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Re:Summers on Piketty by nugget on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @02:06PM (#7779762)
Read Tyler Cowan's critique of Piketty which was just published today. My favorite bit is near the end, where Cowan reinforces that by Piketty's own admission, the proposed wealth tax would shift up to 75% of national income to the Government: ''Therein lies the most fundamental problem with Piketty’s policy proposals: the best parts of his book argue that, left unchecked, capital and capitalists inevitably accrue too much power -- and yet Piketty seems to believe that governments and politicians are somehow exempt from the same dynamic.''

I took a class from a famous economics professor who had emigrated from the former Soviet Union after its collapse. He made the point one day that there have always been rich and poor - and always will be. In America, the predominant distinction is capital wealth - dollars. In the USSR, it was political power; if you had political power, you had private planes, villas, and servants. At the end of the day, the inequality is always present.

Link: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141218/tyler-cowen/ca...

Re:Summers on Piketty by mncolinlee on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @02:44PM (#7779976)
Interesting enough, Thomas Paine argued the exact opposite in his famous pamphlet arguing for Social Security. Paine is that American revolutionary you always see quoted at anti-tax rallies. His pamphlet on Social Security shared the same conclusions as Piketty's "Capital" except written two centuries earlier.

"It is wrong to say God made rich and poor; He made only male and female, and He gave them the earth for their inheritance." -- Thomas Paine, On Agrarian Justice

http://www.ssa.gov/history/paine4.html

The Social Security system Paine advocated was more targeted to 21 year olds and was designed to offer everyone opportunity at the height of their lives. While he also theorized keeping the elderly from poverty, it was not the core idea of his plan.

Re:Summers on Piketty by panarky on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @02:50PM (#7780010)
> there have always been rich and poor - and always will be

Yes, and Jesus said[1] "ye have the poor always with you."

Likewise, there will always be crime, and disease, and suffering.

But do you agree that extreme inequality is a bad outcome? That putting more and more wealth and power into the hands of fewer and fewer monopolists and oligopolists is toxic to democracy and freedom?

If so, then working to reduce extreme inequality is a noble cause just like reducing crime, disease and suffering is worthwhile.

Even if these maladies will always be with us.

[1] http://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/26.htm#6

Re:Summers on Piketty by nugget on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @03:17PM (#7780158)
Let's say I live in a 1000 sq ft house and everyone else in my town lives in a 500 sq ft house; there is a certain level of inequality. Years pass, the economy rumbles on, we invent new products and more efficient services, and now I live in a 5000 sq ft mcmansion, and everybody else lives in 1000 sq ft houses.

Inequality has increased, but the net standard of living has increased as well. Objectively, everyone is better off. Of course, some people may feel poorer because now they see the mcmansion on the hill and wonder why they don't live in that level of luxury (which didn't even exist before).

Most economists seem to credit capitalism with the extreme advancements in quality of life, even for the poorest citizens, in first world economies. Sometimes the problem isn't inequality but envy and jealousy - I believe the Bible speaks to these two emotions as well.

Re:Summers on Piketty by jljljl on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @04:54PM (#7780717)
This is not how inequality has developed, however. If you look at the changes of real in come between the top percentile income brackets vs. the median percentile income bracket, top incomes have grown dramatically while median to lower incomes have stagnated.

It's also challenging to just look at consumption and assume everyone is the same. Consumption levels might be stable, but the lower income brackets may be taking on more debt to finance that consumption.

Additionally, as Pikketty points out, a lot of the spending/benefit gap between higher and lower incomes has emerged in categories like education and healthcare, which is not as easy to track by looking at people's houses or a consumption based standard of living.

Re:Summers on Piketty by shiven on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @03:32PM (#7780246)
... now I live in a 5000 sq ft mcmansion, and everybody else lives in 1000 sq ft houses.

So what did you do so special that you get a 5-fold increase in your living area and what did others do so wrong that they got a 2-fold increase only?

Sometimes the problem isn't inequality but envy and jealousy - I believe the Bible speaks to these two emotions as well.

The part that grinds on the human psyche is just a plain old sense of fairness and justice. Why muddy it up with religion?

Re:Summers on Piketty by timtas on Friday May 23, 2014 @09:27AM (#7789221)
If I experience a 2-fold increase, and it's "grinding on my psyche" that that someone else got a 5-fold increase, you can bet it's because someone with something to gain is whispering discontent into my ear.
Re:Summers on Piketty by shiven on Wednesday May 28, 2014 @09:29AM (#7809767)
Or, I see the ever-widening gap with my own eyes? Not requiring the use of my ears at all.
Re:Summers on Piketty by anigbrowl on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @05:28PM (#7780881)
IT's just as likely that people will still be in 500 square foot houses or that most of them will have been subdivided into 250 foot apartments while a small number of people have bought 2000 foot houses. People certainly do not always end up better in absolute terms.

Furthermore, relative gains matter because they say something an individual's economic standing in society. Your average person's quality of life might have improved significantly compared to a generation ago, but so has that of everyone else, with whom one is in economic competition. It's great than an iPad of 2014 is many, many times more powerful and costs less than a Mac of 1984, but having a Mac in 1984 gave you a significant economic edge, whereas owning an iPad today just means that you're not poor. Notwithstanding the enormous technical superiority of the current device, its economic utility depends on how well you can leverage it in today's economy, not of an earlier one where such a device would have been miraculous and allowed you to take over a small country.

Re:Summers on Piketty by yummyfajitas on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @10:17PM (#7781796)
If you believe people have not ended up better in absolute terms, what good or service do they have less of today than in the past?
Re:Summers on Piketty by MisterBastahrd on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @08:31PM (#7781530)
Now let's say you have 5 times the political influence. Is everyone still better off, or just you?
Re:Summers on Piketty by jessaustin on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @03:21PM (#7780178)
Jesus said "ye have the poor always with you."

I'm not a Christian anymore so I care less than I once would have, but your biblical interpretation is goofy. (It may still be common?) The context of that statement by Jesus was that he had just gotten a nice rubdown with an expensive oil, and people criticized the nice lady who gave him the rubdown for wasting money that could have been given to a soup kitchen. Jesus told them not to sweat it because he only had so much time left in which to receive rubdowns, while the homeless dudes weren't going anywhere. The very next sentence in the text says, "but you will not always have me."

Re:Summers on Piketty by timtas on Friday May 23, 2014 @09:14AM (#7789150)
No, "working to reduce inequality" is most certainly NOT a noble cause. Working to increase prosperity, especially of the poorest, that is the noble cause.

We have seen again and again that policies, programs and revolutions aimed at "reducing inequality" succeed only in increasing the misery of all and especially the poor who suffer the most from any absolute declines.

Those who perpetrate such evil on mankind always seem take their failure well, resting easy on the nobility of their intentions. In their own minds, their moral rightness excuses their mathematical error. They believe output to be an independent variable, immune from effect by their policies. But far from immune, it is hypersensitive.

We have known for a very very long time that the type of order that causes the prosperity of mankind to shoot skyward, enriching all in absolute terms, can also, to our moral horror, enrich some more than others. Our graphs an charts usually fail to show that it also greatly increases mobility; hardly anyone stays poor across generations. The only thing that can keep people poor are programs designed to reduce inequality.

Of course, there are certain policies that do create inequalities which could be unwound without shrinking output. To name a couple: debasement of money by central banks, corporatism (cronyism + bailouts). These simply transfer wealth from poor to rich without creating any value.

Re:Summers on Piketty by alexeisadeski3 on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @04:02PM (#7780452)
Wealth does not equal political power in our world.

The Bushes and Clintons did not derive political power from wealth. Likewise, their great political power does not bestow upon them great wealth (though they certainly are wealthy, they're not in the same universe of, say, Donald Sterling).

And those with wealth, such as the much discussed Koch brothers? Their influence on policy seems to be near zero. Bill Gates had his company dragged through the mud several times.

Re:Summers on Piketty by mikeyouse on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @09:53PM (#7781732)
> The Bushes and Clintons did not derive political power from wealth. > though they certainly are wealthy, they're not in the same universe of, say, Donald Sterling.

GWB's great grandfather was a wealthy industrialist that was business partners with one of the wealthiest people in the country, E.H. Harriman (Director of Union Pacific, Southern Pacific, and Wells Fargo). GWB's grandfather, Prescott, made his fortune as VP and Partner at Brown Brothers Harriman, a bank that eventually would employ Prescott's son George HW Bush, as well as Alan Greenspan and several other senators and cabinet members. BBH spun out a division that was ultimately Drexel Burnham Lambert -- the 5th largest I-Bank in the country until Michael Milken blew it up. HW Bush's maternal grandfather started an investment bank that was eventually sold to Merrill Lynch, and was also a director at Harriman brothers. HW's maternal grandfather was president of McCall's (publisher of Popular Mechanics, Redbook, and McCalls before selling them to Hearst).

George HW Bush's business career started at an oil equipment company, Dresser Industries a subsidiary of BBH, where his father had been Director for 20 years. Dresser formed a spin-out JV with Ingersol-Rand and still operates as Dresser-Rand (Mkt Cap: $4.5B). Dresser Industries would go on to be purchased by Halliburton via a Dick Cheney-negotiated deal for ~$8 billion. Some years later, HW Bush would co-found Zapata Petroleum Corporation (with a recently retired CIA agent) and Zapata Offshore (funded largely by Phillip Graham, the owner of WaPo), which he would lead until 1966. Zapata Petroleum became Pennzoil (worth an estimated $4.2B in 1998). Zapata Offshore would eventually rebrand as Harbinger Group (Mkt Cap: $2.4B).

Zapata has a great history if anyone's in the mood for some conspiracy theories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbinger_Group.

Tl;dr:

* Most of their SEC and disclosure records from the 1960's were accidentally destroyed just after HW Bush was appointed to be VP.

* Zapata owned off-shore rigs that served as bases of operations for anti-Castro missions

* The CIA's official codenames for the three boats used in the Bay of Pigs invasion were was actually 'Barbara', 'Houston', and 'Zapata'.

* Within 24 Hours of JFK's assassination, before he had ever ran for office, HW Bush is mentioned by name in a memo prepared by J. Edgar Hoover.

* Bill Liedtke, co-founder of Zapata Petroleum, and then-current Chairman of Pennzoil, personally flew nearly $1M of money laundered through a Mexican bank, to DC to beat the impending campaign finance disclosure midnight deadline on behalf of Richard Nixon. $89,000 of that money ended up in the bank account of one of the Watergate burglars.

George W. Bush, much like Donald Sterling, owned a Major Sports Franchise, though granted it was with an ownership group that only netted him tens of millions when it was sold. I'll ignore all the earlier failures GWB saw when he was backed by US and Saudi billionaires (William Draper, Lewis Leherman, Salem bin Laden, Khalid bin Mahfouz).

So I guess being scions to a family that's spawned multiple billion dollar businesses with activities in banking, venture capital, machinery, railroads, oil and gas, and airlines and being family friends with billionaies had nothing to do with their political power?

Re:Summers on Piketty by alexeisadeski3 on Thursday May 22, 2014 @01:52AM (#7782320)
According to the internet, the combined net worth of both GWB AMD GWHB is $40MM. Not a lot in the big scheme of things.

It lists $80MM for Clinton.

Re:Summers on Piketty by pyoung on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @06:30PM (#7781143)
The Koch bothers essentially own an entire political party. While their political contributions and influence has not resulted in any major changes in policy and legislation in recent years, they have successfully prevented a popular (at time of election) democratic president from making any major impact on policy. After the 2012 elections, a lot of press was written about how much money was spent on Republican elections and how little success resulted. But if you look at the House of Representatives, despite the fact that overall, more votes were democratic, the Republicans still walked away with a clear majority of seats thanks to redistricting. And of course, the majority in the house allows Republicans to obstruct just about anything.

If the Koch brothers weren't getting a return on their political contributions, I highly doubt they would continue to do so. After the recession there was a big push for wall st regulation, higher taxes on the 1%, and increases in welfare program funding, and yet nothing meaningful came from it despite popular support. My guess is the Koch brothers consider that a success.

Re:Summers on Piketty by timtas on Friday May 23, 2014 @09:34AM (#7789256)
Just to add a little balance:

"...it's almost impossible to quantify whether the Koch brothers or Soros dominate this political realm. That said, both the Kochs and Soros have spent incredible riches in this area with no sign of stopping."

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/09/opensecrets-battle--...

Re:Summers on Piketty by dragonwriter on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @04:43PM (#7780660)
> The Bushes and Clintons did not derive political power from wealth.

In the latter case that's pretty clearly true, at least as to their own wealth (as the Clintons weren't particularly wealthy independently of their political success), in the former case, not so much.

Re:Summers on Piketty by anigbrowl on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @05:59PM (#7781011)
You're right, but lack of wealth does correlate with an absence of political power. Bill Gates having his company dragged through the mud didn't exactly result in ruin for himself or his shareholders, just a deceleration in their rate of gain.

I don't agree that the Koch's influence on policy is near-zero, though nor do I think they have the entire GOP in their pocket as the Democrats like to imagine. They're not stupid, they expect a return on their political investment. I'm guessing they've done OK out of subsidies, if nothing else.

I don't mean to be partisan here, you couold say the same thing about various union groups.

Re:Summers on Piketty by yummyfajitas on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @03:05PM (#7780094)
You are conflating "extreme inequality" and "putting more and more wealth and power into the hands of fewer and fewer monopolists and oligopolists". They are not necessarily the same thing.

Since inequality does not intrinsically harm anyone (unlike crime and disease), we can only evaluate the nobility of reducing inequality by it's consequences. So what, pray tell, are the intrinsically harmful consequences of inequality?

Re:Summers on Piketty by tcc2161 on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @05:30PM (#7780892)
While the famous economics prof's point makes sense, I don't believe inequality has to be inevitable. "The always will be" argument could have been applied to slavery for most of human history, and while it's true slavery remains a problem in the present day (ie human trafficking) it is not now treated as inevitable nor is it officially condoned.

The definition of poverty also shifts ... in North America today everyone has a tv, and probably a computer, all of which could be considered luxury goods at points in the past - no one lives today like the poor of a hundred years ago, but we still have people who we consider poor, and who consider themselves poor.

Re:Summers on Piketty by barrkel on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @05:47PM (#7780957)
Of course inequality is always present. That's not an argument against anything.

But does it always need to grow without bound? Is it the same in all countries - and if not, why not? And how does welfare for the worst off change with different amounts of inequality?

Re:Summers on Piketty by bjt on Wednesday May 21, 2014 @04:39PM (#7780640)
Judging by the dates on the comments, Cowen's review came out more like a month ago.