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Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by thrownaway2424 on Saturday January 18, 2014 @04:34PM (#7082323)
So what I'm reading here is why CEOs shouldn't go to the office on weekends and check their mail at dinner. What's glaringly absent from the second part of this article is not asking the engineers to come in on weekends, either. Those guys have families and their negligible equity certainly doesn't justify 80-hour weeks. It sounds to me like the author would rather have gone home on weekends while the engineers stayed at the office.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by 001sky on Saturday January 18, 2014 @06:11PM (#7082657)
What's glaringly absent from the second part of this article is not asking the engineers to come in on weekends, either.

Exactly. The culture should be 'everybody else' works 80 hours a week and dealts with a nasty commute? But the CEO, lives a couple blocks away and blocks out time here and there to play with his kids...? Ok, There is certainly nothing wrong with this advice for CEOs, but the question goes begging as to wether or not such a "game theoretic" outcome is stable if the strategy is pursued by a broader set of employees. One clue, of course, is in the original story...where work/life balance is a "value" to the company...and the c-level execs are all washing their cars and feeding them pizza...while the engineering team they slave away...on the weekends in the cubicle farm...missing kids ball-games and family meals...etc. WTF. That's one heck of an 'omission' from the problems that face the CEO. And in one sense it is also incredibly narcissistic (literal sense), to be "fixing" your own problems but not those of your team at work. It's so bizzarre I'm not sure I didn't mis-understand something? It seems a glaring error in the essay not to reconcile this part of the plotline. I do give him credit for having at least woven part of it into the story, however.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by ececconi on Saturday January 18, 2014 @07:20PM (#7082861)
Got the same impression.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by burgreblast on Sunday January 19, 2014 @04:23AM (#7083936)
I wonder if you might have skipped or didn't relate to the 50% - 75% travel part.

In my experience it's not the travel, per se, even though the jet lag can be killer. It means being On 100% of the time you're away. The raw number of hours of being Always On for your company--around the world, with different people in different contexts--creates an emotional distance to one's family, because your mental world becomes intensely focused and 100% only on work, and work issues. Product issues, team, management, all that you can balance, but being on the road is the chaos of (enterprise) customers. They may love you, but they're needy. And all the time you're together, you're considering every word, and interaction to drive to a preferred outcome. It's never a "dinner". It's part of a never-ending orchestration to achieve specific outcomes.

Coming off of /those/ trips, he should have re-engaged with his family, but the challenge is the trips exhaust your mental and (jet lag) physical energy. Re-engaging with family means another "on" time, but it also means the expensive context switch from being able to talk business any time any where, in any state--leaving that mental zone-- to talk about family issues.

No, I don't get the sense he meant only engineers should work hard and CEOs should play with their kids.

I think the message is CEO's should consider forcing family-life onto their schedule, instead of being 100% consumed by work.

Yes, there are other pressing issues, and you might not be able to predict the value, but Scott says take it from someone who has gone though the struggle--it pays dividends at home, and at work.

I can relate.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by ececconi on Sunday January 19, 2014 @09:54AM (#7084551)
I'm just surprised he didn't say anything about making his subordinates work less. He said the company had a work life balance policy, then talked about how the engineers were always in on the weekends.

PS-- I'm on the road every Mon thru Thursday and pretty much live in a hotel. I didn't relate to this pierce. It's. Rey possible, then, I don't have the skills to be a CEO.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by marvin on Sunday January 19, 2014 @02:35PM (#7085618)
It's just lip service. The impression I get from reading Hacker News is that practically no SV company has anything resembling a work-life balance. And the "choose your own vacation time" companies are in reality anything but. It's completely disingenious.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by ececconi on Sunday January 19, 2014 @02:56PM (#7085707)
I like it a lot better when people say it like it is. Makes me better aware of the situation I'm in and the expectations on me.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by vasilipupkin on Saturday January 18, 2014 @11:51PM (#7083422)
I believe you guys misunderstood him. I think he is not saying he should not have done those 100 plus hour weeks as a CEO necessarily, but that he was simultaneously being a dick to his wife and eventually this probably had some negative impact on his CEO performance, not just on his personal life. What I got out of this is his advice is, try to the extent possible to be present for your family and get rid of "I am a CEO, bitch" attitude when you get home because your wife/husband may not appreciate it very much
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by blazespin on Sunday January 19, 2014 @01:27AM (#7083611)
No, they got it right. The #1 advice he should have given his former self was to ensure that the company DNA had proper work life/balance at its core. Once that culture was in place, the other things would have pretty much taken care of themselves.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by ececconi on Sunday January 19, 2014 @09:56AM (#7084553)
I agree with your statement. He said the company had a great work life balance policy, but his descriptions of it contradicted that.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by Gaurav322 on Sunday January 19, 2014 @06:17AM (#7084134)
I agree with you vasilipupkin... It is very hard for both employee and CEO to manage their work and Family Life Balance. But, we do not forget that CEO is the commanding officer of his army and It takes lot of stress and thinking to take a right step for his company future...

But, I have a solution for these as well... Give some of the responsibility to your co-founders means they can take the final decision in that particular area. Through that, CEO can save himself from lot of stress and also can make some time to share with his family...

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by crusso on Saturday January 18, 2014 @05:24PM (#7082494)
I just had the impression that he wished he could have had his cake and eaten it too.

He made the familial sacrifices. He had the business success. Now looking back he wished that he would have magically had that success without putting in all the time. Does not compute.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by sriramk on Saturday January 18, 2014 @05:37PM (#7082536)
I suspect he thinks he should have figured out a way to do both and not make it into an explicit trade-off. In fact, I think the entire post is about how "having+eating the cake" is possible if you put some effort into it.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by crusso on Saturday January 18, 2014 @05:48PM (#7082579)
if you put some effort into it

That's circular, though. How could he put yet more effort into something besides his business success when he said that he was pouring everything he had into it?

I would have respected his viewpoint a lot more if he had just said, "I didn't need to make all that money. My family should have been more important and I should have chosen them over the next shipping date at least 6 out of 10 times. If it had meant missing delivery dates and loss of some contracts, then so be it."

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by potatolicious on Saturday January 18, 2014 @07:33PM (#7082906)
Work smart, not just hard. The question is whether or not it would have been possible - and whether or not the compromises he made on his family life actually made the difference between failure and success.

In other words, those emails answered by sneaking off to the bathroom, did they matter in the success of the company, or could they have waited until morning?

Would leaving the office an hour early twice a week have resulted in missing delivery dates and loss of contracts? If they did, were those deliveries and contracts critical to the exit? Did dragging everyone into work on a weekend actually help the company, or was all that hard work (on his part and his employees') actually slowing down their engineering?

None of that is obvious. I dislike the Silicon Valley meme that family and money are mutually exclusive, or that one must necessarily go on suicidal work-rampages for months/years on end to achieve financial success. There is a world of difference between what looks critical and what is critical. I also dislike the notion that a bunch of sleep-deprived, high-strung people who don't have their shit together, staying alive by a combination of greed, caffeine, and blood pressure, is what "working optimally" looks like. It's clearly not.

This whole blog post is basically a post mortem where the author wonders if all those things that he thought had to be done right then, right there, actually had to be, or whether there was more wiggle room than he thought at the time.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by TeMPOraL on Saturday January 18, 2014 @07:33PM (#7082905)
> How could he put yet more effort into something besides his business success when he said that he was pouring everything he had into it?

By redirecting some efforts into optimizing the way he handles his business and family, thus making them require less effort for the same level of effect.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by WalterSear on Saturday January 18, 2014 @06:46PM (#7082777)
He wasn't able to do it as a founder - he changed jobs and found more time for his family.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by georgemcbay on Saturday January 18, 2014 @08:01PM (#7082968)
Yeah, after the first part of the article I spent the entire last bit vaguely hoping to see the remorse of having implicitly forced the developers and other executives to make the same decision he made, considering that were I in his shoes I'd feel terrible about how I treated my own family life but even worse about what impact it may (even potentially) have had on other people's families since they had less explicit choice in the matter.

Didn't find it. I guess I'd make a horrible modern CEO, I lack the unflinching confidence to be so self-absorbed.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by wpietri on Saturday January 18, 2014 @06:02PM (#7082632)
Yeah, that was the same reaction I had.

I also long ago stopped believing that 80-hour engineering weeks are much more productive than 40-hour weeks. For one week? Sure. Two? Maybe. Months? Nope! Definitely not better, probably worse.

(Why is a long answer, but for one take, this is good: http://www.lostgarden.com/2008/09/rules-of-productivity-pres... But even if none of that human-factors stuff were true, I'd still believe that because the cost of error. A tired programmer can easily be negatively productive, because small errors tonight turn into land-mine bugs that later blow up hours or days of time. 80-hour weeks value apparent productivity over actual productivity.)

All of those people should have gone home. Sense of urgency + stupid behavior + big payout is not actually proof that the stupid behavior led to the big payout. For every success like his, I can find a dozen stories of death marches that led to absolutely nothing worthwhile.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by eps on Sunday January 19, 2014 @06:03AM (#7084109)
80-hour work week for months is the only option if you are working on your ideas in parallel with stable, paying job. Then you quit and the project is just barely getting off the ground. You worked 80h/wk so far, so you have this chance to double your productivity. In fact, that's exactly why you quit, so it's damn sure that you keep working the 80h schedule. And then it becomes progressively hard to go back to the normal working hours, because it implies slacking.

So it's not a matter of believing in 80-hour engineering weeks and it's not a matter of choice for many people. It's just how things naturally develop when you are starting on your own.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by wpietri on Sunday January 19, 2014 @01:10PM (#7085231)
If what naturally develops is not as effective as something else, I would like to think that people would eventually stop doing it.

As I mentioned (and as the links demonstrate) 80 hour work weeks don't double productivity in the long term. They may double the perception of productivity, and they may satisfy one's sense of urgency by never giving time to think, but I have never seen any evidence that they double productivity in the creation of software.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by eps on Sunday January 19, 2014 @03:01PM (#7085728)
I don't particularly care for what links demonstrate, but I'm sure that people who are forced to work 80-hour schedule are very far from being twice as productive. However having worked under the 80-hour routine myself on my own project for two years I can assure you that it sure as hell helped to achieve a lot more and a lot faster. It's really a matter of motivation. Will I do it again? No ...but then I don't really need to now.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by wpietri on Sunday January 19, 2014 @05:23PM (#7086314)
I'm happy to agree that you perceived higher productivity. But there's an open question whether it was more than perception. Tired people, for example, think they can drive much better than they can. A comedy staple is the non-fine person shouting, "I'm fine!"

I believe that for certain sorts of work, 80-hour weeks might be more productive than 40-hour weeks. E.g., digging ditches (at least for the very young and very healthy). But in software the costs of error are so high, and so hard to trace back, that it will take very solid studies to convince me that the increased error rates from long hours really are counterbalanced by the large number of hours put in.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by rphlx on Saturday January 18, 2014 @09:18PM (#7083136)
Indeed: the writer comes off as a major narcissist, with a minor in status display ("Harvard MBA/VP Wife").

I suppose a near-total lack of empathy for your fellow man is, if not defendable, at least an understandable trait for a CEO working an engineering team to death, and then moaning about how "generously" buying them dinner every Sunday night was impacting his family life, until he could cash out based on their efforts.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by sabbatic13 on Sunday January 19, 2014 @04:51AM (#7083983)
In my experience, some narcissism is a requirement to be a startup CEO. And I don't mean that in a smart-ass way. The incessant representation of the company seems to require a strong identification of one's self with the company. It's sort of an enabling trait which has some potential negatives consequences. Among the latter would the perspective that sees everyone around them in the company as an extension of their will. Getting to the point of being a "real" CEO also usually requires some more-than-usual self-involvement and identification of one's endeavor with one's self. Good CEOs (by my standards) just have a touch of this. Many have too much. As you indicate, there's a certain logic to it.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by yulaow on Saturday January 18, 2014 @05:57PM (#7082609)
Each time I read madness as 60h/w, 70h/w or the wtf 80h/w I am really happy to live and work on EU. I think I would fall in depression really fast if I had to sacrifice (because over a certain limit, to me, it is only sacrifice) so much of my time and passion. Also in my opinion, ever over a certain limit (For me is 50h/w), the productivity of an engineer just vanish. I prefer work to live against live to work.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by afterburner on Saturday January 18, 2014 @07:52PM (#7082950)
And just think, Americans (and Canadians) also get much less vacation time than Europeans! Geniuses!
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by foobarian on Saturday January 18, 2014 @09:58PM (#7083209)
I guess the European peons did learn some lessons from all the centuries of oppression under the feudal nobility. The Americans never had that experience, so they bought into the company line hook line and sinker.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by mhurron on Saturday January 18, 2014 @10:38PM (#7083288)
If you're going to attribute history to why the workforce in Europe is the way it is, then the American expectation of the peons to work all the time is because the US never got over having slave labour.

BTW that line of thinking is ridiculous. Europeans and Americans learned about feudalism the same way, from history books. No one who was around when labour laws were going into effect has first, second or third hand knowledge of feudalism, slavery or working conditions during the Industrial Revolution.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by kourt on Sunday January 19, 2014 @03:29AM (#7083851)
In addition to slavery, Americans also had The Frontier. A man who didn't like the wages offered had the option to go make a homestead.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by lil_cain on Sunday January 19, 2014 @03:56PM (#7085953)
European culture is likely to have been far more shaped by feudalism than American culture is. You don't have to individually remember something for it to have an important effect on your values and actions.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by philwelch on Sunday January 19, 2014 @04:19AM (#7083924)
It's not like we came over from Europe or anything.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by mortyseinfeld on Sunday January 19, 2014 @12:06AM (#7083446)
Each time I read madness as 60h/w, 70h/w or the wtf 80h/w I am really happy to live and work on EU

I'm happy I don't live in EU. I don't have to work 80 hours, but if I choose to then that should be my right. Europe is too anti-ambition and its policies reflect that.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by moreentropy on Sunday January 19, 2014 @03:01AM (#7083799)
Well if you're the boss it's your right to work as long as you want, but it's not OK to abuse your employees and make them work ridiculous hours.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by mortyseinfeld on Sunday January 19, 2014 @09:02AM (#7084407)
Your boss can't make you work ridiculous hours
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by moreentropy on Sunday January 19, 2014 @10:05AM (#7084583)
Correct me if I'm wrong, i don't know the rules in the us, in Germany you're simply not allowed to work more than an average of eight hours per day. So you can not only not be forced to work more, you can't even be asked to. Even if it seems to be voluntary, often it isn't.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by marvin on Sunday January 19, 2014 @02:41PM (#7085641)
We might have to pass on hiring you, there appears to be a problem with the culture fit.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by codereflection on Saturday January 18, 2014 @08:45PM (#7083070)
Did everyone here miss the part about the importance of work/life balance at IronPort and how HE wasn't living it? Every company has deadlines to meet, and sometimes you have to work extra time. This guy, however, was working ALL the time, not just during those crunch periods.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by jusben1369 on Saturday January 18, 2014 @08:15PM (#7083001)
I'm only going to reply to this because so many of you got this impression. My take was "very early on you have to do these incredibly long development hours to ship a product, hit a milestone, and raise" The engineer's were looking at a rough 3 - 6 months of weekends etc. The CEO was looking at a rough 7 years. I'm not advocating that the engineers needed to even do that rough 3 -6 months just highlighting why I think he doesn't show remorse vs talk about the pain of CEO's.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by mcphilip on Saturday January 18, 2014 @08:33PM (#7083041)
Maybe I'm just unlucky but I've never worked at a startup where pressure relents on engineering after the initial push. I feel on call 24/7 now that we're in production with paying customers.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by Bahamut on Saturday January 18, 2014 @08:43PM (#7083062)
I think you're just unlucky - if my CEO sees me working at 8 pm or later, he tells me to go home, even if we're in a big push. He wants me ready to do more quality work the day after, and not burn out.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by jusben1369 on Saturday January 18, 2014 @08:36PM (#7083047)
As I said I'm not endosring it. Just explaining what seemed like a gap for so many readers.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by dsuth on Sunday January 19, 2014 @07:48AM (#7084275)
Last line of the post:

> I also believe this change is actually a much better example of leadership than the one I was exuding. When a leader shows the way toward getting things done and balancing their life, it sets a much better example for everyone else in the company who struggle with it too.

He says it right there.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by marcamillion on Saturday January 18, 2014 @09:26PM (#7083150)
I think you are reading into it too much.

Everybody can only speak from their own experience. I don't know Scott and never worked in his startup, but I suspect that what he may be angling at is the fact that as CEO he sets the tone of the company.

I can't speak for him, but I suspect that if he felt like he needed to enforce more work-life balance for himself, he would perhaps do the same for his employees....given that he sets the tone for the organization.

Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by thrownaway2424 on Saturday January 18, 2014 @09:59PM (#7083213)
Sure, but in reality they did work 7-day weeks and he did get a massive payoff. To express the theoretical desire to have better work/life balance is meaningless without a sincere expression of which part of his fortune he'd trade for it.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by vasilipupkin on Saturday January 18, 2014 @11:56PM (#7083431)
Yeah, I don't think it's necessary to trade anything. I think he is saying, he could have for example, attended more school events AND still had the massive exit. Or, say, after getting home, do the dishes etc. to at least show his wife that he was trying to help. None of that is somehow inconsistent with having a big exit
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by altero on Saturday January 18, 2014 @05:02PM (#7082429)
I had similar impression.
Re:Success at Work, Failure at Home by seivan on Saturday January 18, 2014 @05:19PM (#7082482)
Got the same impression.