 1993-94. That's $127 in today's money. The standard SNES cart was like $50, or $80 in today's money. Games have gotten a lot cheaper even as game budgets have exploded.
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by hibikir on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:44PM (#7823048)
Let's remember that those games came in cartridges that were very expensive to manufacture. As games got physically bigger in the SNES, the prices had to go up, just to pay for the hardware.

After the SNES era, we saw how Playstation games were quite a bit cheaper than N64 games, but it had nothing to do with Nintendo wanting to make more money per copy: It had to do with the fact that pressing CDs was cheap as dirt, so the game developer would get as much money, per copy, despite a cheaper price.

With the switch to downloadable, we can save even more than that: The cut from the retailer, the distributor, the box manufacturing... You could cut at least $20 from a game, easily, and still get the publisher the same cut.

If you want to talk about game pricing without dealing with fixed non-development costs, you are comparing apples and oranges, on purpose.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by rayiner on Friday May 30, 2014 @02:23PM (#7823242)
I don't see how manufacturing cost is relevant. If a game is worth $60, you as a consumer don't care how that number gets divvied up amongst the people involved.
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by genericuser on Friday May 30, 2014 @03:18PM (#7823468)
Because manufacturing cost and other costs that are a direct per unit cost, as opposed to an over all sunk cost like development, can not be recouped by 'making up for it with volume' as they say.

So a company selling such games will have a higher price floor than games without those costs, and due to that floor may not be able to achieve a profit maximizing profit maximizing point that a game without those costs may be able to achieve (such as selling 100 million games at $1 each). Their entire set of optimal production possibilities would probably be shifted inward.

Not saying a consumer should factor this in, just the game maker has a restriction on the consumers they can target that they would not have without those costs.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by anigbrowl on Friday May 30, 2014 @03:12PM (#7823438)
I do. Little factors like that may well nudge me one way or the other if it's something that I'm not sure about buying. In economic terms this is somewhat irrational, but then economics' assumption that the consumer is fully aware of his/her utility function/ There are lots of situations where this is not the case - have you never gone into a bookstore without having a clear idea of what you wanted to read?
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by chilldream on Friday May 30, 2014 @02:35PM (#7823299)
The creators sure care if they can make back their development costs or not.
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by brucehart on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:12PM (#7822898)
Yes, I distinctly remember trying to convince my Mom in 1992 that paying $75 for the SNES version of Street Fighter II was worth the money. That was more than 20 years ago and it's still expensive for a game by today's standards.
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by adamors on Friday May 30, 2014 @12:57PM (#7822811)
They may have gotten cheaper if you count it like that, but standard SNES games were not riddled with bugs on release day.

(On PC at least) it's quite common for a AAA game to launch riddled with bugs. Recently it was Watch_Dogs which costs 60€ on Steam, yet it has a lot of performance issues, the publishers client has connectivity problems etc.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by incision on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:07PM (#7822867)
Coincidentally, the above-mentioned Secret of Mana is notorious for wacky NPC AI and pathfinding.

Today, that could be handled with a patch and the lovely multiplayer could be enjoyed online.

I don't doubt that the release of unfinished products is a real issue, but there are trade-offs in most things.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by tibbon on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:14PM (#7822905)
And FF III has a lot of weird bugs and glitches as well. I remember about half the games on PC I had in the 80's and 90's I just never could get working on my system or had really weird flaws/quirks (especially things that used a modem).

Bugs certainly aren't new

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by chc on Friday May 30, 2014 @02:25PM (#7823252)
Bugs aren't new, but I sure run into them a lot more these days.
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by meritt on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:17PM (#7822925)
Small plug for a modern game that's created very much in the style of SoM: http://www.secretsofgrindea.com/

In beta/pre-order now. Steam Greenlight. Small + very dedicated team.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by rayiner on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:06PM (#7822860)
So the problem is not that $60 is insane for a game, but rather that games these days are crap?
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by Goronmon on Friday May 30, 2014 @02:23PM (#7823243)
So the problem is not that $60 is insane for a game, but rather that games these days are crap?

I think it's more that when releasing any given game, you aren't just trying to sell people on "Our game is worth $60." you also have to sell "You are better off spending $60 on our game than on all the other games you can currently buy for $60 or less."

Plus, if games these days are crap, I don't even think there are words to describe the relative awfulness of the games I played in my childhood on the NES.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by venomsnake on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:41PM (#7823029)
AAA these days are crap. The majority of them. When you scale the team to a thousand people on 4 continents you are doomed to slide into mediocrity. Too many moving parts, too many demands to satisfy, too much content to be able to polish it effectively, budgets that don't allow innovation and risk taking. You know Assassin's Creed 3 in all of its boring shining. In the indie and mobile there are gems of pure brilliance for fraction of the price.

The only AAA title so far this year that game me good value for money was Reaper of Souls, mostly because devs listened to the public and for a change made the right decisions.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by com2kid on Friday May 30, 2014 @05:23PM (#7824174)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law

The majority of games have always been crap. Nothing is new. Rose tinted glasses mean we only remember the good games.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by tibbon on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:14PM (#7822913)
I personally don't think the average quality has decreased much. I remember tons of absolutely terrible NES games.
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by Wohui on Friday May 30, 2014 @02:03PM (#7823147)
Games these days are insignificant experiences for people who've already played plenty of them. Taking Secret of Mana, that was surely the first game at all of its kind that I'd played. But I'd barely part with any money to buy an RPG today. Games today have a much harder job being original, and tend to be shameless in their lack of originality anyhow.
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by adamors on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:22PM (#7822947)
Crap at launch at least. After a year most bugs get ironed out but ironically, the price drops as well.
Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by mhurron on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:36PM (#7823009)
With very, very few exceptions, I don't buy games until the price drops. Usually I don't consider them until they drop below $40.

$60 is too much for a game.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by moggflunkies on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:14PM (#7822908)
Standard SNES games didn't do anything relative to todays games. Watch Dogs can be digitally downloaded, played in multi languages, with thousands of players, etc. All things that the SNES while more expensive couldn't do.

If you apply your logic to the automotive world we should just stick with the single barrel carburetor V8 Chevrolets because, otherwise we just end up with BMW's iDrive issues and Prius throttle problems.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by adamors on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:21PM (#7822941)
> Watch Dogs can be digitally downloaded, played in multi languages, with thousands of players, etc.

While that is certainly true, all of those amount to nothing if you cannot download the game at all or if the game is constantly stuttering.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by chc on Friday May 30, 2014 @02:29PM (#7823272)
Downloading is just a delivery medium, a number of SNES games included more than one language, and you cannot meaningfully play Watch Dogs with thousands of players. (I mean, yes, thousands of people are playing the game simultaneously, but you don't concurrently interact with all of them. Most people are playing their own game, not playing with you. This is the same as SNES games.)

So I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw here.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by moggflunkies on Friday May 30, 2014 @03:26PM (#7823509)
Replace Watch Dogs with any game you wish and the point still remains.

In 1990 you had a game that was 1-2 players, 16 bit, no upgrades/updates in content or playability, no versatility in mediums, limited scope of possible actions within the game itself. In 2014 you can play with a number of players greater than 2, a few more colors, constant updates in content and playability, easy played on any number of platforms and a drastically increased set of possible actions within the game.

You are frustratingly trying to explain that a narrow capability system with great stability is greater than a wide capability system with a decrease in stability.

I will be driving a car that breaks down every couple months and you can continue to ride your skateboard everywhere.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by Dylan16807 on Saturday May 31, 2014 @03:00PM (#7826905)
Most games are still 1-2 players.

The ability to update a game later means that QA can be less thorough, this makes things cheaper.

Versatility in mediums? Having the choice between download and DVD is much cheaper than any cartridge. Or wait you're talking about platforms? There have always been multiplatform games. And being multiplatform means you expand your audience perhaps 50% while using the same art assets and a lot of the same code; that doesn't make a game's price higher at all. The amount of code you can share keeps rising, too.

So while games are prettier and more complicated, with art and animation getting crazily expensive, talking about convenience features like translations and downloads and patches is a red herring.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by macspoofing on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:36PM (#7823008)
>They may have gotten cheaper if you count it like that, but standard SNES games were not riddled with bugs on release day.

HA!

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by jiggy2011 on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:22PM (#7822945)
Back in the 90s PC games were full of bugs, even AAA games. There were a few exceptions like Doom etc but there were quite a few games I didn't finish because of bugs or corrupted saves. Alone in the dark 2 springs to mind.

Games also often came on multiple CDs , scratch one CD and that's the end of the game.

Re:The lessons of Bulletstorm and the problem with price-points by b3b0p on Friday May 30, 2014 @01:26PM (#7822965)
Don't forget the NEO GEO AES. I wanted the Gold System, MSRP $649.99 and each game was usually around $200 or more.

I have some N64 games that still have the price tag on them from Toys R Us, Sears, or Target. One or two say $89.99 on them. I distinctly remember Street Fighter II: The World Warrior being $75 at Target when it was first released. I had to beg mom like I never begged before to get it.

I'd still pay these prices too, if, and only if, we didn't have the digital DRM, online requirements, bugs, patches, etc. that plague today's games. I realize though that today's games are far more complex probably and that's part of the problem.