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Re:Letter From A Psychopath by undoware on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:06PM (#6942892)
I hate to logic-chop a civilian (i.e. someone who didn't waste their youth in an analytic philosophy department studying ethics) but here we go.

If your position is that all convincing self-accounts by psychopaths are themselves only convincing because the psychopath is somehow 'tricking' you, then you can take that statement and s/psychopath/any group you care to name/ and you'd never know the difference.

Don't believe me? Try substituting various bogeymen of the twentieth century: crack dealers, pedophiles, etc. You see what I mean? It always works: You shouldn't trust what pedophiles say because, well, they're pedophiles!

Generalizing, there's always a reason why someone's supposed perfidy makes them an untrustworthy speaker, and that's a problem.

One floor down, what's going on is 'begging the question' -- not in the colloquial motivates-the-question sense, but in the sense that you are assuming what you set out to prove (circular reasoning).

Watch:

CLAIM = C is a psychopath; therefore, don't trust him when he says C is good.

CLAIM' = X is a Y; therefore, don't believe X's claim that Z.

But there's still an implicit claim hiding! In fact, it's the value of Z. Let's suss it out:

CLAIM'' = X is a Y; Ys are untrustworthy; therefore, don't believe X when X says that Ys are trustworthy.

There you have it: a textbook case of circular reasoning. That's the sort of thing C is talking about: people get so emotional when they think about psychopaths, they fail to hold themselves up to the same standards for rational discourse at which a psychopath ironically excels.

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by DanBC on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:08PM (#6942907)
> If your position is that all convincing self-accounts by psychopaths are themselves only convincing because the psychopath is somehow 'tricking' you, then you can take that statement and s/psychopath/any group you care to name/ and you'd never know the difference. Don't believe me? Try substituting various bogeymen of the twentieth century: crack dealers, pedophiles, etc. You see what I mean? It always works: You shouldn't trust what pedophiles say because, well, they're pedophiles!

Your logic chop fails because one of the elements of psychopathy is being a convincing liar.

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by scott_s on Friday December 20, 2013 @03:55PM (#6943953)
Not just a convincing liar, but one with a propensity for manipulation and a lack of empathy. Because of that, I think tomstoke's analysis is unique to sociopaths/psychopaths, and you cannot simply insert any bogeyman.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by alan_cx on Friday December 20, 2013 @02:16PM (#6943355)
Hmmm, no. One of the elements of being a successful human being is being a convincing liar.

"Does my bum look big in this"? "Hi, wow you look great...."

And so on.

Humans lie. If they didn't, they'd be in constant conflict.

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by smsm42 on Saturday December 21, 2013 @04:44AM (#6946290)
What you just described is not a lie. It would be a lie if you were a martian having no understanding in how humans operate. The question "Does my bum look big in this?" may be a factual inquiry about the qualities of the chosen garment or may be a solicitation of a social interaction expressing support and admiration, due to the feelings of insecurity or needing external validation. Yes, I know it sounds the same, humans are complex. But calling such social interaction "a lie" just because it is not a factual exchange is IMO misunderstanding the whole process and devaluing the term "lie".
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by DanBC on Saturday December 21, 2013 @05:14AM (#6946332)
But these lies are exactly why psychopaths lie. They start by telling the truth, and realising it doesn't work. They learn to lie. They discover that does work. They then use this technique and apply it to everything. Lies become more than the social oil that everyone uses to avoid offence, lies become a tool of manipulation.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by undoware on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:33PM (#6943082)
So is being any sort of successful criminal. A pedophile, for example.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by Arnor on Friday December 20, 2013 @02:06PM (#6943293)
I still have no idea what you're trying to say. I don't have an abundance of trust for psychopaths, pedophiles, or crack dealers. I've worked very closely with psychopaths (one was also a pedophile) in an institutional setting in the past. I had to assume that every interaction was a manipulation. Even being extremely careful, it was easy to get caught from time to time particularly when I was understaffed (i.e. 1 staff to 3 clients).

Reading the top parent of this thread was very interesting because he was thinking in exactly the way I had been conditioned to think at that time in my life.

When a person in your life lies to you or manipulates you, you will certainly begin to question the value of other interactions from that person. Once you have confirmed that the person has a personality type that makes them particularly likely to lie or manipulate (compulsive liars, psychopaths, criminals, what have you), you must be careful about your interpretation of any communication. But here's the real difficulty: If a psychopath is trying to manipulate you and knows that you are conscious of it, the manipulations morph. They adapt to your particular defense. In the institutional setting, they're in it for the long haul so they don't mind missing a couple times. In fact, getting caught is often part of the manipulation.

I wandered off my initial topic here so I better wrap it up.

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by cdash on Friday December 20, 2013 @03:22PM (#6943721)
Everyone lies and manipulates you, not just psychopaths.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by Arnor on Friday December 20, 2013 @03:42PM (#6943862)
Very true. Still, when you are aware of a particular propensity for manipulation, it is prudent to tread carefully.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by DanBC on Saturday December 21, 2013 @05:16AM (#6946334)
But psychopaths are particularly effective at it, and lack the boundaries that stop other people from being as good at lying.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by undoware on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:42PM (#6943150)
vanderzwan: I'm intentionally dealing with public-paranoia stereotypes: The pedophile on the hunt; the crack dealer at the schoolyard; etc. etc. I meant 'pedophile', and used this charged word, specifically to pick out how our reactions often blind us; but in doing so, I myself equivocated between illness and criminality. Ew. Thanks for catching that.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by vanderZwan on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:37PM (#6943117)
I'm not sure if I would lump in "successful criminal" - which implies doing something criminal - with a mental sickness (sexual attraction to children) that may or may not actually be acted upon.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by DanBC on Saturday December 21, 2013 @04:53PM (#6948229)
lots of successful criminals are lousy liars. I'm not sure what your point is?

Certainly lots of paedophiles are terrible liars.

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by wrongc0ntinent on Friday December 20, 2013 @02:03PM (#6943278)
Guess which paradox applies here.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by Guvante on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:15PM (#6942950)
To be fair, he is specifically pointing out bits of information that are designed to lead you a certain way, he is not just saying don't believe him.

Thus you can't debunk him just by saying "Don't believe him because he is a psychopath is insufficient".

If you want to pin all of his logic on that baseline theory (which would be stretching it), then your replacement no longer works, as crack dealers aren't known for being persuasive and manipulative in words in that way. Similar for most other distrusted groups.

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by undoware on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:33PM (#6943088)
Of course crack dealers are manipulative and good at lying. The ones that aren't are caught. It's selected for.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by g8oz on Saturday December 21, 2013 @10:22AM (#6946850)
I don't think you know much about crack dealing.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by MarkPNeyer on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:16PM (#6942969)
additionally crack dealers and pedophiles are probably more likely to be sociopaths. i'd guess most groups gain 'distrusted' status because of the influence of sociopaths within them.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by Guvante on Monday December 23, 2013 @05:23PM (#6956931)
Orthogonal to my point, and I would guess that your assumption is incorrect. Well known cases are probably sociopaths, due to the combination making them more interesting.

But we are both just conjecturing :).

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by MarkPNeyer on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:13PM (#6942935)
> If your position is that all convincing self-accounts by psychopath

He made no such generalization. He simply talked about this one self account.

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by undoware on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:32PM (#6943077)
Good point, thanks Mark. :)

See, I positioned myself for not getting it quite right -- I can say, "this means I'm probably less psychopathic than you."

Monster! :D

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by MarkPNeyer on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:44PM (#6943162)
raaaarrrr
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by barrkel on Friday December 20, 2013 @10:36PM (#6945612)
Actually, the comment you're referring to just suggests people take a step back from the material of the letter, and look at its overall effect: one of self-aggrandizement.

Once you see that, the material of the letter takes on a different aspect. Even if it weren't from a psychopath, it would be enlightening.

(I have other issues with your use of naive logic based on non-probabilistic propositions, but you may be doing that to dumb it down for the audience.)

Re:Letter From A Psychopath by sciguy77 on Friday December 20, 2013 @01:59PM (#6943250)
This is why I love HN. I learned something new from your comment, thank you.
Re:Letter From A Psychopath by southpawgirl on Friday December 20, 2013 @02:35PM (#6943457)
Undoware, all very well explained; I couldn't agree more.