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Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @01:54PM (#6258741)
It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in the same situation.

Yes, they talked about Ramadan and his situation, and where the parking lot is around his house, and none of this should be surprising to anyone. They're using conversation to try to determine whether he's lying, gaps in his story, nervousness, and so on. Any single person they talk to will get a conversation that is individualized to the person. Reading too much into it may be misleading.

This isn't intended to defend the TSA (universally reviled), or any of the other agencies, but repeatedly setting off an explosion detector is 95% of this story. The rest is just surrounding decorations.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by steven777400 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:11PM (#6258883)
My bags have set off the explosives detector before, twice. (In both cases, due a heart medication that apparently triggers false positives). I was not taken into a back room or interrogated for hours. They searched me and my bags in more detail, asked some questions, and concluded it must have been a false positive. The experience took about 15 minutes each time.

This was a few years back, but I don't recall if it was post-9/11 or not. It seems like even setting off a detector doesn't, alone, justify the extreme reaction the authorities took in the author's case.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by Tloewald on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:31PM (#6259039)
If you set off a gas chromatograph for nitroglycerine and then say you have heart tablets then you'll be fine. He obviously set off a specific trigger AND couldn't account for it (although they clearly tried to get him to).

Back in the 70s or 80s a group of friends in Britain were sentenced for participating in a terrorist act because they set off an explosive test. They spent years in prison before it was determined that it was a false positive caused by the coating of a popular brand of playing card.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by justin66 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:50PM (#6259984)
> If you set off a gas chromatograph for nitroglycerine and then say you have heart tablets then you'll be fine. He obviously set off a specific trigger AND couldn't account for it (although they clearly tried to get him to).

That isn't what that line of interrogation was for. The TSA goons probably don't know anything about chemistry or how their machine works, they were simply trying to rattle him and get him to say something incriminating.

Specifically: when somebody says, several different ways, "why are you setting off my explosive detector?" what you do not want to say is "I don't know! I don't have any explosives!" Because it will elicit a response indicating that nobody was accusing you have of having explosives, why are you being so defensive, etc. etc.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by cdonnellytx on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:01PM (#6259278)
Too bad they couldn't even tell him what set it off, since he clearly did not remember:

  "I can’t think of anything. What does it say is triggering the alarm?" I asked.

  "I’m not going to tell you! It’s right here on my sheet, but I don’t have to tell you what it is!" he exclaimed, pointing at his clipboard.

''EDIT: formatting''
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by Tloewald on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:20PM (#6259435)
Not letting him drink water or whatever is simply inhumane. Not giving him information is simply a judgment call or policy decision. Perhaps it is against policy to reveal which exact molecules their machines react to.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by aspensmonster on Thursday August 22, 2013 @07:12PM (#6260706)
So what you're saying is all I have to do is carry heart tablets and then I can pass nitroglycerine through security? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's more complicated than that. But I can't help but feel that if someone really wanted explosives to get onto a plane then they wouldn't try walking it through passenger security. Or maybe they'd just say the magic words that indicate a false positive and walk straight through.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by AUmrysh on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:56PM (#6259636)
One time I brought peanut butter in my luggage. It looks like plastic explosive on the scanner so they have to open it and test it. Our teacher actually advocated that we bring it and those 36 packs of AA batteries because they look like plastic explosives and bullets, respectively. He really liked to mess with the TSA.

This was post 9-11, I don't know how we didn't all get arrested.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by einhverfr on Thursday August 22, 2013 @10:38PM (#6261383)
Hmmm Peanut butter doesn't even seem like a liquid, aerosol, or gel, though the TSA would probably put it in that category these days.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by waqf on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:28PM (#6259011)
> (In both cases, due a heart medication that apparently triggers false positives).

Presuming that this was nitroglycerin, then in some sense it's not a false positive at all. It's a dessert wax and a floor topping! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroglycerin

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by unimpressive on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:40PM (#6259549)
>dessert wax

What happens if you put a candle in one of these desserts and let it burn down to the food? (Or it tips over)

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:28PM (#6259016)
Extended explosion swabbing -- and improved and more discrete equipment -- came about after the failed attempt to blow up Northwest Airlines Flight 253 to Detroit in 2009 (an almost tragedy that many quickly forget).

In earlier iterations of spam filters, it would simply prefix the subject with [SPAM], just as explosion detectors caught lots of things and they quickly dismissed them. As it got better it started moving them to a spam folder. Now it simply moves them directly to deleted. Of course the same thing happens with explosion detectors, where initially it picked up many similar compounds, and eventually started getting much more discrete, and the probability that it actually caught something of significance went from "not really" to "might actually be something real".

Traveling in 2013 is not the same as traveling in 2002. Traveling in New York City is not the same as traveling in Austrlia. All of these are factors that influence the probability that technology is a viable input, and the corresponding risk factors.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by justin66 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:41PM (#6259928)
> Of course the same thing happens with explosion detectors, where initially it picked up many similar compounds, and eventually started getting much more discrete, and the probability that it actually caught something of significance went from "not really" to "might actually be something real".

Unless you've got some hard data on false positives, I don't believe it for a minute. As far as I can tell the equipment's warning value has gone from "almost certainly not explosives" to "almost certainly not explosives."

That doesn't make the equipment useless (well, it might) but it'd be nifty if the people operating it understood its pretty obvious limitations. Remember why we're even having this conversation.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @05:16PM (#6260140)
I don't have hard data (the actual details are often considered confidential), but for the marketing claims of the various makers who all trumpet greater selectivity and the rejection of false positives. Which makes sense, as security is a huge, incredibly competitive industry, and these people are all competing for the world's paranoia dollars.

Because the TSA gained nothing wasting their time on this. There are the normal conspiratorial claims among the comments that someone triggered the "brown guy" button just to harass him (again, only someone who has never been near a large North American city could say such a thing), for what? What did the TSA, NYPD, FBI, and whoever else gain from this giant waste of time?

Something triggered on a molecule or taggant that they couldn't easily exclude, so they tried to help him assist them in excluding it. He couldn't, so they had to exhaust all avenues.

Unless they have countless agents and countless rooms, this isn't something they do with any regularity at all.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by justin66 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @05:45PM (#6260304)
> I don't have hard data (the actual details are often considered confidential), but for the marketing claims of the various makers who all trumpet greater selectivity and the rejection of false positives. Which makes sense, as security is a huge, incredibly competitive industry, and these people are all competing for the world's paranoia dollars.

Putting aside the merit of the idea of that the government bidding process ends with purchase of the best product, it's worth noting that just like with the government agents, the manufacturer isn't actually liable to anyone who suffers when its machines produce a false positive. Insofar as the manufacturer has any incentive to improve in this regard, its incentive comes from the same people who are putting on this security theater.

> Because the TSA gained nothing wasting their time on this. [blah blah] What did the TSA, NYPD, FBI, and whoever else gain from this giant waste of time?

Not sure why you threw this in here but it's so wrong that it's kind of hard to know where to begin. First, the superficial and obvious: TSA and NYPD are paid overtime. They had MONEY to gain from this exercise. Their financial incentives are exactly opposed to those of the person they are detaining.

Less superficial, perhaps equally obvious: a bureaucracy does stuff because that's the stuff the bureaucracy does. It's a big, mindless machine whose prime directive is to continue to exist. Everyone understands that they need to be seen to be DOING SOMETHING, and there are plenty of true believers who think doing that something is the most important thing in the world. That's the reason for some much of the crud we deal with now.

You might have made the mistake of thinking we're dealing with fully rational actors here. Congratulations if you've never worked for a bureaucracy and you don't get any of this.

> Something triggered on a molecule or taggant that they couldn't easily exclude, so they tried to help him assist them in excluding it. He couldn't, so they had to exhaust all avenues.

Orwell would be proud.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @06:05PM (#6260408)
So you're anti-government and cynical. Welcome to about 99% of the online community.

There are people who actually want to blow up planes. There have been a number of attempts. These machines detect the things that are found in bombs.

There are a lot of examples of "security theater" (moreso in the private industry, it should be noted, like the ridiculously useless badges and disaffected employees at most office buildings), but explosives material detectors most certainly are not. One day we'll walk down a Total Recall type hall and it will know who we are and everything on or about us, but until then we have some inconveniences.

And groan, good old Orwell makes a cliched showing. Yes, we all read 1984 in grade school. Pulling it out as a trope to anything the government does (even where entirely rational and related to an actual threat, and overwhelming painless and transparent) is boorish internet pundit behavior.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by justin66 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @06:27PM (#6260500)
> So you're anti-government and cynical.

No, you don't get to label me that easily. (why do you want to?) I believe there is a differentiation to be made between good government and bad government. Security services CAN be made to work.

> And groan, good old Orwell makes a cliched showing. Yes, we all read 1984 in grade school.

I was responding to a specific statement of yours which was pretty spectacularly stupid. I'm not saying YOU are stupid, and I think maybe you can get a handle on why it's so creepy and classically Orwellian. Let's examine it:

> Something triggered on a molecule or taggant that they couldn't easily exclude, so they tried to help him assist them in excluding it. He couldn't, so they had to exhaust all avenues.

"They tried to help him assist them in excluding it." They tried to help him assist them. Are you getting it yet? They were just trying to help him! Against his will they detained him and tried to compel him to do something, but they were just trying to help. To help HIM! To help him ASSIST them, why wouldn't he want to assist them? It'd be awfully suspicious if he didn't want to assist them. Every good person likes to help and to assist, am I right?

They tried to force him to solve a problem that they created with their own machine and they weren't going to let him go about his business until he did it. For his own good. In what sense is your take on that - the wording, at least - not Orwellian?

> Pulling it out as a trope to anything the government does (even where entirely rational and related to an actual threat, and overwhelming painless and transparent) is boorish internet pundit behavior.

Since there wasn't an actual threat, and the process wasn't painless, and since I certainly wouldn't and haven't "pulled it out as a trope to anything the government does" it's hard to understand what the heck you're talking about.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by outside1234 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @09:23PM (#6261182)
> What did the TSA, NYPD, FBI, and whoever else gain from this giant waste of time?

Employment, pensions, and control.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by cwkoss on Thursday August 22, 2013 @05:19PM (#6260166)
I don't think explosion swabbing detectors are operating in a free market: they are built off funds from government contracts. There isn't much reason to expect a similar pace of innovation as for email servers.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mpyne on Thursday August 22, 2013 @08:18PM (#6260948)
Why not? Money is money, after all. The contracts don't say how to do it, they say what to do. There's plenty of room for competition in these types of things, from how to meet the Performance Work Statement all the way to how to setup the internal org. structure to most efficiently handle contract compliance overhead.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by walls on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:15PM (#6258919)
I don't think any airports had 'explosive detectors' before 9/11.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by justin66 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:59PM (#6259655)
I was searched with one around the year 2000, IIRC, at the San Francisco airport. I think it was pretty experimental.

edit: there might have been a similar setup at Orly in France in 1997, come to think of it. The striking thing there was the soldiers with rifles (just 3 of them, but walking around) and the way they searched one of my grandmother's bags when the x-ray showed something that looked like a grenade. (it was glass in a weird shape) They were friendly and had a sense of humor about it, and it didn't slow us down, which all made a big difference.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by swombat on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:22PM (#6258970)
Most European airports have had those as long as I can remember (definitely since the mid 90s).
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jacquesm on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:44PM (#6259139)
Maybe bomb detectors but the explosive detectors ('puffers') are relatively new as far as I know.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by dhimes on Thursday August 22, 2013 @06:13PM (#6260446)
It was a huge political budget fight in the 90s. Clinton/Gore published a white paper detailing the threat of terrorism as the biggest threat to national security. They called for the fancy new detectors and what-not at airports.

The Republicans, who controlled Congress, said that the big threat was from nukes from unfriendly states (later dubbed 'the axis of evil') didn't permit the funding and instead increased 'Star Wars' funding (anti-missile tech).

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mistercow on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:08PM (#6259340)
>and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in the same situation.

We don't have to have direct knowledge of the impossibly specific situation you've constructed. The FBI agent flat out said that it was about his race when he said "a person of your… background".

And explosive detectors are not really there to find bombs. They are there to reduce manual searches. If they just wanted to find bombs, they could just search everyone. Since that is impractical on multiple counts, the explosive detector is valuable because it narrows down the space. Once you have taken the person aside, searched them, searched their stuff, and come up with no additional evidence ("brown" isn't evidence), it's time to let them go.

Finally, this isn't just about racism, but is also about the TSA and the cops being dangerously incompetent bullies. Instead of being polite and decent, they were rude and intimidating. Someone being reluctant and apprehensive under those circumstances is not strong evidence of wrongdoing.

And when they questioned him about the chemicals he had handled, they wouldn't even tell him what they had found. That's the kind of "withholding information" tactic you would use if you were playing the role of a detective without actually having any idea how to investigate. What purpose does it serve? If he were a terrorist, he'd know what chemicals were in his explosives. The only situation where that information is actually a secret is the one where the suspect is innocent.

In other words, they repeatedly created situations that either made guilt indistinguishable from innocence, or where they'd distinguish them inversely. This is, to put it mildly, "poor form".

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mapt on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:08PM (#6259715)
As much problem as I have with the TSA and this event...

Offering hints as to how a person they do not trust would dissuade their suspicions is a way to guarantee that everyone dissuades their suspicions. It is an information-theoretically invalid way of pursuing an investigation of anything.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mistercow on Thursday August 22, 2013 @06:44PM (#6260577)
The line of questioning is almost entirely useless in the first place, and the way that they will interpret the evidence is likely the opposite of the way it should be interpreted.

Ordinary people know basically nothing about explosives, or what everyday compounds might be explosives. At best they might say "Oh, I did some gardening, so I handled some fertilizer", or "I was at a shooting range yesterday". They might remember a chemical they had read off the label of something they used recently, if it's common enough, so if you told them what you found, they could tell you where they saw it.

Terrorists, on the other hand, are likely to know all about common chemicals that can be used in explosives. If you tell them what you found, you aren't giving them any new information, and they can just tell you it came from whatever they got it from (and claim they were using it innocently).

So giving a satisfactory answer should actually be evidence of the person being a terrorist. Of course, if a TSA agent were smart enough to realize that, a smart terrorist might pick up on that, and say "I don't know, I used some bug spray this morning?"

Most terrorists don't actually seem to be smart, but in the case that you were evaluating the evidence correctly, you'd have to downgrade its strength on that basis (even more so once you factor in the non-terrorist chemistry geeks, who are probably orders of magnitude more common than terrorists, and less likely to consider that you might take a plausible answer as evidence against them).

In short "what have you handled recently that might have lead to you having explosive residue on you?" is a pointless question, whether you tell them what you found or not.

As a side note, it's overly simplistic to say that "giving hints" is invalid in general, because the definition of "giving hints" is vague. Should they just ask "Why did our screen flash red?" instead of telling you it was the explosive detector? Should they be even more vague and ask "Why are we interrogating you?" Getting useful information from someone requires that you communicate specifically. So if the line of inquiry were useful at all (and if it is even meaningful to reason about such a hypothetical), it would be more useful to ask about the specific substance.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:25PM (#6259468)
We don't have to have direct knowledge of the impossibly specific situation you've constructed.

Instead we have people saying "I am white and I set one off in 2003 in Australia and they let me through, therefore that demonstrates that this is racism" (ignore every case where non-whites got a couple of quick questions and went through).

And how utterly provincial are so many people on here? What backwaters do they live in? Go to JFK or Newark and tell me that they pick on non-whites, and I'll tell you that they must have hundreds of thousands of employees working around the clock to manage that.

Further what an FBI agent purportedly said during the conversational stage is utterly irrelevant. We don't know what explosive material the sensor detected, but by the response it seems likely that it was rare.

Finally, this isn't just about racism

Indeed, it isn't, even though the overwhelming majority of comments, and the title itself, portends racism. In another comment someone criticizes me for apparently claiming that their treatment is reasonable. Yet never did I say their treatment was reasonable. Who would?

they wouldn't even tell him what they had found

Because they believe in the flawed concept of security through obscurity. They likely imagine that giving that information away shows their hand.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mistercow on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:42PM (#6259560)
>Instead we have people saying "I am white and I set one off in 2003 in Australia and they let me through, therefore that demonstrates that this is racism" (ignore every case where non-whites got a couple of quick questions and went through).

You are correct that anecdotal reports of white people not being harassed after setting off the detectors is not particularly strong evidence.

> Go to JFK or Newark and tell me that they pick on non-whites, and I'll tell you that they must have hundreds of thousands of employees working around the clock to manage that.

Racism is not a matter of "white or non-white". The "blows up planes" stereotype is specific to people who look "Arab". And of course they're not harassing everyone who fits their stereotype; the explosive detector surely did play a role (and people suggesting that it was intentionally triggered are being silly). It's just that your estimate of that being "95% of this story" is grotesquely optimistic.

>Further what an FBI agent purportedly said during the conversational stage is utterly irrelevant.

Perhaps the FBI agent didn't have a sense of the situation before he arrived. I would guess, given his position and the fact that he seemed to be the most competent and perceptive person the author dealt with, that his assessment is as reliable as we can expect to get. It certainly isn't irrelevant. That it was said in conversation is not very relevant. Are you suggesting that he made that comment inaccurately to reassure the author? "You have to understand, we're just very racist"?

As for various things that other commenters have said, I'm not sure what response you want from me. I didn't say them. I'm sorry people can't read?

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by wfunction on Friday August 23, 2013 @04:18AM (#6262321)
>> they wouldn't even tell him what they had found

> Because they believe in the flawed concept of security through obscurity

No, it's rather common sense actually.

If a suspect wanted to blow something up, he would never admit he has the chemicals he has with him (because he wouldn't be sure that the cops have actually detected that chemical, and not made some other mistake that will let him go through).

But if the cops tell him what they've found, then he'll know he's screwed, and will try to make up an excuse.

On the other hand, if he admits what the chemical is himself (probably with a proper excuse), chances are that he's probably innocent, and they'd let him go.

So, telling him what he's being accused of having actually makes it harder for him to get himself out of the mess plausibly.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mistercow on Friday August 23, 2013 @03:11PM (#6265674)
I find your reasoning that the terrorist "would never admit" anything about the real chemicals. If he used ammonium nitrate, he can easily say "I was using some fertilizer in my garden". If he used gunpowder, he can say "I was at the shooting range earlier", or "I was setting off fireworks with friends last night". If neither of those are what they found, they're still normal-sounding excuses that a person might give. He can give a long list of innocuous chemicals with those thrown in, and you won't have any way of distinguishing his story from that of an innocent person.

But if the terrorist hasn't thought this far ahead, then his excuse is probably not going to be very good. Tell a person exactly what you found, and you might catch the terrorist off guard and be able to tell that they're lying from the weird excuse, while a normal person will either say "I don't know where that would have come from", or would actually have a plausible excuse.

It's still not a very useful question even in that latter case, but it's marginally more useful if you actually name the chemical.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by codegeek on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:02PM (#6258818)
You are missing the point. yes he set off the explosion detector for which he should have been questioned and he was. The issue is how they did it. No water for hours ? You seriously think that it is ok ? The rest 5% decorations that you were talking about is lot more than just decorations.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by fennecfoxen on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:37PM (#6259082)
The bit that got me as incontrovertibly hilariously-stupid was... they got all upset that he hadn't identified to them that he'd checked some baggage.

If the guy is an adversary, you can't rely on him to bring that fact to your attention. If the guy isn't an adversary, his failure to identify it is (by definition) innocent in nature. In neither sense does harassing the guy about it make sense.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ctdonath on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:20PM (#6259437)
You think that was a stupid mistake? Probably a deliberate documented procedure: throw the person off-balance with some unexpected "stupid" weirdness.

"You told the border guard you're entering the country to work." "What? No! I never said that! I'm entering to marry my fiancé!"

"I'm here because of the MBA conference." "NBA? We didn't know there was a basketball event in this building."

Yeah, I've seen it a number of times.

They weren't upset. They were manipulating the author. They weren't stupid. They already had agents heading to the apartment to investigate.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by greedo on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:08PM (#6259719)
And throw in the fact that lying to a Federal agent can lead to felony charges, the behavior of his interrogators is very typical.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jarek on Thursday August 22, 2013 @08:53PM (#6261069)
My favourite was a CBP asking me "what do you do for work" (lovely unspecific question, that) then pretending to get upset with me for not telling him I was unemployed at the moment. I resisted telling him I personally don't consider unemployment a career...
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by btilly on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:20PM (#6259431)
They were hoping to use his failure to identify it as proof that he was an adversary.

When it turned out that he had identified it, the person who had hoped that now had egg on his face. (I wouldn't be surprised if in another room they had figured this out as proof so that they could get him.)

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jonahx on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:19PM (#6259422)
> No water for hours?

I often go until late afternoon or longer without realizing I haven't had any water to drink. This really doesn't seem that bad. The OP's claim that his mouth was like sandpaper because he hadn't had water for a few hours reads like hyperbole to me.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by codegeek on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:25PM (#6259466)
We all go a long time without water or realization but on a regular usual day when we are not under pressure by the TSA or police or what not. This situation is not a hyperbole.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by pooriaazimi on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:45PM (#6259951)
And Rumsfeld said "I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to four hours?" and asked for detainees to be forced to stand up in "stress positions" for more than the previously specified (and already inhuman and torturous) 4 hours...

N.B.: I'm not pulling out a strawman, or claiming you agree in any way with what Rumsfeld did. I'm just pointing out that your logic could, and actually does, lead to such inhumane practices. So don't be too hasty to dismiss stuff like this just based on your personal experience and preferences. I'd personally die without drinking ample amount of water (not an illness; just habit, and it would make me really, really nervous and angry if you denied me water).

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jonahx on Thursday August 22, 2013 @05:01PM (#6260055)
To be clear, they absolutely should have given him water. I just don't find some of the comparisons and adjectives that people are using to describe their failure to do so warranted. The only part of what happened to him that seems truly unjust and worthy of outrage is the purely speculative accusation that they broke into his apartment.

There is very little consideration in this thread for the shittiness and stressfulness of the TSA jobs, especially when faced with passengers who refuse the scan and set off the bomb detectors. If you want to argue that TSA should employ highly skilled workers and pay them better, I'm all for that. But given that's not the case, workers being incompetent and rude to people who set off bomb detectors, and holding them too long, doesn't seem like human rights violation to me. It's just a crappy and annoying and stressful situation.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ck2 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:00PM (#6258802)
How do you know they don't have a button to push to make it give a false positive so they can hold people?

Cops have dogs trained to give false positives on signal and we are constantly spied on and lied to by our own intelligence agencies.

So please don't tell me this idea is far fetched, I think it's very plausible.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by legitsource on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:03PM (#6258821)
The dogs aren't purposefully trained to give false positives, that's just a side effect of how social dogs are. They want to please their handler and the handler gives them rewards.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jlgreco on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:26PM (#6259002)
It could be the dog trying to naturally please the cop, or the cop could have inadvertently trained the behavior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans), or the training may very well have been deliberate.

It would be damn hard to prove the last, but what is relatively easy to demonstrate is that dogs do give false signals that correspond to certain biases of the owners. Regardless of whether the last is true or not, the way we view detector dogs needs to be revisited in light of these clear biases. As it is, detector dogs seem to be barely better than dosing rods.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by fnordfnordfnord on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:13PM (#6258901)
The handlers give the dogs false cues, obviously.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by fnordfnordfnord on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:18PM (#6258931)
There is no button labeled "Fuck the 4th Amendment" but a clever technician might know how to manipulate the results, if needed. But why would they need to? They could just lie.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ars on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:14PM (#6259387)
The bigger question is why would they? To waste their own time?
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ctdonath on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:23PM (#6259458)
No, because sometimes they need a plausible excuse to act on other suspicions.

When working security, agents can sense something is wrong but not have it articulable enough in legal terms to act on. When the suspect says "why are you searching me?" it's a lot easier on everyone to say "the detector beeped, you heard it" than "I've got an uneasy feeling about you". (Not legal, not warranted, just easier.)

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ars on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:30PM (#6259495)
I'm pretty sure they don't need any excuse at all. They can just do a "random" screening - which is designed exactly for that.

The only reason to keep screening him over and over is if the detector really did find something, otherwise they are just wasting their own time because of a nebulous feeling.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ctdonath on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:08PM (#6259711)
Or they're playing psychological games. Repeated pointless activity tends to make people crack fast.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ars on Thursday August 22, 2013 @05:03PM (#6260062)
You still didn't answer the question of why.

Why make this person crack.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ctdonath on Thursday August 22, 2013 @10:02PM (#6261294)
Uh... The person has already exhibited enough suspicious behavior and circumstantial evidence to get frisked & questioned in a back room and their ticket cancelled. Indications are this is the kind of person being looked for, and if is, at this point is trying very hard to not reveal any further evidence of ill intent. Time to crack the egg and see if it's rotten.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by zalew on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:51PM (#6259200)
> How do you know they don't have a button to push to make it give a false positive so they can hold people?

I've never been in the US, but when I travel (Europe, MENA), I am always chosen by airport security, even in my own country when leaving, for an additional search (less annoying than a TSA patdown I read of, but still), and when I asked recently why is it always me, a guy answered I was randomly selected by the gate. Got to start buying lottery tickets.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:09PM (#6258862)
Sure it's plausible. It's just incredibly unlikely (not least because this notion that the TSA is some white power apparatus seems to be at odds with the reality that the TSA is a very diverse workforce. Add that the passenger list in most urban centers is incredibly diverse, and this idea that it's just xenophobia seems quite nonsensical. Another post talks about how this demonstrates how the US views "foreigners" -- have these people never been to New York City, where this happened? It is about the most inclusive, vibrant, multicultural place on the planet).

Indeed, the narrative of this very story seemed to be overwhelmingly focused on figuring out why he was setting off the explosives detectors. They repeatedly went through his belongings and tried to figure out if he was indeed in the business of making explosions. They almost certainly used a secret warrant to go into his apartment to, again, see if there was an explosives lab there. They really thought they had something when the explosives detector found something it didn't like, and there is no rational reason they would do this just because someone was Muslim (again, Muslims make hundreds of millions of flights in the US -- do people seriously think this is what they go through?)

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by solistice on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:35PM (#6259068)
Also, if you have a "secret button" used by hundrets of TSA officials, with at least some borderline irresponsible, how long do you think it takes for those news to leak out? Two weeks?

The only way to keep a secret for long periods is that few know about it.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ganeumann on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:00PM (#6259273)
Well, we had thousands of people violating the 4th Amendment willy-nilly looking at our email and phone data and it's taken years for that to credibly leak out. Bucking authority like that is not only unusual, it's downright rare. Don't count on it.

Not that I believe that there's a secret button.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by omegaham on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:01PM (#6259662)
However, keep in mind that the NSA doesn't employ that many people. Furthermore, these people mostly work in the same area, have been vetted repeatedly, and are watched. The TSA, on the other hand, works everywhere, has many more people, and do not have the same scrutiny applied to their employees.

Interestingly enough, most classified information doesn't get leaked the same way that Snowden leaked his documents. It's mostly due to carelessness. The best example of this is deployment schedules. One of my coworkers was scheduled to go on a Marine Expeditionary Unit (ship that goes around the Pacific just in case something happens). The date of departure was classified. Someone told his wife, who told all of her friends on Facebook. Oops.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by cwkoss on Thursday August 22, 2013 @05:23PM (#6260190)
If you include contractors whose primary income is from providing services to the NSA, the number of people who had some knowledge of their surveillance is probably approaching half of a million.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by solistice on Friday August 23, 2013 @10:38AM (#6263844)
But even those contractors are professionals if they get access to anything of value.

Trying to keep a "detain"-button secret, having it manned by thousands of people that only have a high school diploma OR a year of work experience in security/aviation/screening, doesn't sound easy (those are by the way the education requirements for a TSO according to usajobs.gov). Since a leak could stem from a minor overstep of their contract (ohh, I told a buddy about it, big deal right?), and there are frequent policy violations by agents, it does look grim for the existence of such a button.

I heard of them kicking the machines to make them go off though, so there's a "button", and it's public knowledge that they will use it if they want a pat down.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by chimeracoder on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:12PM (#6258894)
> How do you know they don't have a button to push to make it give a false positive so they can hold people?

That exact thought crossed my mind afterwards.

In the end, they never showed me any evidence that the machine had actually detected any explosive. Nor did they figure out what could have caused the "false positive".

Maybe they did detect something, but then what's equally surprising is the thought that they would then just let someone go after they have walked into JFK with explosives on their body.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by brown9-2 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:39PM (#6259909)
What incentive does a TSA inspector have to make him or her want to do a private pat down on a traveler like in this story?

What does the TSA agent get out of needlessly fucking with some random person?

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by honzzz on Friday August 23, 2013 @05:14AM (#6262469)
There are many people who enjoy controlling or even abusing others and positions that give people power over others obviously attract those people - psychopathy prevalence in those groups is statistically higher than in general population. This is not as rare as you might think - if you work in a home for elderly with Alzheimer's disease (who are especially defenseless) I can almost guarantee that apart from caring hard-working employees you also encounter a psychopath (although nowadays this problem is relatively well known and the screening of potential employees is much better than it used to be).

Also I can imagine a number of rationalizations and psychological mechanisms that can explain how working for this kind of organization affects people - the Stanford Prison Experiment etc.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by JonnieCache on Friday August 23, 2013 @06:44AM (#6262675)
>Also I can imagine a number of rationalizations and psychological mechanisms that can explain how working for this kind of organization affects people - the Stanford Prison Experiment etc.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3025

Not that I don't broadly agree.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by honzzz on Friday August 23, 2013 @07:47AM (#6262883)
I up-voted your comment, that comic strip is spot on, but I was trying to express my feelings more than stating some general statement about human nature.

I remember that when I was reading Zimbardo's book I was most touched when he was describing how he himself was under the influence of the experiment and his empathy to "subjects" deteriorated. Only after his girlfriend expressed her concerns he realized that something went horribly wrong. We are influenced by the context, behaviour of others, interpretation of the situation etc. way more than we would like to believe and I can easily imagine that if I were one of those TSA agents I could behave in a way that I now find despicable. That's why I think we really need to be aware of those things despite the fact that they might not be conclusively proven as a 'part of human nature'.

EDIT: also let me mention another IMO super-interesting book about this subject: The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness by Erich Fromm. One of the best books I've ever red.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by kylebrown on Thursday August 22, 2013 @10:40PM (#6261390)
They appear more vigilant to their managers and overseers, for one. If every single traveler is simply ushered through, it could look like they're being lazy (not necessarily efficient). And there is a clear bureaucratic incentive to meeting a quota of passengers who will get extra scrutiny. Without marking at least some minimal number of passengers for increased scrutiny, the TSA interrogators, FBI stand-by, etc would have nothing to do and no opportunity to gain real-world "practice" applying their job training and skills.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by lukifer on Thursday August 22, 2013 @09:55PM (#6261279)
If you don't think there are people who derive enjoyment from authority or torment for its own sake, you don't know the human race very well.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by nknighthb on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:50PM (#6259186)
I've set off the explosive detector a couple times. I don't take anything but lisinopril and OTC allergy meds. Each incident took 3-5 minutes to resolve, and did not involve any questions not directly related to the screening process. I have no idea what set it off, and as far as I know, neither did the TSA.

Apart from those two times, I've been the focus of TSA attention for more than a few seconds on exactly two other occasions. One was when the x-ray tech was confused by the small flatbed scanner in my carryon, and the other was the day I had to fly with expired ID.

Again, neither occasion took more than about five minutes, and again, they asked me no questions not directly related to the screening process itself.

Also, about half the time I travel on one-way tickets, often between points that my ID does not reflect an address for. I've travelled while tired, I've travelled while stressed/nervous, I've travelled with my hair and beard at every conceivable length/combination, including long beard, short hair, and a completely shaved head.

But I'm white and have a completely Anglo name.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by toddmorey on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:21PM (#6258961)
If events like Oklahoma City, Boston, and Sandy Hook have taught us anything, it's that terrorism doesn't have an ethnic profile. It's not only insulting, but also extremely unsafe to assume otherwise.

I'm surprised and embarrassed by how representatives of my country treated him. I'm embarrassed by their cultural ignorance. There should at least be some better training.

However, this should be a technology discussion and I completely agree with your comment. The question is about the machine, how often it provides a false positive, and how likely it is for someone to come in contact with a legal and common chemical that can set it off. In short: what have we sacrificed for this measure of safety, and does it really provide the advertised benefits?

If we have decently calibrated explosion detectors, then in the unlikely event that they do go off, I for one want that individual questioned very thoroughly, ethnicity and religion aside.

The title of the article should be: "Don't fly after handling Permethrin."

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by Zimahl on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:56PM (#6259240)
First, Sandy Hook/Newtown wasn't terrorism. By definition it was not 'the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.'[1]. It was more of a random spree killing. As for Boston, that's a terrible example because it was committed by Chechen Muslims.

Second, we don't know if there was a false positive. Maybe some cleaner or the bed bug spray do have legitimate bomb-making uses. There's a lot of conjecture in the story and even more in this comment thread.

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism?s=t

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by duggieawesome on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:56PM (#6260017)
Can't forget about the anthrax attacks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by blablabla123 on Friday August 23, 2013 @04:33PM (#6266089)
> Maybe some cleaner or the bed bug spray do have legitimate bomb-making uses.

With bed bug spray you can set up a decent fire, maybe even blast an apartment, cf. my other comment. This is why it's not easy to buy it and that's why you should read the manual. Lovely to hear how many people use highly flammable chemicals without reading the manual.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by sirmarksalot on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:10PM (#6259358)
Add sunscreen to that list as well. I was briefly detained for that when I was coming back from Hawaii. I'd gone to the beach the day before, and used the same jeans, leaving trace amounts of residue.

Really, there are a ton of false-positive substances that we use every day. We need to realize that a false positive can happen to anyone, regardless of their background or morals, and we should treat suspects (for lack of a better word) with respect.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by exhilaration on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:17PM (#6259778)
Is that definitely true? Permethrin sets off the explosive detectors?
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by sandyarmstrong on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:03PM (#6259300)
I think they get false positives all the time.

I am a white male that routinely opts-out of the scanners. I've had many many pat downs. One time my bag registered a false positive and I was also subjected to the "enhanced pat-down".

My experience was totally different from OP's. The TSA officers went out of their way to reassure me that false positives are not uncommon, that there was nothing to be afraid of, etc etc. They asked me a few simple questions, but it felt more like they were making conversation to keep the atmosphere relaxed, rather than interrogating me.

I don't recall if further tests of my bags or clothes indicated explosives, but I was let out of the screening room after ~20 minutes.

I strongly suspect that the respectful treatment I repeatedly receive during my TSA interactions are due to (mostly racial) profiling, and luck.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:34PM (#6259513)
The machines are not binary. They trigger specific materials. Some are going to be much more common than others, and like every process where they have false positives they react differently based upon their incidence rate.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by piyush_soni on Thursday August 22, 2013 @05:47PM (#6260314)
Like ... as common as over the counter bedbug spray?
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @06:16PM (#6260460)
That was conjecture on his part. If permethrin were the cause, it should be very well know as it's a very common insecticide and lice shampoo.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jellicle on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:44PM (#6259943)
The explosive detectors give false positives all the time. Any kind of lotion or hand soap contains glycerin - beep! Any kind of preserved meat product contains nitrates - beep! Fertilizer? Beep! Fireworks? Beep! Heart medication? Beep!

The tests they use are intentionally cheap and fast. Accuracy is not the primary criteria.

For white people you get an extra 30 second pat down. For brown people you get detained and interrogated all day.

Like drug dogs, false positives may be considered a bonus by the security apparatus because it allows the apparatus to work against the discriminated-against class and blame it on something else, as you have just done.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by vecinu on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:55PM (#6260014)
You don't think the tests are cheap and fast to allow waiting lines to move faster and to save money?

Everything would move much slower if you had to wait 5 minutes in an 'expensive and slow' device.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jellicle on Thursday August 22, 2013 @11:10PM (#6261480)
I agree with you entirely - that's the correct kind of test to employ. My point is that getting a positive on such a test doesn't give you grounds to believe someone has handled explosives. Out of every 1000 positives provided by such a test, approximately 1000 are false positives, give or take 1.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by Filligree on Friday August 23, 2013 @08:01AM (#6262924)
Ammonia?

I'm starting to worry about the plane ride on Sunday. I've been handling concentrated ammonia (25%) lately.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by cperciva on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:08PM (#6258856)
he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed)

False positives are fairly common, but usually easily explained -- e.g., "I was target shooting yesterday, there must be some gunpowder on my clothes". A false positive which the individual involved is unable -- or unwilling -- to explain is far less common.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jonah on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:12PM (#6259377)
My dad flew on the 5th of July a couple years ago. While going through security, he commented that they must get a lot of false positives around that time of year. Their response: "We don't test for black powder."
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by omarali on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:27PM (#6259004)
My dad had food (dates) set off the detector. He's now on the no fly list.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by chimeracoder on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:58PM (#6259257)
It's hard to explain a false positive when you're given no context about what it could be.

As explained in other comments, nitroglycerin is found in things as bizarre as desserts.

Unless someone happens to be incredibly knowledgeable about how to make explosives out of common household supplies, it's hard to expect them to say, eg. "Oh, that's because I happened to eat dessert last night and forgot to wash my hands."

(In fact, if somebody does know that, that may be cause for all the more suspicion!)

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ryan-c on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:50PM (#6259601)
I flew out of SFO last week and set off the explosive detector after opting out. My experience was rather different. The TSA agents took my backpack and made a cursory hand-search, doing explosive swab tests on my electronics. After failing to find a source, they took me to the booth to do a more through check. They didn't ask me any questions at all about myself or why I might have set the system off other than the normal 'any sensitive areas' questions. I did volunteer that I'd spilled a small amount of gasoline on myself when fueling my car the previous day and that I was wearing new clothes that had not been washed since purchase. They seemed entirely disinterested. The whole thing took maybe 15 minutes longer than a regular opt-out pat down.

So, apparently that's how it goes when a white male sets the thing off.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mech4bg on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:53PM (#6259621)
I mentioned this in another comment, but I've set off the explosives detector before and had a very similar experience as the original link (taken to a side room, questioned, etc). This is as a white male, although it was in Australia.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by RivieraKid on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:34PM (#6259062)
They searched him very thouroughly. They didn't find any explosive. So it was clearly a false positive. The way they treated him was absolutely disgusting.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by cesarbs on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:20PM (#6259434)
My mother recently came to the US and set off an explosive detector. It took her just a few minutes to get cleared and she was not at all harassed like the author of the post was. Although she comes from Brazil, she is white, blonde and blue-eyed (a descendent of German immigrants). So I guess there is a difference in treatment according to race.

What set off the explosives detector? She had no idea, as that had never happened before to her. The only different thing she had touched hours before was the wipes they gave her during the flight to clean her hands before a meal.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by msrpotus on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:25PM (#6258989)
If it was just the false positive, that would be one thing but the utterly humiliating, quite frankly stupid, way they treated him was completely unjustified. There's nothing that warranted denying him water and not treating him with dignity.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by Tloewald on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:33PM (#6259056)
Yes, but this is how law enforcement behaves across the board. (And when they do give you a drink then they can grab the cup and fingerprint it and run DNA tests, right?)
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by manojlds on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:12PM (#6258896)
Don't forget that his house was potentially searched.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by dotBen on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:41PM (#6259112)
and possibly bugged. I wouldn't live there without a complete sweep, and probably not even after that.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jey on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:16PM (#6259403)
> and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed

How is this a reasonable assumption? When the probability of it legitimately going off is so low, most times it actually goes off are probably just false positives.

> being Hindi

"Hindi" is a language, and "Hindu" is the religion.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by zem on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:55PM (#6260012)
why do people insist on using the phrase "repeatedly set off the explosive detector"? if there is a substance on his person or bags that made the detector register a false positive, it is naturally going to register that same false positive every time it is run over said substance. the repetition means nothing.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by ams6110 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @07:03PM (#6260668)
Because if he hadn't, you'd conclude that the detector registered falsely. The fact that repeated tests had the same result confirms that the detector is working (or, at least, that it's consistent).
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mindslight on Thursday August 22, 2013 @06:22PM (#6260481)
It's an emotional argument to soothe their conscience by asserting that there was a legitimate reason for this to happen.

If you want to see a major part of why the TSA is still molesting, you don't have to go searching for mythical sheeple in far away states - just look at a third of the comments in this thread.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by greedo on Thursday August 22, 2013 @08:20PM (#6260954)
As much as I agree with your first sentence, I find your second offensive with the use of "sheeple." It's a tired perjorative that makes you look like you belong on some tinfoil covered forum.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mindslight on Thursday August 22, 2013 @08:57PM (#6261083)
Eh, that's why I prefixed it with 'mythical'. There isn't one large group of clueless people that need to receive a message - it's that propaganda is so incessant that for every topic, it overloads a significant fraction of critical thinkers and tricks them into supporting that broken system because they crave simplicity.

Also, I had a tinfoil covered basement once. It was pretty sweet.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by greedo on Thursday August 22, 2013 @09:30PM (#6261201)
Ah, my mistake.

I need to rewatch "Conspiracy Theory." I loved how his apartment was rigged.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @06:42PM (#6260572)
Most airports have layers of ETDs: Quick and "convenient", but slightly more prone to false-positives at screening, and then expensive, slower machines for secondary screening. In a similar way that a breathalyzer positive might yield a blood test.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by danielharan on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:32PM (#6259506)
FTFA: "You’ll have to understand, when a person of your… background walks into here, travelling alone, and sets off our alarms, people start to get a bit nervous."

So it does sound like being brown-skinned had something to do with the ordeal.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by InclinedPlane on Thursday August 22, 2013 @11:37PM (#6261568)
Here we have a situation where someone is being detained and effectively punished (denied food and drink, for example, forced to miss their flight) without any benefit of the legal system. Preventing such things is the entire reason we have a criminal justice system. Within the legal system we have all of these procedures and rights and so forth that have been carefully honed over centuries to ensure that the system is fair and not abusive. Except here we have this bizarre little bubble that is effectively outside the criminal justice system for most intents and purposes which has about the effect one would imagine in such situations.

The detained here has no benefit of counsel, no ability to see the evidence put against them, no presumption of innocence, and so forth. And we can see within this one little example a microcosm of why all of those things are necessary and what happens when they are absent.

No matter how you cut it this individual was effectively punished, the fact that there are almost no safeguards to prevent such abuses of power today should be chilling to everyone.

"Setting off an explosion detector" is not the most important part of this. Imagine the detector as a human being instead (explosives detectors are just as fallible) making an accusation against someone. An accusation is not a conviction. Just because someone cries murder, or rape, or terrorist, even if it's a piece of equipment doing that, we shouldn't jump to conclusions and rip away every right and protection that people have in this country. Except it seems that we are doing just that and to some degree a lot of people are OK with it.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by orblivion on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:25PM (#6259834)
I opted out of the Millimeter waves in Manchester NH airport (BTW, coolest TSA agents I ever met. One of them even said he wouldn't ever go through a backscatter machine himself.). They detected some nitrates or nitrites, I forget which (or what those exactly mean). But that's a potential sign of explosives apparently. It's probably because I had been by a camp fire that morning. If you go camping, or shooting, you should consider cleaning your clothes before going through airport security.

This was a flight to return home, so I didn't ask to leave the airport, but they did give me the option of going through the porno-scanner or staying grounded. I understand that the TSA at least claims that the scanner doesn't actually involve showing anybody an image beyond a diagram (not that I'm shy anyway), and it's nowhere near as risky as the backscatter, so I went for it this one time and I was on my way.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mbateman on Thursday August 22, 2013 @09:27PM (#6261190)
Those tests get false positives all the time. I failed an explosives test once in Denver. The TSA agent guessed correctly that I had been rock climbing. Apparently this happens a lot, no idea why. They let me go after 5 seconds of chatting.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by kevingadd on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:06PM (#6259329)
I've set off a detector before but because I looked like a young white male at the time all they did was screen my bags and have my hands tested again for explosives and send me on my way.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by antjanus on Thursday August 22, 2013 @04:15PM (#6259768)
Let me tell you what would happen and what DID happen to one of my friends who set off the alarm.

A supervisor was called in, he double checked his ID, found out my friend was using some chemicals the day before (working on his apartment). Waved him through right after.

The explanation may be the thing that got him through but it could also be the fact that they told him what chemical he set off and the fact that he's white as hell.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mchanson on Thursday August 22, 2013 @05:04PM (#6260069)
I've set off the machine in question before. I am a american male mid thirties swedish/english/german (and look it). The person assumed the machine was wrong and spent a bit of extra time with me and sent me on my way. This was in 2010.

I do not recall if it was during Ramadan.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by Confusion on Friday August 23, 2013 @08:23AM (#6263003)
If you do the math, it becomes obvious they cannot treat everyone that sets of the explosives detectors in this way, given how many ways there are to trigger false positives. They just don't have, and could not possibly have, the manpower.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by reso on Thursday August 22, 2013 @01:56PM (#6258768)
Agreed. If I set off an explosive detector, I would expect to have a hard time, too.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by goostavos on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:20PM (#6258948)
I've set off the explosion detector before. I didn't receive anything like what OP did. And honestly, I chalk up a decent amount of that up to having the good luck of being white.

I did get pulled into a separate area, and treated like criminal. Two agents stood by me the entire time while another one gave me another pat down. They opened up my backpack and rifled through everything (which was, I think, the most offensive part of everything), and meticulously swabbed and tested each area of my backpack.

I did receive similar questions "Where are you going," "Why are you here," "Why would your bag be setting off our alarm?" etc..

After a few more searches, a few more scans, and a lot more questions they finally let me go through security. Whole process probably took about 20 minutes -- twenty terrifying minutes -- but in the end, it was relatively painless compared to OPs.

I don't think his treatment was in any way justified by setting off an explosive materials detector.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by DannyBee on Thursday August 22, 2013 @03:19PM (#6259425)
"I don't think his treatment was in any way justified by setting off an explosive materials detector."

He set it off multiple times. It is likely you didn't. He could not provide current id, anything that showed his current address, anything to prove any part of his story, etc.

Any attempt to prove any part of his story was met with no available info. His answers were plausible, but again, there was simply nothing concrete he could provide to explain anything.

I can understand the amount of questioning and length of time he was put through. I cannot understand the denial of water/etc.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jarek on Thursday August 22, 2013 @09:02PM (#6261102)
"id" means identification. Your identity doesn't change just because you move. He had "id" just fine. It just didn't have his two-day-old address on it.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by DannyBee on Friday August 23, 2013 @12:46AM (#6261770)
I understand what ID means. You are suppose to report address changes, and in most states, you usually only get 10 days or less to do so. Ignoring that for a second, what you have attempted to refute is not the sum total of the issue here.

The thing is, at every turn there was just a coincidental reason something happened to turn out that way. If you don't think this looks highly suspicious on someone whose hands and bag seems to keep setting off explosive detectors, i don't know what to tell you.

If they aren't supposed to target the people with odd stories who set off explosive detectors, who exactly are they supposed to be targeting?

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jarek on Friday August 23, 2013 @12:57AM (#6261790)
I do not think moving within 10 days of taking a flight is an "odd" story, but I don't think any further discussion will go anywhere.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by DannyBee on Friday August 23, 2013 @12:48PM (#6264712)
Could you at least answer who you believe they are supposed to be targeting if not people who set off explosive detectors and can't provide concrete evidence of anything they say?
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jarek on Friday August 23, 2013 @06:19PM (#6266551)
Claims made by OP that had been backed up:

- "My name is ___" (ID)

- "Until two days ago I lived at NYU" (NYU ID)

- "Previously, I lived at $address" (ID)

Thousands of people in the U.S. fly without business cards or ID listing their current addresses. University students are just one obvious example. This simply isn't uncommon. If you want to target that, you might as well target retirees or snowbirds. Of course, you wouldn't, since you profile based on demographics, ethnicity, etc, in addition to merely not having a current piece of ID or a work phone number.

Explosive detector results, sure. So determine it was a false positive and let them go. It doesn't take 3.5 hours to verify a person and their bag don't have any actual explosives on them. The amount of questioning was not warranted.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by toddmorey on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:31PM (#6259036)
Thanks for sharing that experience. Any idea why you might have set the machine off? Trying to get a feel for how they've balanced how sensitive to make them.

I think there's been too errors: His ethnicity made him endure more interrogation and your ethnicity allowed you to endure less.

I think the next threat to airport security is as likely to be perpetrated by someone who doesn't fit the ethnic profile. Everyone in law enforcement really wants there to be a profile, but looking for one will only lead to the wrong conclusion and costly mistakes.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by jedberg on Thursday August 22, 2013 @09:59PM (#6261286)
My bag set off the explosion detector and I had to have an "enhanced" pat down in private. They agent later admitted to me that the machine I was tested on gives false positives about 50% of the time.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by tripzilch on Friday August 23, 2013 @12:26PM (#6264559)
you don't deal with false positives by doing the exact same test multiple times. that's insane.

given the fact that he did not have any explosives or was planning anything nefarious, this whole story shouldn't have happened (in any free and/or sane country) because other tests and checks should have quickly revealed his innocence.

and from what I get, they did so, but chose to detain and harass him, and break into his house (ffs!) regardless, possibly because religion/race/background/non-WASP-ness

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by alexeisadeski3 on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:04PM (#6258824)
I've always wondered what happens if you set off the detector.

The fact is that they allowed him to fly afterwards. Overall it's not so horrible.

Assuming the thing about the photo isn't true, of course.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by hobs on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:07PM (#6258849)
And made him pay an additional 700 dollars and miss his flight. Huge hassle as far as I can tell.

If you detained and questioned an innocent man and ruined his day costing him a weeks wages for some, wouldn't you do SOMETHING to make up for it?

A decent person would, a bureaucratic organization that is not held accountable sure wont.

Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by skaevola on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:14PM (#6258910)
It was the airline which denied him the flight, not the TSA.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by corresation on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:17PM (#6258925)
JetBlue were total idiots about it, but at that point they were "victims" of this situation as well, and it seemed that the representative simply wanted to exclude him as quickly as they could to wipe their hands of the consequences of it.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by mistercow on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:26PM (#6258999)
If the TSA officer was being truthful when they said the flight would be held, then JetBlue may have just been ensuring that they could take of on time.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by TheCrownedFox on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:18PM (#6258933)
A friend of mine set one off when we were traveling in Australia. We talked with the guard (who very 100% ralaxed) and he said that setting off the detector is incredibly easy. While he was searching my friend's purse, we were told that some of the chemicals used in make up can set it off. After finding nothing, we were free to continue. Took all of 3 minutes, no additional security, no prolonged questioning, just a simple check and go.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by knodi on Thursday August 22, 2013 @02:31PM (#6259033)
That because your friend was a lady or was not of brown skinned.
Re:Don't Fly During Ramadan by TheCrownedFox on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:39PM (#6305100)
She actually was black.