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Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by joe_the_user on Tuesday November 19, 2013 @11:43PM (#6766345)
Ah, an earth-shaking discovery made by a man in his fifties who was barely within academia [1]. Guess he won't get a Fields Medal for that.

It seems like more and more of the really big discoveries are being made by people who go off and work really hard on their own.

I vaguely recall a claim that the greatest discoveries aren't being made by people in their twenties any more just because math is so huge you need ten years of study to get to the bleeding edge.

Anyway, it seems to say something about academia.

Edit: Just to be clear I neither deny that academia can achieve great things nor do I claim that young people can't do similarly. Certainly, anyone halfway near academia probably see many flaws but that's for another post.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitang_Zhang

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by icambron on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:23AM (#6766462)
I don't get it. The article talks not just about Zhang, but also about James Maynard, who is a postdoc and looks young, and is part of what you might call standard academia. His result is independent of Zhang's and is orders of magnitude stronger and is much easier to understand. Comes off pretty good for academia, really.

Also, remember that most people on Earth aren't in academia, but most people still think. So the null hypothesis is that most innovations won't come from academia. But a huge amount of them do anyway, including even your counterexample, who--despite his economic struggles--was still a lecturer at a university. You could make a similar argument for young people.

Our university system and our cultural obsession with youth deserve plenty of criticism, but the accusation that they're not making important discoveries isn't one of them, and it's totally unwarranted from this article.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by fspeech on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @11:51AM (#6769145)
Okay it appears that you and several others have not read the preprint paper. The article's wording is a bit confusing but if you think carefully you'd realize that a later work can not be independent of an earlier well known result.

The article does have a link to Maynard's preprint: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.4600v1.pdf

Here is an expert overview of the situation: http://www.dms.umontreal.ca/~andrew/CEBBrochureFinal.pdf

"In April 2013, Yitang Zhang proved the existence of a nite bound B such that there are in nitely many pairs of distinct primes which di er by no more than B. This is a massive breakthrough, makes the twin prime conjecture look highly plausible (which can be re-interpreted as the conjecture that one can take B  2) and his work helps us to better understand other delicate questions about prime numbers that had previously seemed intractable. The original purpose of this talk was to discuss Zhang's extraordinary work, putting it in its context in analytic number theory, and to sketch a proof of his theorem. Zhang had even proved the result with B  70 000 000. Moreover, a co-operative team, polymath8, collaborating only on-line, had been able to lower the value of B to 4680. Not only had they been more careful in several dicult arguments in Zhang's original paper, they had also developed Zhang's techniques to be both more powerful and to allow a much simpler proof. Indeed the proof of Zhang's Theorem, that will be given in the write-up of this talk, is based on these developments. In November, inspired by Zhang's extraordinary breakthrough, James Maynard dramatically slashed this bound to 600, by a substantially easier method. Both Maynard, and Terry Tao who had independently developed the same idea, were able to extend their proofs to show that for any given integer m ¥ 1 there exists a bound Bm such that there are in nitely many intervals of length Bm containing at least m distinct primes. We will also prove this much stronger result herein, even showing that one can take Bm  e8m􀀀5. If these techniques could be pushed to their limit then we would obtain B( B2) 12, so new ideas are still needed to have a feasible plan for proving the twin prime conjecture. The article will be split into two parts. The rst half, which appears here, we will introduce the work of Zhang, Polymath8, Maynard and Tao, and explain their arguments that allow them to prove their spectacular results. As we will discuss, Zhang's main novel contribution is an estimate for primes in relatively short arithmetic progressions. The second half of this article sketches a proof of this result; the Bulletin article will contain full details of this extraordinary work."

EDIT: it appears that copying and pasting from the PDF is problematic and please read the linked PDF if interested.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by azakai on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:58AM (#6766549)
> The article talks not just about Zhang, but also about James Maynard, who is a postdoc and looks young, and is part of what you might call standard academia. His result is independent of Zhang's and is orders of magnitude stronger and is much easier to understand.

Maynard has done some stellar work to be sure, but he built off of Zhang's breakthrough. Maynard's result is one of a sequence of very quick findings all happening in just months after Zhang's work became public, all make possible by that work, and relatively easy, as can be seen from their number and rapid pace.

I have not read all the papers here, but my guess is that Zhang's result is hugely more impressive.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by icambron on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @01:53AM (#6766700)
> Maynard has done some stellar work to be sure, but he built off of Zhang's breakthrough.

That was actually not my understand from the article (I haven't read the papers either). What I got was that there was an earlier paper ("GPY") that Zhang based his work on. Maynard based his work on a flawed predecessor of GPY. Thus he did not base his work on Zhang's. In fact, the article seems to indicate that further progress could be made by combining their approaches, but it certainly seems from my reading that they're independent. Of course, that could all be wrong, but it is what the article indicates.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by callmecosmas on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @01:53AM (#6766698)
Actually at the bottom of page 2 of Maynard's preprint he states: "We emphasize that the above result does not incorporate any of the technology used by Zhang to establish the existence of bounded gaps between primes."

So it seems like it is actually a coincidence, though they were both building off of the same previous work (GPY) so maybe it's not that surprising.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by ww2 on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @09:47AM (#6768264)
That is only a tactic move. it is Zhang's work inspired him to look for a quick better alternative. Zhang showed " there is gold! " And then Maynard ran towards that.
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by masklinn on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @02:16AM (#6766766)
> he built off of Zhang's breakthrough.

The article makes it very clear that his work is completely independent from Zhang's, which is why there is expectation that they can be used together to get bounds into the 10s, and maybe even below that limit.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by Pitarou on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @02:56AM (#6766858)
> ... but most people still think.

I take issue with that.

People think, but they don't think far beyond what is directly accessible to experience, so I wouldn't call it academic thinking.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by thaumasiotes on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @04:12AM (#6767052)
OK.

How sure are you that academia is different from the general run of mankind in this regard?

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by Pitarou on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @08:22AM (#6767782)
The difference between academic teaching and practical teaching is that academic teaching involves "second order knowledge". I.e. knowledge that is not accessible to direct experience. We can only acquire it through study, reflection, and testing and retesting our mental models.

Time and again, phenomenographic research shows that students simply don't do this. This is the bane of any academic teacher's life. Students are demonstrably smart enough to understand the material, but they just don't engage with the material at a deep enough level for it to make any real impression. They don't want to think.

For instance, Physics students become adept at manipulating kinematics equations, but on further questioning it becomes clear that they still think like Aristotle did. Or Computer Science students struggle mightily to memorize all the syntax and semantics of Java, but their learning is so shallow they still can't solve the FizzBuzz problem.

Why don't people think? For the same reason they don't exercise, if they don't have to. It's hard!

So, yes, I claim that the majority of people don't think. Are there academics who don't think much? A few don't. Many don't think much about matters outside their specialism. And academics receive precious little training in overcoming the cognitive biases that hinder clear thinking for most people. But I still think that academics are more likely to be deep thinkers than most, just like sportspeople are more likely to be enthusiastic exercisers than most.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by delluminatus on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @03:46PM (#6771058)
I think it's unfair to place the blame squarely on the student. Even in college, the academic system emphasizes memorization and surface-level application (knowing how to "use a formula") over the kind of "thinking" you're describing.

Also, many professionals are called upon to solve problems that require this same kind of "thinking". Academics are not the only ones wrestling with difficult problems.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by Pitarou on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @11:51PM (#6773108)
> I think it's unfair to place the blame squarely on the student. Even in college, the academic system emphasizes memorization and surface-level application (knowing how to "use a formula") over the kind of "thinking" you're describing.

You're quite right. I can't possibly give a fair, nuanced description of the issue in a couple of paragraphs, and I'm nowhere near qualified to give the definitive account of the problem. Still, you're right that I do place more blame on the learners than most. Maybe people shy away from these ideas because they're dangerously close to some rather sinister Brave New World-style educational theories.

In teaching, I think we have a chicken-and-egg problem. We want students to learn both the underlying abstraction and the surface details. But the weaker students are resistant to learning the underlying abstraction, so we drop that and drill them harder on the surface details instead.

I see no easy solutions to this problem.

> Also, many professionals are called upon to solve problems that require this same kind of "thinking". Academics are not the only ones wrestling with difficult problems.

Sure. Computer programmers are an obvious case. But a perusal of the Daily WTF's archives (http://thedailywtf.com/), or the fact that many professional programmers with long careers still can't pass the FizzBuzz test, shows you that there is still a problem.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by shiven on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @06:57AM (#6767516)
Wait, what? Academia is a pretty broad brush stroke, if you know anything about being an academic, and you appear to be making that brush broader still.

Care to elaborate?

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by thaumasiotes on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @07:19AM (#6767585)
I'm not sure what you're asking me; the whole point of my comment is that academia is a pretty broad brush stroke.

My parent comment says that, outside academia, most people's thoughts aren't significant enough to merit the term "thinking". I'm saying that, if you want to consider that that's the case outside academia, you should realize that it's also the case inside academia.

Personally, I would be happy to dignify most people's thoughts with the term "thinking".

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by fspeech on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:42AM (#6766516)
Are you saying that Maynard independently tackled P(2) or that he independently came up with a better sieve? My take from reading the article is the latter.
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by icambron on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @02:03AM (#6766727)
I guess I'm saying the latter too. Can you explain the former?
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by fspeech on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:04PM (#6769229)
It is my understanding from reading Maynard's preprint that he claims independence from Terrence Tao and the Polymath8 project. He doesn't claim independence from Zhang and neither should he, even if he uses a different approach. His result may well turn out to be important or more important but Zhang's result is clearly earlier and well-known.

My differentiation is that number theorists are looking for better sieves all the time. Zhang's work was a breakthrough in bringing the prime gap from infinity to a finite number. It is not surprising that better sieves could bring the gap a lot closer.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by sillysaurus2 on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:09AM (#6766417)
It's easy to believe academia is fading when you categorically ignore all of its achievements.
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by cscheid on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:19AM (#6766450)
John Baez has had an interesting series of posts about this on G+, but IIRC the gist of it is that even though both Grigori Perelman and Yitang Zhang were somewhat outside the mainstream of academia, their work was not. Both of them built on well-known theories and methods to prove their groundbreaking theorems. Perelman's primary tool, for example, was Ricci flows, which had been used at least 25 years before his work. (I know even less about Zhang's work)
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by hyperbovine on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:34AM (#6766495)
I think the mathematical edifice is sound, but I can certainly see how being as divorced as possible from typical faculty responsibilities makes it easier to do original / groundbreaking research. Too many professors I know spend the bulk of their time attending to e-mail, grant writing, and traveling to give talks about work others have done. What little remaining time they have is often devoted to teaching. Some of them openly complain about how little time they have to actually think about things, while others seems to roll with it (being famous in your field is not a bad gig). Worse, the more successful you become the more these tertiary responsibilities encroach on your time. It's an open secret that the best-known professors in certain fields basically sign their names on the papers their postdocs and grad students write and that is more or less the extent of their research contribution. Cutting all this out, even if it means moving in with your mom in Moscow, could indeed be a viable option...
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by darkmighty on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:50AM (#6766533)
The bare truth is this kind of mathematics (and, say, theoretical physics) is "hard" and requires a kit of thinking and thus a lot of time. Breakthroughs are named that for a reason -- they involve a distant, non-local solution. If you're doing your research on a topic you will most likely only focus on local improvements to the problems, simply because they lead to more steady results -- they are both safer and don't require you to pretty much think all the time about the problem at hand -- you can't really expect every mathematician to prefer that kind of work.
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by cscheid on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:44AM (#6766521)
Agreed!

What I'm trying to get at is that there's two ways you can think of academia: 1) roughly the set of people in traditional institutions, and 2) a basically unorganized set of people that happen to come together through working on related problems, in related ways.

2) is arguably the purer view of academia, and in that sense, it's as strong as ever.

I agree with you that there's deep, serious problems with 1), and they have to do with Pournelle's law, (in the US) with Bayh-Dole, and a litany of other hard, nasty problems of social life. But, even in that case: is that any worse than other cultures?

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by Steuard on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @09:35AM (#6768163)
But Zhang was teaching as a adjunct (or at least, a non-tenure-track instructor) before he made this breakthrough and skyrocketed (apparently) to full professor. Adjuncts generally have enormously less time for research than full time professors do (at least if they want to make a borderline living wage).
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by atmosx on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @08:10AM (#6767740)
Being barely within academia today means having access to all the papers released along with many blog posts by PhD's who analyze the results and repercussions of a paper or a discovery.

The only example of out-of-academia, in the real sense, was Ramanujan[1] who was a sort of pure genius out of nowhere and was able to pull out formulas like this [2]. He wasn't constrict by the rigorous need for proof that Europeans were looking in order to accept any discovery for being true.

De Sautoy[3] states that Ramanujan non-formal (western-style) education kept him away from European mathematical achievements and but also away from European fears of inability to attack specific problems (i.e. like Riemann's Hypothesis for example[4]) and that was a good thing.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan [2] http://bit.ly/1dh0E5w (Google image) [3] http://plus.maths.org/content/music-primes [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_hypothesis

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by thaumasiotes on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @04:10AM (#6767048)
> I vaguely recall a claim that the greatest discoveries aren't being made by people in their twenties any more just because math is so huge you need ten years of study to get to the bleeding edge.

This depends heavily on what you mean. Of course there are areas of math requiring ten (or more) years of study before you can work in them. However...

- In theory, all high school graduates have studied math for at least twelve years.

- There are many, many problems on "the bleeding edge" of mathematics, in the sense that no one can solve them, but which can be stated in terms an algebra student would have no trouble understanding. Further, there are many mathematical techniques which are "advanced" in the sense that they are never taught in school, but are "simple" in the sense that the algebra student I mentioned earlier would have no trouble following a proof using them. If you're interested, try reading through the archives of Tanya Khovanova's blog; she has plenty of examples of IMO problems and special Soviet math exam problems for Jews.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by gizmo686 on Thursday November 21, 2013 @12:05AM (#6773146)
The difficulty with proving bleeding edge results in mathematics is normally not that the question is particularly advanced or difficult to understand, but rather that if it had an easy solution, then it would likely have been solved by now.

The only times I can think of where this is not the case is after a major, yet easy to understand, discovery makes a lot of formerly hard problem easy, or a field of mathematics that is either young enough, or uninteresting enough that it has not yet had significant time devoted to it.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by GigabyteCoin on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:53AM (#6766537)
> an earth-shaking discovery made by a man in his fifties who was barely within academia

It's stories like these that make me jump with joy inside every time I think about the wonder that is the internet and the possibilities that creates for us as a human race.

The possibility that exists by having things like free 2,000 book encylcopedias (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ASize_of_Wikipedia#H...) at the fingertips of nearly every human on earth is just mind boggling.

I won't be surprised if Joe Average discovers the cure for Cancer tomorrow. Or AIDS. Or our fossil fuel addiction.

In fact, I expect those things to happen sooner than most of us might think.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by Ar-Curunir on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @01:59AM (#6766716)
Nah, I don't think the average person will discover the cure to cancer.

While access to freely available knowledge is increasing, this knowledge is mostly broad, not deep. So we can have information on a lot of topics, but these topics aren't covered in very much depth.

Also keep in mind that Zhang was very much within the fold of academia when he discovered the 70 million upper bound on the separation of primes.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by thaumasiotes on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @04:15AM (#6767057)
> While access to freely available knowledge is increasing, this knowledge is mostly broad, not deep. So we can have information on a lot of topics, but these topics aren't covered in very much depth.

This has bothered me quite a bit. I want to go to wikipedia and be able to find, to use Feynman's term, a map of the cat. I don't understand why it's not there.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by rimantas on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @05:30AM (#6767257)
I expect nothing like this will ever happen. You underestimate effort and amount of work (and training) needed for such breakthroughs. Also the cost of the research. I am afraid most of the low hanging fruits are already gone. You don't find cure for cancer just by reading a scientific journal over the evening tea and then dreaming up the formula.
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by velis_vel on Thursday November 21, 2013 @11:37AM (#6775592)
I don't think that you can really call a professor with a PhD 'Joe Average'.
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by crassus on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @02:15AM (#6766765)
Precisely the reason to push for free and open academic journals that anybody can read.
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by rrrrtttt on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:26AM (#6766472)
Established scientists stop producing groundbreaking results because of tenure. Once you have tenure, the biggest incentive to work hard goes away; it's simple economics. (Hence "mathematics is a young man's game".)
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by adiM on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @01:08AM (#6766569)
For most people in academia, the incentive to work hard is not the fear to get fired, but the intrinsic satisfaction of working on a certain class of problems. Tenure does not take that intrinsic value away.
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by pmiller2 on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @01:14AM (#6766585)
I take it you've never heard the term "6 year job interview"? :)
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by thedufer on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @01:44AM (#6766673)
Pretty sure that applies to the bullshit you have to do that isn't research. I'd be surprised to find a math professor who isn't there because he/she enjoys studying math - there just aren't any other good reasons to do it.
Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by XorNot on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @06:16AM (#6767384)
You might want to look into what "groundbreaking" entails because excited news articles lead nowhere all the damn time.

Tenure exists to escape people from the "3 papers a year" BS which means you get a neverending stream of minor refinements and very little thorough investigation.

Re:Mathematicians Team Up on Twin Primes Conjecture by dominotw on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @12:17PM (#6769339)
Ah yes. Andrew wiles preferred to work on his own and he 'disappeared' for years before he came up with his proof.