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Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jere on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:26AM (#6970921)
>In addition, “in accordance with Hendy’s Law (a derivative of Moore’s Law), pixel count per dollar for digital cameras has been doubling approximately every twelve months. This trajectory implies that mobile phones could soon carry >39 megapixel cameras routinely.”

Ah Moore's Law. It explains everything. Double every twelve months, eh? Hmm, quick math. Facebook has been around for 9 years... oh yea, that explains why Facebook allows you to upload full resolution 60MP photos. /s

>What do your Instagram and Facebook photos reveal?

Nothing. They're about 100 times too small for this technique. And they probably always will be.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by redwood on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:35AM (#6970966)
One thing I've always thought lost in the discussion of increased digicam pixel count is that at a point you gain no real useful information in those pixels, because you've crossed the threshold of whether vibration allows resolution at that level at all.

Sure more pixels usually mean slightly more information, and there's obviously techniques: stability-enhancement, faster shots etc, that change this critical point. But for the average person carrying a camera: we crossed the critical point long ago and now just waste a lot of SSD space.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hahainternet on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:42AM (#6970995)
The vibration is not as significant an issue as diffraction is. Modern 18mp APS-C sensors already hit their diffraction limits at around f/11. Increased sensor density will push this down to 'reasonable' f-stops, f/8 being the real cut-off point.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by josu on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:47AM (#6971024)
Could you please explain what diffraction is in simple terms, or point me to a source where it's explained? I have a grasp on what diffraction is, but I don't understand the role it plays in this.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hahainternet on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:39AM (#6971312)
The smaller the aperture, the more diffracted incoming light rays. Once the 'circle of confusion' or airy disc exceeds the size of a single pixel on the sensor, you begin to lose lens sharpness. If you imagine two strips of paper, one green, one blue, directly adjacent. Now imagine photons from either side of the adjacent edge passing through a lens which slightly diffracts them.

This results in an obvious merging of the blue/green strips. The more the diffraction the more they merge, the less sharp the images become.

Current APS-C sensors at 18 megapixels have pixels small enough that an aperture of around f/11 is the minimum size before this effect begins. As sensors get more and more dense, the required aperture size gets larger and larger. F/8 is considered a 'normal' aperture and once sensors hit that density then the payoff from increased resolution is significantly less and can impact image quality adversely.

This is why science missions use 2mp CCDs that they know the characteristics of, rather than some 40 megapixel phone sensor.

edit: I've just realised I've typed all this out with the wrong idea. You wanted a simple explanation of diffraction. Imagine a water tank with waves being generated from a source at one end. Put a wall with a narrow hole in the middle of the tank. If the wavelength of the waves is significantly less than the width of the hole, they will for the most part pass through unaltered. As the hole gets smaller, more significant changes to the waves occur. They begin to 'spread out' or 'diffract'. An intuitive explanation is difficult but this is a practical one that makes sense to people.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by kika on Friday December 27, 2013 @01:41PM (#6971940)
Science missions use 2mp CCDs mostly because of the sensitivity. The larger is the individual sensor ("pixel") the more photons it can absorb thus more electrical potential it can generate compared to the noise level.

There's also technological barriers for creating large megapixel CCDs as opposed to CMOS. Large CCDs are usually created by "stitching" multiple sensors together, which increase their price as a square of the size.

You can shoot fullframe (35mm) camera at ISO 25600 and get decent results, but if you crank up signal amplification on iPhone to 25600 you'll get nothing but random color dots :-)

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hahainternet on Friday December 27, 2013 @01:50PM (#6972002)
> Science missions use 2mp CCDs mostly because of the sensitivity

It would be foolish to suggest there was a single motivator for inclusion of a sensor. In reality it is a combination of our answers. Large sensors allows lower gain and better noise performance, enables smaller aperture use at acceptable sharpness, takes less resources to process, transmit etc.

You're not wrong in mentioning it though. Although FF at 25600 is going to be piss poor even if it's Nikon / Sony.

edit: corrected stupid misspelling

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by kika on Friday December 27, 2013 @03:39PM (#6972523)
You've got very high standards in image quality :-)

Nikon D600 at 25600: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d600/nikon-d600G...

Not even close to "piss poor" in my book.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by ygra on Saturday December 28, 2013 @06:25AM (#6974738)
That's about the noise level and sharpness I have on my EOS 40D with ISO 1600. I think I'm going to cry in a corner a little.

That being said, you don't go that high unless you're very desperate and the sensor itself can go up to 6400, the rest is software.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by ygra on Saturday December 28, 2013 @06:29AM (#6974746)
Sample image if needed: http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/032/f/e/City_Lights_b...

That was f/32. The rings around the street lamps are diffraction artifacts.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by josu on Friday December 27, 2013 @12:03PM (#6971432)
Thank you, for both explanations, that was very informative.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by DougWebb on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:00AM (#6971091)
Simple layman's explanation (from a layman): lenses spread light out a bit as the light passes through, so the red wavelengths hit the sensor in a slightly different spot than the blue wavelengths. You need more expensive lenses to reduce this effect, but you're not going to get those in consumer-grade mass-market 1/8"-across lenses.

As a result, higher pixel densities will cause light from a single point to be spread across multiple pixels, with different wavelengths going to different pixels. Software can probably reconstruct the image somewhat, but I'm sure you'll hit a limit where there is too much interference to get the image any sharper no matter how many pixels you squeeze in.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by tanzam75 on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:13AM (#6971162)
> Simple layman's explanation (from a layman): lenses spread light out a bit as the light passes through, so the red wavelengths hit the sensor in a slightly different spot than the blue wavelengths.

What you've described is chromatic aberration.

Diffraction refers to the spreading of waves around an obstacle -- such as the aperture blades in your camera. No lens need be involved -- you can get diffraction with a pinhole camera.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by kawera on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:00AM (#6971094)
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hnriot on Friday December 27, 2013 @03:25PM (#6972455)
there is no simple explanation, or rather the simple explanation is your photos will be slightly blurry, from interference patterns due to the mysterious world of quantum mechanics. If you want a better explanation, ask a photon to make up its mind whether it's a wave or a particle.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by Gravityloss on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:53AM (#6971062)
It's the photon shot noise.

The higher your resolution compared to your aperture, the less photons you get per pixel.

Sensor size doesn't matter at all.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hahainternet on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:22AM (#6971203)
More advanced materials with lower noise characteristics can theoretically produce perfectly reasonable images from single photon impacts.

Diffraction cannot be solved as easily.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by quantumet on Friday December 27, 2013 @02:15PM (#6972113)
Photon shot noise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_noise#Optics) is as fundamental as diffraction - it's a property of light, not a property of the sensor.

If your sensor counts a mean of 100 photons per pixel, then you'll see shot noise with standard deviation of 10 photons in each of those, for a signal-to-noise ratio of 10. If you quadruple your pixel size and now measure 400 photons per pixel, then your SNR goes up to 20.

This is why bigger sensors (more captured photons for same light level and exposure time) are fundamentally better at image capture.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hahainternet on Friday December 27, 2013 @02:32PM (#6972189)
Ok this is getting pretty convoluted. I didn't mean to imply that photon noise was not a real thing, just that diffraction is a more direct concern. Photon noise can be amortised by a number of different processes which aren't applicable to the case I was trying illustrate. You can't amortise diffraction errors by longer exposure or better photon capture. Pixel size is a primary concern regardless of its noise characteristics.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by Gravityloss on Friday December 27, 2013 @04:15PM (#6972643)
Think about shooting with a shotgun at a target. If you have a thousand pellets, the distribution of pellets at the target will be quite smooth. Now, shoot through a narrow aperture that takes out 99% of the pellets. Now you have ten pellets. The distribution can not be smooth. The sampling frequency (pixel size) at the target does not matter much. It is the aperture size.

I realize that is a very flawed analogy but it's the quickest I could come up with.

Here's more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_noise#Optics

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by kika on Friday December 27, 2013 @01:45PM (#6971975)
To get such less noise you not only need to utilize advanced materials, but also cool down the sensor considerably. To register single photon impacts you'll need to cool down to 0K I guess :-)
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hahainternet on Friday December 27, 2013 @02:07PM (#6972081)
Not at all, just look at the difference in the current sensors on the market. There's a wide range of performances due to engineering restrictions. Only the pixel size and aperture size are really relevant to diffraction so it occupies a different class of problems.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by Gravityloss on Friday December 27, 2013 @04:17PM (#6972656)
Even if you had 100% efficient sensors, photon shot noise would still be an issue. You are sampling the photons emitted by the target. After having reasonably efficient sensors, it's a baseline you can't go under.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by wlievens on Friday December 27, 2013 @05:29PM (#6972903)
I'm not sure about that minimum, but I do know noise (dark current signal non-uniformity for those in the know) increases considerably with temperature. So yes it matters.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by barrkel on Saturday December 28, 2013 @06:33AM (#6974755)
FWIW, the rods in your own eye's retina are able to register single photon impacts.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by lutorm on Friday December 27, 2013 @02:50PM (#6972275)
This doesn't put a limit on the resolution, though. It just means you need better optics, or larger sensors. The problem is that these cameras generally have inferior optics with a resolution much worse than what the pixel size would indicate.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hahainternet on Friday December 27, 2013 @09:26PM (#6973578)
You're mistaken, the optics are irrelevant. It is the existence of an aperture through which the rays must pass that causes diffraction. You are correct in that resolution does not matter so much as density, but practical density is already hit and sensors are still quite large.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by rtpg on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:47AM (#6971018)
well with a bit more exposure and a motion sensor can't you get rid of the vibration effect to some extent? I have a camera with a 24x zoom that can take relatively clear pics despite my hands shaking like crazy (when enhanced 24x at least)
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by tanzam75 on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:07AM (#6971132)
> Ah Moore's Law. It explains everything.

He never said that Moore's Law explains everything. He simply said that Hendy's Law explains why phones will soon has 39-megapixel cameras. Since the Nokia Lumia 1020 is available today with a 41-megapixel sensor, I do not find this to be farfetched.

Facebook and Instagram will depend not on Moore's Law, but on availability of bandwidth and cost of storage. To argue against Moore's Law for Facebook is to argue against a strawman. The article did not make that connection -- you did.

In 2005, would you have predicted that Youtube would never carry 1080p videos? I mean, back then, Blu-ray and HD-DVD were still battling it out for dominance of the next-generation disc market.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jere on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:18AM (#6971186)
>He never said that Moore's Law explains everything.

I was referring to the fact this is on kurzweilai.net and Kurzweil tends to think it does explain everything: how we're going to beat the turing test in 16 years, how he's going to resurrect his dead father, etc.

From the subtitle to the last paragraph, the article clearly implies that this technique will soon be applied to social networking sites. And it seems to use Moore's law to handwave the details.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jamesaguilar on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:31AM (#6970941)
> And they probably always will be.

Famous last words when predicting non-advance of technology.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jere on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:34AM (#6970963)
Yup, you're right. I'm lacking imagination.

Please help me understand a future where social networking sites will maintain and display ~ 6200px X 6200px photos of your selfies. Outside of genetically engineering new eyeballs, I'm struggling here.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by ctdonath on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:48AM (#6971350)
I was at an Apple store yesterday, just behind a teen who was puzzled why her phone was out of storage space. Turned out she had 9 gigabytes of texts stored - dominated by full-resolution pictures. So yeah, as we're moving into 10-40 GP imagers on phones, people are casually and regularly sending around enough data to start including a lot more visual information than they expect. Social media sites may take a while to catch up, but "texting" is already hitting that resolution.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by chaz on Friday December 27, 2013 @04:35PM (#6972727)
FB doesn't need to upgrade to extra high-resolution in the news feeds -- a waste of bandwidth and time. They just need to make original uploads available via the API.

I think it's safe to assume that FB has tried to keep the original version of every photo ever uploaded. A few years ago, YouTube retroactively upgraded uploaded videos to HD. It's also safe to assume that they're going to continue upgrading/evolving/extending their most important feature, photos, and try to make it the #1 place to organize, store, and share all your photos.

Facebook then becomes an API upgrade away from exposing the original versions of uploaded photos. The photos will also come with all of your friend's faces conveniently tagged, allowing an app with the right permissions to extract high resolution faces/pupils/reflections. None of this needs to happen in the news stream.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by waterlesscloud on Friday December 27, 2013 @05:56PM (#6972995)
I'm not sure, but I think FB mobile does some sort of downgrade before the photo is uploaded to the server. I've had pictures upload to Facebook from my phone in a very short period of time, shorter than would be required for a full res upload.

So they may not have full resolution versions from the mobile, which is likely their primary source of pictures.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by chaz on Friday December 27, 2013 @06:23PM (#6973090)
Yes, I think this is correct. They're still prioritizing performance first right now. But when the time is right, they'll probably upgrade that capability as well. Either pushing the full resolution file up, or syncing the full resolution later when you're on wifi.

For a while, the Java upload tool was knocking down resolution before upload on desktop, too. That was a few years ago, I think. 2008-09?

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jamesaguilar on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:49AM (#6971038)
Ubiquitous fiber networks and a single order of magnitude increase in the capacity of storage media would make it "free." As for why: bigger is better?

I'm not saying you're wrong. But look at it this way: you are predicting that the resolution of stored photos won't increase by another power of ten. If you are right, this would be the first time in tech history that such a prediction would be correct.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jere on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:55AM (#6971071)
While I am skeptical that every technology progresses in lockstep and indefinitely: storage capacity; storage speeds; network speeds; consumer devices; I'm actually objecting more to "bigger is better." It seems that isn't necessarily true. Especially when it's a photo of your face.

Also, just a nitpick. I think relevant factor is ~100, the difference between the current resolution maintained by most websites and the proposed one for this technique to start becoming feasible.

[Ok, 20 may be right. I didn't know they allowed 2000x1000]

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jamesaguilar on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:17AM (#6971183)
Facebook will store 2000x1???, and the technique proposed here requires 6000x6???. That's a factor of about 20, not 100.

Personally, I will enjoy seeing high res pictures of other people on my 4k monitor when I get one.

Again, not saying I'm 100% that you're wrong, but you're making a bold and unprecedented prediction.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by ctdonath on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:54AM (#6971383)
Wasn't all that long ago that 320x200 images were considered astoundingly good and sufficient. The "zoom image" scene in Blade Runner was wishful thinking; now we're discussing its imminent reality.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by rayiner on Friday December 27, 2013 @04:53PM (#6972800)
It also wasn't long ago that we thought we would have flying cars and supersonic airliners. Physics is a cruel master.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by acchow on Saturday December 28, 2013 @03:34AM (#6974435)
I thought this was a discussion about Facebook serving higher resolution digital photos - why is physics relevant here?
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jakobsen on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:35AM (#6971295)
I think the point is, if smartphone cameras eventually get to say 40MP then people will start uploading at that resolution even if there's absolutely no benefit from it. The image may then be scaled down to be shown on the page, but FB can keep the original.

it would be cool to make group pictures, though.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by kronholm on Friday December 27, 2013 @02:12PM (#6972100)
Isn't one of Nokia/Microsoft's phones, currently on market, at 42 megapixels?
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by ygra on Saturday December 28, 2013 @06:34AM (#6974756)
It is; and the PureView 808 (Symbian) has had that before. But even though the full-resolution shot is saved for post-processing you usually get a 5- or 8MP shot that's your actual final image.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by pawn on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:58AM (#6971079)
Just a few days ago, somebody posted a link on HN for a 4K 24" monitor. Right now, I'm typing on a computer hooked up to two monitors with 2560x1440 resolution.

10 years ago, I never would've guessed we'd be up to 120" TVs with 4k resolution. I was pretty happy with my 42", which was a big step up from what my parents had used before.

Right now, those examples I mentioned are new and expensive, but it won't be another 10 years before they come down in price and Sony and Samsung will be looking to sell us on another resolution.

Meanwhile, having computers hooked up to your TV is also becoming increasingly popular. My dad hates looking at a tiny computer screen, and would much rather look at photos on a TV.

So you've got high resolution TVs, and low resolution photos. That means the photos are too small or blown up to show their pixelation. That won't fly forever.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by sjm-lbm on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:25AM (#6971235)
As a hobbyist photographer, I can tell you the problem with this will be optics. The discussion here (and the article itself) seems to act as if sensor pixel density is the primary limiting factor on resolution at this point - and it's not. [1] is an article that has a good and through discussion on sensors out-resolving lenses.

So, your limiting factor is glass, and manufacturing precision on that end is moving forward much slower than on the sensor.

[1] - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by argumentum on Friday December 27, 2013 @03:09PM (#6972382)
> it won't be another 10 years before they come down in price

I wager we'll see 4k tablets under $1k within 2 years, and TVs will have to follow suit (drop in price, increase in quality).

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hamburglar on Friday December 27, 2013 @02:38PM (#6972217)
Did you ever click on a photo in facebook and wish you could zoom in and see a larger size (or even the original) in order to see more detail of a specific part? I sure have. The future where they maintain huge images is the future where enough people want to be able to do that and the cost of supporting it is small enough. It really isn't too hard to imagine.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by fragmede on Friday December 27, 2013 @02:20PM (#6972140)
You're also assuming field of view (FOV) stays the same - which it won't. Think about if every picture you took was a panorama - I don't think 18000px x 2135px (to keep the same number of pixels) is unreasonable resolution for a 180° panorama.

Now imagine that lenses for single-shot panoramas are standard on all cameras and cellphones.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by hnriot on Friday December 27, 2013 @03:30PM (#6972475)
haha, yes, your lack of imagination in this regard is tempting to jump all over, but I point you at exhibit A, the past.

I used to think my 50GB disk was massive. Now I have more RAM than that, and use it all!

Photos will increase in size because of many factors, possibly including multiple focus points, or more color information, or 3d or a whole suite of yet to be thought up reasons.

I am very sure social networking sites will store larger files than 6.2k x 6.2k, with the 4K monitors and video and cameras producing larger and larger images (think medium format, even a piddly little smartphone now has 49MP!)

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by forgottenpaswrd on Saturday December 28, 2013 @10:45AM (#6975201)
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/95342015/360o-for-gopro-...

This saves a big resolution picture with spacial info. With your computer then you see a smaller part of the image. 6200x6200 images is not too much.

Add everything that has to do with 3D. Life is 3D, not 2D.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by Jakob on Friday December 27, 2013 @10:42AM (#6970994)
Higher DPI displays for life-size photos?
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by err4nt on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:11AM (#6971153)
Okay I'll do the math, if we look at a chart we can find that most human heads fit within the measurements of 6.5 inches wide, and 9.4 inches tall [1]. That fits nicely within the 8x10 inch standard size for photographs that is common, so assuming we display these images at the maximum resolution human eyes can discern [2](somewhere <300 pixels per square inch) that means that in order for you to display a human head life-sized at 'visually flawless' resolution only requires an image with a resolution of 2400x3000 pixels.

I can see the appeal of life-sized photos on social networking sites in the future. Group photos could benefit from being larger than that to include multiple people at life-size, but I'm unsure of how a resolution greater than 2400x3000 would be useful for a profile picture at this point.

[1] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/HeadAnthr...

[2] http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/2010/06/apple-retina...

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jamesaguilar on Friday December 27, 2013 @11:31AM (#6971264)
Two heads side by side on a 30" 300 dpi monitor should be enough to drive need for this tech, then.
Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by jere on Friday December 27, 2013 @03:34PM (#6972492)
Another thought:

A few people are pointing out use cases where a 39MP photo might make sense down the line:

-Group photos

-Head to toe shots

-Panoramas

Let me just point out that this research is done on "high-resolution passport-style photographs." That is a close up head shot with a normal FOV. You fit your whole body, your friends, and everything else in the photo... you're going to need hundreds to thousands of mega pixels for this to work. At the end of the day, it looks like you still need > 39MP just for the face.

Re:Reflected hidden faces in photographs revealed in pupil by aestra on Friday December 27, 2013 @04:49PM (#6972779)
It isn't like there aren't photo sharing sites where you can upload the full res version, like Flickr. Flickr offers a free TB of space.