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Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by DigitalSea on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:27AM (#6119771)
The first supposed fact thrown around in the medical costs argument like this is, "Well in India their cost of living is lower, so they charge considerably less, yadda yadda..." but it's obvious the price difference goes way beyond any cost of living gap. That's over $100,000 in price difference, while it is true the cost of living (salary, prices of every day items) in India is considerably less than that of the US, the gap certainly isn't 100k+

It's comparisons like these that really make you sick to your stomach. You don't see this kind of innovation in the American health system because it has been engineered with greed in mind right from the start. The lobbyist super groups, hospitals being paid kickbacks for using an exclusive medical equipment provider, the money hungry mentality of US medical corporations is more than obvious.

I think when your medical system becomes so expensive it's cheaper for people to fly out of the country, pay for accommodation and even some spending money to get the same level of care, if not higher than that of your own country, regardless of cost of living differences and other nation specific costs that's absolutely ridiculous. By the sounds of it, India is going to be the new global superpower if more and more people fly there to pay for medical treatment it benefits their economy in the end (given how a substantial chunk of the population is below the poverty line, this might not be such a bad thing).

A doctor trained in India is no less qualified than a doctor trained in the US. So expertise or training is no excuse either. In-fact I've found Indian trained specialists to be more thorough, careful, understanding and compassionate in comparison to that of Australian trained medical professionals (I'm from Australia). When was the last time you saw or heard of a poor American medical specialist or surgeon?

The question is: Will America ever change their ways? Or will quality medical care only be reserved for those who can afford decent medical insurance or have jobs that provide fair medical benefits?

One thing is for certain, this is submission is going to garner a lot of responses from both sides of the fence if past submissions along these lines are anything to go by.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by kamaal on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:27AM (#6119929)
>>You don't see this kind of innovation in the American health system because it has been engineered with greed in mind right from the start.

As an Indian, I can tell you people here think the same about our health care system. The Doctor in discussion here, Dr Devi Shetty is a sort of a local hero here in Bangalore. And who knows in some years he might as well be a national hero. Its basically because he seems to bring in advantages of doing things in volume + some health insurance based innovations into the whole equation. And I do agree that he is pragmatically altruistic. But such people are exceedingly rare. We are simply fortunate to have him.

I've never been to US, but I can tell you the Indian health care system is if not less is equally greedy compared to their US counterparts. Its just the same.

These days if you don't have health insurance you are more or less screwed. Its just like the US. I mean from whatever I've read about US so far its the very same. Nothing changes. You just feel its cheaper as $1 = 60 rupees. There you get a straight 60x value of your money. That is what it is at the end of the day.

Coming to our system. Forget greed, fraud in the system is so massively high nothing that I write here will explain it. It is extremely common for doctors to order lab tests wholesale even if they are dead sure the patient has no problems at all. Doctors get commissions from testing labs/pharmacies etc for ordering lab tests, medicines. Treatment is purposefully prolonged, patients made to eat all kinds of antibiotics, undergo all sorts of non sense tests because doctors get commissions for it.

The fees for completing your medical course is astronomically high. Capitation fee often runs in crores, the net fee by the time you finish your MD is so high no doubt most doctors have to practically turn into crooks to get something out of it. Add to this nearly more than a decade of studies sets a perfect stage for these sort of activities to happen.

Its just the same old game, as you see in US. Just served differently.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by acchow on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:04AM (#6120022)
> You just feel its cheaper as $1 = 60 rupees. There you get a straight 60x value of your money. That is what it is at the end of the day.

I find the vast majority of people are tripped up by currency conversion, but I'm surprised to find this on HN. In Japan $1 = 100 yen, but certainly I don't feel I have 100x in buying power. A bowl of ramen will cost me $8 in SF; an equivalent bowl will cost me 800 JPY in tokyo.

Let's not even get started on the Korean Won...

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by kokey on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:35AM (#6120205)
I'm surprised that how many otherwise smart people gets tripped up by this. The only time you can deduce something from the exchange rate is if you compare the difference between the two rates over a longer period of time. Then it can roughly tell you things about difference in direction of inflation between the two countries, and the effect on wages and imports/exports. If the difference between the exchange rate between two countries doesn't change for a long time the prices of goods in both countries end up being roughly the same.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by endeavour on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:43AM (#6120403)
"If the difference between the exchange rate between two countries doesn't change for a long time the prices of goods in both countries end up being roughly the same."

Simply not true. Compare the cost of a beer in, say, Thailand and Norway. Are you suggesting if the exchange rate were fixed they would reach parity over time?

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by eigenvector on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:22PM (#6123265)
Compare the cost of anything in Norway, and well, anywhere else. Norway is one of the most expensive countries in the world for foreigners because of it's abnormally high average income.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by vbuterin on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:01AM (#6120474)
Assuming no new disruptions, then yes, economic conditions in the two countries would eventually equalize and prices would differ by at most the shipping cost if one of the two countries happens to have much better natural conditions for producing beer than the other. It's because disruptions are now becoming (have become?) the norm that equilibrium never has time to come close to manifesting itself.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by mistermann on Monday July 29, 2013 @09:03AM (#6120762)
Alcohol is a poor example because of special taxation.

The Big Mac index is better for many reasons, one being Mcdonalds is large enough to mostly optimize everything wherever they operate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by mistercow on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:11PM (#6124684)
I think it's a little more complicated than that. Culture plays a major factor, especially when it leads to niche markets. If a product has a niche demand in country A, and high demand in country B, then the cost in country A can easily remain much higher than the cost in country B. In addition to shipping cost being higher in that case (which is why that difference is hard to abstract away), you have to consider the opportunity cost of keeping it in inventory, the risk of spoilage if the product is perishable, the risk of depreciation if it's technology, etc.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by dougk16 on Monday July 29, 2013 @01:58PM (#6122730)
"but certainly I don't feel I have 100x in buying power"

Sometimes the economics do conveniently work out this way, which is why some people might get confused. For example I lived in Poland for a few years, and at the time a dollar got you about three zloty, and for the majority of day-to-day stuff you did indeed have about 3x the buying power. Of course for things like computers you ironically had about 1/3 the buying power.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by g8oz on Monday July 29, 2013 @09:01AM (#6120753)
Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) is a better measure
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by sundae79 on Monday July 29, 2013 @02:59PM (#6123105)
Yen is the equivalent of cents, not dollars, thats why the confusion, yen doesnt have a concept of 100 cents=1 xxx. In Rupees case it is an equivalent of dollars, 100 paisas = 1 Rupee.

So in this case 60x is a reasonable assumption except not including the Purchasing Power Parity.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by harichinnan on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:00AM (#6121120)
if the same logic were true, cars would cost 1/60 of labor + reduced price on parts locally made + same price and import duty on imported parts. However cars typically cost twice in India.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by kamaal on Monday July 29, 2013 @01:03PM (#6122345)
Cars cost twice in India for a totally different reason. Its basically because of high import duty and not because they are expensive to make in India.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by mikeash on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:40AM (#6121747)
It's like measuring your penis in millimeters instead of inches to make it longer.

Zimbabwe is printing trillion-dollar bills, so everybody there must be rich....

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by auctiontheory on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:54PM (#6123808)
I got to hold one of these Zimbabwean bills the other day. One hundred trillion dollars, IIRC. Pretty cool.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by mikeash on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:58PM (#6123826)
I hope you'll think of me when you're spending your new-found wealth.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by vacri on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:55PM (#6124139)
Is it Zimbabwe that prints expiry dates on their notes? I remember seeing one African banknote that did this.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by lostlogin on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @03:24AM (#6125740)
How did you get it? I'd like one too!
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by yannis on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @06:45AM (#6126178)
There are plenty of them on ebay.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by stonemetal on Monday July 29, 2013 @09:21AM (#6120876)
In Japan $1 = 100 yen Is the Yen equivalent to the dollar though?(are there fractional yen cents and that kind of thing) I guess since the exchange rate has been around that for as long as I have been alive, I have always thought of it as 1 Yen = 1 penny.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by acchow on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:45AM (#6121787)
> In Japan $1 = 100 yen Is the Yen equivalent to the dollar though?(are there fractional yen cents and that kind of thing)

Why is this relevant?

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by stonemetal on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @12:47AM (#6125419)
It isn't, it is just that when the exchange rate comes up it is always expressed as yen vs dollars when it seems yen vs pennies seems more appropriate, same order of magnitude and what not.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by barking on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:09AM (#6120036)
In agricultural terminology you can either pay people 'by the day' or pay them 'by the hundred yards'.

I have worked in both types of systems and can see merits and pitfalls in both.

In the former system there can woeful output whilst in the latter there can be woeful quality.

Neither of these are inevitable.

In a salary system, if the lazy/incompetent can 'get away with it' and the industrious/competent aren't acknowledged it has a poisonous effect on the organisation.

In a fee per item system the lazy will earn less automatically but there needs to be careful monitoring of the quality of the output with particular attention paid to people at either tail of the output distribution. Also people with high output (because of poor quality) can drive down wages for everyone and create a treadmill where the quality of everyones' work suffers as they try to maintain their income.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by stephencanon on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:52AM (#6120107)
Those aren't the only two options. If you want to incentivize outcomes and efficiency, fee-for-outcome is an obvious option.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by DougWebb on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:22AM (#6120563)
When it comes to medical care, you have to be really careful about how you define "outcome" if you want to use that as an incentive. You can't just use patient recovery/survival, because then you'd have doctors avoiding patients that need their care the most. You'd also continue to get extraordinary measures taken to extend the life of patients that can't survive, even when letting them go is the more humane thing to do to ease their suffering.

I've thought about this a lot, and I don't think there is any objective way to provide outcome-based incentives. The best I could think of is peer-reviewed judgements of outcomes, but that could become pretty corrupt.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by stephencanon on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:33AM (#6120602)
For rare conditions and the very sick, there are a lot of thorny issues, and fee-for-outcome may be hard to implement well. However, those don’t represent the bulk of medical procedures; the vast majority of what’s done in a hospital is utterly routine and predictable, and the outcomes are most definitely quantifiable.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by jdmichal on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:25AM (#6121262)
But, in those routine cases, fee-per-service-rendered is pretty much exactly the same as fee-per-outcome, no? I mean, barring malpractice, which already has its own (litigious) path of remediation.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by stephencanon on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:41AM (#6121355)
It brings the financial incentives inline with what everyone says the goal is. Fee-for-service incentivizes volume, even if it comes with the consequence of worse outcomes; we simply depend on doctor’s morals to not push it too far, with malpractice and licensing handling truly outrageous abuses. Fee-for-outcome explicitly incentivizes better quality control in a much more fine-grained manner.

More on point, fee-for-service incentivizes unnecessary and expensive diagnostic tests. Let’s say a patient presents with an uncomplicated broken arm. If there’s a set payment for an outcome (successful treatment of the break, with fully restored function), and diagnostic and treatments costs come out of that fee, the incentive is to order as many x-rays as are necessary to successfully treat the injury and no more. In fee-for-service, the orthopedist has no incentive not to order superfluous imaging because it doesn’t cost her anything, and may have incentive to order extra imaging (if, say, she also owns the imaging center that bills for it).

Medicine is littered with examples where there are two tests whose diagnostic power is statistically equivalent, and yet doctors common write for the more expensive test. Fee-for-service is either a neutral or perverse incentive in these cases. Fee-for-outcome aligns the incentive with what society seems to want (lower-cost healthcare with good outcomes).

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by jdmichal on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:42PM (#6124080)
I fail to see how fee-for-outcome helps any of this. They would still be free to order the more expensive test, and it would even encourage more testing. If they run the wrong test and miss the diagnosis, then they don't get paid at all...
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by stephencanon on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:45PM (#6124804)
The doctor/hospital gets a flat fee for the outcome regardless of how they achieve it. Unnecessary procedures and tests come out of their bottom line.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by amerika_blog on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:23AM (#6120334)
> If you want to incentivize outcomes and efficiency, fee-for-outcome is and obvious option.

When I write a contract, there are often two prices: a minimum which is stingy and a bonus which is far from it.

The point is to say that if you do the minimum for this contract, you get a certain amount; if you excel, you get paid for that excellence.

Translated to health care, I think I'd like to see doctors doing less paperwork and more doctoring. It's not perfect, but I trust competition to pay that excellence price to those who deserve it.

That in turn means that if I need some kind of crucial care, I know where it can be found. If the system is over-regulated, that is not so.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by whatusername on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:07AM (#6120138)
I know - anecdote!=data. But here's an anecdote:

We recently had a baby (in Aus). Our Indian neighbour (been in au for 7 years) was amazed at how little medical intervention we had. His comment was that in India there was much more incentive to recommend drugs, c-sections, etc.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by lostlogin on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @03:26AM (#6125743)
Anecdata is the term I've heard for this situation.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by realrocker on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:46AM (#6120094)
I am in Bangalore and don't have medical insurance. Paid Rs 300 fee to General Physician for a consultation another 1500 Rs. for a bunch of tests. In my hometown in Bihar the same thing costs Rs 150+500 with excellent doctors. It's not all rosy but it's not that bad.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by kamaal on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:24AM (#6120341)
The only thing I can tell you is to go and get health insurance ASAP. Both for yourself and your dependents.

Get one and be safe, one serious illness can bankrupt you these days(actually it always has). But my point is even a week of hospitalization can be pretty expensive. And don't be under an impression you will be able to travel to Bihar or wherever when the need arises. During cases of emergency those are not practical solutions.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by rehack on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:20AM (#6121617)
>The only thing I can tell you is to go and get health insurance ASAP. Both for yourself and your dependents.

I am not too sure about that. I think medical insurance hasn't yet become all pervasive in India, and thankfully so.

Insurance companies are there to make profit, and so will tend to exploit fear to maximize their profits. Leading to inflated costs, as it has happened in US.

So I am against insurance in this form, unless it works like a non-profit cooperative. In fact Dr. Devi Shetty has also innovated here, with a scheme which costs as little as Re. 5 per month (1/60 USD per month) and provides heart coverage to rural Indians. It works as a cooperative scheme of course.

I am surprised, Insurance companies, even exist. As they should be the first thing to be replaced by Software (as in 'Software eating the world' by Marc Andressen)... It should happen, will just take some time, I guess.

So, I think, India can still save itself from corporate medical insurance. As seen in some countries like Canada, a fully public health care system, works as good, if not better.

On a personal note, after having, earlier, taken medical insurance for me and family by paying some 9000/- Rs per annum and getting a cover of 300000/- Rs. I decided this year to not renew it.

But of course, I won't dare to prescribe it generally, each person must take his own decision.

Appendix: 1) http://arachnoid.com/wrong/index.html (ctrl-f 'Insurance is a wise investment')

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by realrocker on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:03PM (#6123854)
Well I have a few doctors in my family so I know the intricacies. There are several hospitals/clinics in India which still provide affordable care. No one in my family has a medical insurance. We have had a few health emergencies,in metros too, but the cost was always managed. We only have Life Insurances.It doesnt make sense to pay someone else a hefty insurance premium every year, which may or may not pay back, when the best insurance you can have is a family who shares. You get sick, I pay and vice-versa. I think instead of an inflated health insurance plan we can have a friends or family plan where you get together put some money and use it whenever a situation arises. Hey! I have a startup idea.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by onecomment20 on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:04PM (#6123143)
Umm, most policies have caps of Rs500k per year (or is it incident). Am I mistaken? That's laughably low even by Indian standards for a serious illness.

I'm assuming the the HN-India audience can hustle Rs500k. My two cents is that you shouldn't sweat it in India if you don't have health insurance.

However, if you get something like cancer in India, not insurance policy will help: the cost of treatment is just too high. You will go bankrupt.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by harichinnan on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:02AM (#6121133)
Agree. The last time I bought health insurance in India, it cost me Rs 2600 ~ $50 for a year for $10000 worth of coverage.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by realrocker on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:08PM (#6123888)
That cant be right/Probably has a thesis of prohibitive clauses where you dont get the monies
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by dheer01 on Monday July 29, 2013 @02:56PM (#6123084)
>>I've never been to US, but I can tell you the Indian health care system is if not less is equally greedy compared to their US counterparts. Its just the same.

Its NOT the same. High costs in the US are essentially a result of policy corruption - a systemic issue with results in the exorbitant prices. Greed amongst doctors is prevalent in India as well as the US - maybe more prevalent in India due to general poverty. But health care in India is more 'free-market' than in the US, which is why it is more efficient.

>>I've never been to US, but I can tell you the Indian health care system is if not less is equally greedy compared to their US counterparts. Its just the same.

I have been to the US and I have spent a huge time in India. I have witnessed the Indian health system in close quarters and have close family members undergone major surgeries. There is greed in India, no doubt about it. But the American system is completely EFFED up - there is no comparison. If you go to the US and spend some time understanding/experiencing the system, you will be thankful for what you have in India.

>>These days if you don't have health insurance you are more or less screwed. Its just like the US. I mean from whatever I've read about US so far its the very same. Nothing changes. You just feel its cheaper as $1 = 60 rupees. There you get a straight 60x value of your money. That is what it is at the end of the day.

You are completely wrong about this only because you don't know what happens in the US if you dont have insurance. My close family members have undergone major heart surgery at Narayanan Hrudyalaya. They had insurance, but even if the insurance did not cover it, it was not a big deal. I could have easily paid from my own pocket - it cost just over $2K USD - not a big amount for middle class Indians for life threatening surgery. All the prices are transparent - so if you dont want to pay as much you can choose cheaper options (shared post-op bedding etc.) which will reduce prices in half - with very little difference in medical care.

In the US if you dont have insurance for something like this - you will go bankrupt. The only reason you don't know about this is because most of your NRI friends work for bigger tech companies which provide good coverage.

Infact one of the reasons why health care is reasonable in India is because insurance coverage is limited and not mandated by law. The resulting free market delivers the economies quoted in this article.

>>Coming to our system. Forget greed, fraud in the system is so massively high nothing that I write here will explain it.

No it is NOT. There is a tendency in Indians to think that they are completely fucked up. Travel around the world - especially to the US and you will thank your stars - and please dont go with what NRI's say - they have a vested interest.

It is true that there is greed in the system and there is fraud - but there is a relatively freer market. You can 'choose' your doctors/hospitals. If you dont have a good experience with a hospital you can choose to write a review on Mouthshut.com and have them get less business. You can do your research and choose a better doctor/hospital over a worse one. This 'choice' and the enabling free market makes India health care deliver economies at scale which are impossible in the American system.

>>The fees for completing your medical course is astronomically high. Capitation fee often runs in crores, the net fee by the time you finish your MD is so high no doubt most doctors have to practically turn into crooks to get something out of it. Add to this nearly more than a decade of studies sets a perfect stage for these sort of activities to happen.

Assuming that this does turn them into 'crooks', they have an easy way to get their money 'out' - migrate to the US/UK after completing their residency. Some doctors are greedy, some are good. The greedy ones land up outside India as much if not less than inside.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by kamaal on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:13PM (#6125203)
>>I could have easily paid from my own pocket - it cost just over $2K USD - not a big amount for middle class Indians for life threatening surgery.

You could have, sure easily! Besides a person who has traveled to US doesn't fall under middle class category anymore. Sorry you don't. In a country where kids die of hunger and where parts of the country manage to barely eat two rotis a day with salt- traveling and working in the US is a rich man's luxury.

Sorry to be putting it this bluntly, but in India anybody apart from Mukesh Ambani thinks he belongs to the middle class.

Most people(The middle class- People who make around 10/15K rupees a month) can't pay for expensive medical treatments, medication, post-op follow ups etc and that's a fact.

>> If you dont have a good experience with a hospital you can choose to write a review on Mouthshut.com and have them get less business.

Yeah right. I find it hilarious when techies offer solutions like these to common people who don't even know how to turn on a computer.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by dheer01 on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @04:35AM (#6125887)
My cook makes 15K per month. Life threatening procedures are relatively rare. Incase he has to go through a similar surgery he can go for a 'package' which will cost him 50K. There are no 'noticeable' differences between the health care that he will get to what my family member got. He can afford 50K for something as rare and life threatening like this.

Mouthshut.com was just an example to demonstrate what it means to have a free market. My cook obviously can't access it - but he will ask me and his relatives on which doctor/hospital is good/cheap. He faces greater infomation assymetry - but the fundamental advantages of a free'r market still accrue.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by symr on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @12:06AM (#6125331)
I agree. A large portion of the population barely makes between 5-15k per month that is not sufficient for 3 meals a day + housing + school education. Forget surgery, they can't afford routine doctor consultation, diagnostic tests and medication. And yes, diagnostic tests are almost always done whether needed or not.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by krisgenre on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @07:02AM (#6126214)
You can't choose your doctors/hospitals in the U.S.?
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by monksy on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @02:38AM (#6125635)
The TV show Scam City had a field day with the Indian "doctors"

http://natgeotv.com/za/scam-city/videos/delhi-doctor-scam

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by losvedir on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:10AM (#6120516)
> The first supposed fact thrown around in the medical costs argument like this is, "Well in India their cost of living is lower, so they charge considerably less, yadda yadda..." but it's obvious the price difference goes way beyond any cost of living gap. That's over $100,000 in price difference, while it is true the cost of living (salary, prices of every day items) in India is considerably less than that of the US, the gap certainly isn't 100k+

Well, the article says 2/3 of people live on $2/day, implying this surgery is $1600/$2/day = 800 days worth of work.

Taking the US median income of $45k (since I don't know the 2/3 number off the top of my head), that implies the equivalent price in the US would be ($45k/365) * 800 = $98,630. So, right about the same as at the Cleveland Clinic.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by srinivasanv on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:10PM (#6124679)
The $2 figure quoted for Indian is not the middle 2/3, but the lowest 2/3, so it would have very little to do with the median. Let's go by the figures we actually have (mean):

Per-capita income in India is $1492 Per-capita income in the USA is $49,922

So, it's around 1583/1492 = 1.06 years of work in India. And, 106385/49922 = 2.13 years of work in the USA.

And since the hospital price is actually 95k Indian rupees, exchange-rate fluctuations do not matter.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by goggles99 on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @03:06AM (#6125694)
Here is what makes up the difference. In America, law mandates that hospitals treat anyone regardless of income, insurance possession or immigration status. Go to the hospital in India as an illegal alien and not only will you not get treatment, you will be jailed, then deported. Covering illegals and the uninsured is a HUGE cost that health care systems have to bear. Of course there are other things in America which drive up health costs, but treating illegals and chronically ill patients who have no insurance is the biggest. There are other major factors as well, but these laws alone bridge the gap in your calculations.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by devdas on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @06:50AM (#6126188)
Umm, no one ever asks you about insurance unless you claim to have it? There are no checks for illegal immigrants.

Chronically ill patients can still seek treatment, they may or may not be able to afford it though.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by seanmcdirmid on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:42AM (#6119807)
> A doctor trained in India is no less qualified than a doctor trained in the US.

In general?

http://blogs.worldbank.org/developmenttalk/shocking-facts-ab...

> It’s also pretty staggering that hiring qualified staff doesn’t appear to increase this probability. Das and colleagues suggest that part of the issue might be the variation in the quality of instruction in Indian medical training institutions. So there may be some institutions from which a qualification does make a difference. But given the paper’s results, the effect of such institutions must be rather small. The fact that providers working in better equipped facilities don’t have a higher probability of prescribing the right treatment is also alarming.

Obviously, heart surgery isn't rocket science, and our medical training is a bit overpriced, but is it so easy to compare two disjoint systems?

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by crntaylor on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:54AM (#6119839)
That article doesn't actually compare India to the US. In fact, it says that "It’s also likely the results aren’t India-specific." It would be interesting to see the results of a similar study carried out in the US or UK, for example.

In any case, there is a difference between the general level of competency of doctors in a given country, and the level of competency available to wealthy foreigners travelling to the country for medical tourism.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by mtgx on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:20AM (#6119908)
It's not India-specific. This is definitely happening in Eastern European countries, too, and probably even some of the western ones (although a bit more) - just like with college tuitions.

There's something seriously wrong with both the healthcare system and the education system in US if the prices are 20x+ more than in any other country.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by pisarzp on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:54AM (#6120111)
This is definitely happening in Eastern European countries, too, and probably even some of the western ones

Careful here. I live in London for several years now, and from my experience Eastern European doctors are much better qualified then Western European. I'm originally from Poland, and medical studies are really hard, and people spend whole 6 years cramming just to become an apprentice to the doctor (it's Bachelors and Masters degree combined). On the other hand in western countries you can do undergrad degree in anything and only then apply to med school.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by tripzilch on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:13AM (#6120296)
Same reason why many people in the Netherlands got their eyes lasered in Turkey. Both cheaper (including the flight) and better qualifications (if anything by experience).

This was a few years ago though, from what I've seen the costs for eye lasering here seem to be catching up a little.

Frankly I'm a bit surprised by all the people in this thread saying "well that's a huge price difference, but how do you know Indian doctors are as good as US doctors"--as good? On what basis is the default assumption that US doctors would be better and the Indian ones need to prove themselves? All I know of the US healthcare system is that it's ridiculously overpriced, but just like that $8 bowl of ramen (wat) someone mentioned upthread, doesn't mean it's better, it might even be worse.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by bjourne on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:34AM (#6120609)
Because everyone born in a capitalist society has been taught from day one that "the more expensive the better." Just as you would assume a $200k car is a really good one.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by aioprisan on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:45AM (#6120232)
If you do your bachelors in non-science field, you cannot get admitted without doing a post-baccalaureate, which can take 1-2 years additional. There are a lot of science requirements to even apply to medical school, that someone with a computer science degree, for instance, would not meet and would have to take those courses (i.e. biology, chemistry, biochemistry, organic chemistry etc.)
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by jdmichal on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:31AM (#6121305)
Well, to be fair, OP only said apply to medical school, not get in...
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by amerika_blog on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:24AM (#6120339)
> On the other hand in western countries you can do undergrad degree in anything and only then apply to med school.

This isn't quite right. If you want access to anything but a fly-by-night medical school, they're wanting hard science and most likely a focus in biology.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by arjie on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:51AM (#6119833)
For what it's worth, there's a huge range of private care in India. From expensive hospitals that cater primarily to the upper class to charlatans without a degree holed away in a slum.

The difference between these two ends is incredible. While I can imagine these results at the latter, I find them hard to believe at the former. I'm paywalled away from this for the next two weeks, so if you want the facts, that's where I'd look: what sort of private healthcare.

Edit: To illustrate, another commenter has a link to an news story that says mortality is lower after the Indian procedure - http://m.theaustralian.com.au/archive/business-old/the-henry...

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by bayesianhorse on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:55AM (#6119844)
I read about this clinic somewhere else, and there it was said this clinic actually outperforms western clinics in terms of complications, which seems to be achieved through staggering case numbers per doctor.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by Gatsky on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:18AM (#6120161)
It's completely meaningless to compare mortality rates. It's also not clear that if a patient had a CABG in India, went home and dropped dead within 30 days, that this data would actually be captured rigorously.

Anyway, you're drawing the wrong conclusion - it's astounding how close the US mortality rate is to the Indian, which attests to how good the US system is at operating successfully on more complex, elderly patients. Of course, you could argue that the US has optimised the wrong thing, at great expense...

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by DanBC on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:22AM (#6120173)
> Anyway, you're drawing the wrong conclusion - it's astounding how close the US mortality rate is to the Indian, which attests to how good the US system is at operating successfully on more complex, elderly patients. Of course, you could argue that the US has optimised the wrong thing, at great expense...

Is that connected to the extra funding that older people get?

What happens if we compare mortality in people under 65?

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by Gatsky on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:43AM (#6120227)
It's still going to be problematic. There is a hidden selection bias that you can't get around. Eg in India there are still a lot of people that can't afford the CABG no matter how much it costs. Are those people less or more likely to die after surgery than the people that do get operated on? The answer invariably would be yes.

Do centres that do more surgery have better outcomes? The answer to this is already a resounding yes. There isn't any doubt about that, it's been shown over and over again for multiple different surgeries within developed countries. Surgeons knows this, and so do health insurance companies. But of course this has to be asymptotic. Doing 1000000 CABGs doesn't make you 1000 times better than the surgeon that does 1000. So I doubt there is any real difference between the surgical skill in Shetty's centre and top institutions in the US. It's an untestable question in any case. The important point is that the care overall seems grossly non-inferior to the US, not that the US is inferior.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by seanmcdirmid on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:13AM (#6119882)
That makes sense: experience increases performance, which is why we have intensive residencies; there is a reason why until recently residents were working 80+ hours a week. Perhaps we should ship all our resident-ready medical students off to third world countries where the needs are great so they can become proficient very quickly. Perhaps our system has become too soft.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by stonemetal on Monday July 29, 2013 @09:50AM (#6121073)
Perhaps we should ship all our resident-ready medical students off to third world countries where the needs are great so they can become proficient very quickly. Perhaps our system has become too soft.

The problem is they would become proficient at treating the wrong things. Medical conditions vary greatly by geography. Polio is still alive in the third world, Russia is fighting drug resistant TB, and up thread there is a mention of a surgery performed at a 1000x rate in India compared to the US(Once a decade vs once a day). All the while what affects Americans would be glossed over because it doesn't infect the rest of the world at the same rates.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by stephencanon on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:15AM (#6120045)
Our residents do work 80+ hour weeks. Until recently, it was 100+ hours.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by aioprisan on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:47AM (#6120240)
It's still ~100 hours a week: 6 days at up to 16 hours = 96 hours/week.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by stephencanon on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:50AM (#6120431)
There’s a cumulative “in-hospital” time cap of 80 hours/week (88 for neurosurgical residents). In practice, however, this means that (a) the cap is regularly broken or (b) residents end up doing preparatory study, reading papers, doing research, etc outside of the hospital to remain under the cap. They are still working more or less the same hours.

Also, the 16 hour/day rule is only for interns, IIRC. Resident shifts can go up to 30(?) hours.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by gnufied on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:43AM (#6120229)
While the results of the studies are true in that study (that those fake patients were misdiagnosed), the assessment that why they were misdiagnosed is (may be?) not directly related to their competency.

As a Indian (who comes from relatively simple background), I don't need a study to tell me that general/govt. hospitals that provide PHC are overcrowded, lack necessary support staff, lack necessary equipment.

What the bloomberg article is talking about is, another class of hospitals and medical staff. Narayan Hridayala, Fortis etc employ pretty good doctors.

I doubt that, any general statement can be made about - "doctors trained in India are less qualified than US", because it depends on lot of factors.

EDIT: Added "may be?"

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by jmspring on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:29AM (#6119936)
If their doctors are trained like the bulk of their it professionals -- those hired by the body shops, no thanks. At least from what I've seen, countries that make a business iut of pudging grad numbers hoping for expat acceptance, quality is inversely proportional to quantity.

Within the US, the cost of heart surgery is highly variable, but if I were to go international, i would go south/central America over India any dry.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by teeboy on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:15AM (#6120044)
The Doctors and Engineers from the best institutes of India are comparable to the best in the world. You will regularly meet them in American or European hospitals anyways doing consulting. It's a poor comparison. Some of the hospitals in India are comparable to any top-class hospitals in the world. In the end, you will be visiting such a hospital in India, not small time ones.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by hsuresh on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:54AM (#6120005)
Such a crass generalization. If you think the bulk of India's IT professionals are bad - then you should at least consider if such poor skills are "good enough" for a vast majority of IT work.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by kamakazizuru on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:17AM (#6120155)
thats quite a narrow minded comparison. Theres a significant difference between bodyshopping IT employees because western companies want to save money on IT and consider it commodity, & training surgeons. Having lived in both India and South America - I found the quality of healthcare in India significantly better. You need to think a bit before making comparisons! Besides - learn how to spell ;)
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by ctdonath on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:29AM (#6121291)
I've had heart surgery, costing very close to that six-figure the article gives. Every dollar was well spent. Tearing my chest open with a car jack, rendering me dead for most practical purposes, replacing body parts with cyborg components meant to last for decades, bringing me back to life, repairing the extensive damage caused, continuous monitoring for anything that could go wrong for a week, and sending me home in perfect condition save for a narrow scar, a daily pill and ticking like Captain Hook's crocodile - that's a heckuva process to go thru, it went spectacularly well, and I'm alive in great shape, heck yeah it was worth half the price of my house. They brought me back from the dead, how much is that worth?
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by enraged_camel on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:54AM (#6121446)
You are succumbing to the common fallacy of associating cost with quality.

Last week, my dad (who is a doctor in Turkey) was telling me about a new study that compared the cost of healthcare services in various countries around the world and the satisfaction of patients. He said that the USA ranks close to the bottom of the index, meaning that considering how much American patients pay for healthcare, their level of satisfaction is incredibly low.

This is why "healthcare tourism" exists and is dominated by American patients.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by ctdonath on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:24AM (#6121652)
You are succumbing to the common fallacy of disassociating cost from quality.

Yes, a good successful job can be done much cheaper - but, on the whole, the odds of success & quality degrade fast when less is spent. When it is YOUR life on the line, you may very well be willing to pay significantly more for those diminishing returns; they may be diminishing, but they are in fact greater returns. "Healthcare tourism" by Americans includes the ability to identify & access those pockets of excellence; those areas in general may not enjoy such inexpensive quality as the norm, nor have easy access to excellent outliers.

BTW: Americans (I speak as one) are a chronically dissatisfied bunch. Having remarkable access to excellence in all things, we bitch & moan about how it isn't oh so slightly better. Yeah we complain about the cost of healthcare, and at the same time demand the absolute very best, quick to sue the pants off any doctor whose work fails perfection standards by any statistically normal degree when something could have been done better regardless of extreme cost. I suggest caring little about opinion polls where objective statistics are available.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by enraged_camel on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:57AM (#6121878)
>>When it is YOUR life on the line, you may very well be willing to pay significantly more for those diminishing returns; they may be diminishing, but they are in fact greater returns.

There is no evidence that this is the case. Note that the vast majority of the cost is due to the massive complexity of the system: every party involved - and there are many - wants their cut, and they don't necessarily contribute to the well-being of the patient or the efficiency of the process.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by cgore on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:05PM (#6123151)
You don't get payed for how smart you are or how hard you worked. You get paid for how big of a problem you fixed for somebody, and how much they are capable of paying you. That's why good doctors and lawyers get paid so well. Dying or going to jail are big problems, and people will spend a lot of their money to avoid them.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by GhotiFish on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:24AM (#6121654)
This is exactly what is wrong with health care in a free market.

if you had an operation with a 10% chance of failure for $5000, would you take it?

What if you could spend twice the money and cut your risk down to 5% if you quadrupled the expense? $20000, even I'd take that option for you, as an objective observer.

what if you could cut it down to 4% for $50000? Ok now it's getting a little silly, but it's still your life.

what if you could cut it down to 4.75% for $100000? Don't you deserve the best? I mean this is your LIFE. In anything else this would be a silly investment, but your life? You can't take chances. It's a bizzare choice, but really the only rational one in your situation, you have to survive.

So the thinking goes, we are incapable of negotiating for our own lives. To the point where it blinds us, by choosing that expense you doom the ones who can not afford it.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by maxharris on Monday July 29, 2013 @09:58PM (#6125004)
This is exactly what is wrong with health care in a free market.

What free market are you talking about? Medicare effectively controls the prices of medical procedures (since insurance companies reimburse non-Medicare recipients on the basis of tables the government puts out). It also controls the number of doctors (it does this by limiting the number of residency slots - see the Balanced Budget Act of 1997). The FDA regulates everything from the development and testing to packaging and marketing of drugs, medical devices and related products. Due to federal regulations, physicians are not permitted to discuss prices with one another. There are countless regulations that manipulate health insurance. And don't forget the 1943 IRS ruling that permanently established the link between health insurance and your employer.

And this is all stuff that's mostly decades before Obamacare. That just scratches the surface. For example, I didn't even mention HMOs, which were created under Nixon via another set of regulations intended to control costs for things Johnson had done.

A free market in health care? If there's one thing American health care has not had in the last 50 years, it's a free market. Sure, it has been slightly freer than in other countries, but that's not saying much.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by ctdonath on Monday July 29, 2013 @01:59PM (#6122733)
choosing that expense you doom the ones who can not afford it.

Do I?

Elsewhere in this thread is a post about a surgeon greatly improving the lives of those who cannot afford it by buying a used laparoscopic tool and creatively applying it. I've had laparoscopic surgery; thanks to the high price I & others pay, the laparoscopic instruments used may have replaced the very same one that Indian doctor is using. Far from "dooming the ones who cannot afford it", the system which regularly replaces top-end tools makes entirely acceptable equipment very affordable to regions which can't pay top-end prices.

Disallow me from paying an extra $50,000 to get that extra 0.75% survival odds, and the surgeon very well may not buy that next-generation laparoscopic tool and, as a consequence, sell the still-perfectly-good used one at low cost ... making it possible for another doctor to increase the survival rate for his patients by 5%.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by GhotiFish on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:16PM (#6123941)
Are you sure that the constant push to the top-end lowers average prices? If we spend all our time making lamborghinis, that means that the old lamborghinis will be cheaper thus cars more affordable? I doubt this strategy. Make more laproscopic tools. Rather than tell your economic inferiors to live off your scraps.

The healthcare market cannot chose to capture deadweight losses. People would view health care professionals treating rich and poor with different medical standards as an abomination. There is no Healthcare basic edition, Home basic, Home premium, Professional, Ultimate. If you raise the general cost of a heart surgery from $50K to $55K, and lower the mortatilty rate from 5% to 4.5%. Does the amount of people you save with that 0.5% worth the amount of people who can't make it to 55K, but could make it to 50K?

Are you sure these numbers are in your favor? Well, I mean, yes of course they're in your favor, I mean everyone, as a whole.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by ctdonath on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:43AM (#6121774)
This is exactly how economic reality works.

Yes, your very life is subject to the costs of diminishing returns. We can't guarantee everyone the very best because it costs too much, and we can't force people to spend less on their life than they can afford and choose to spend because it's not yours to distribute. Tough choices aren't easy.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by gvb on Monday July 29, 2013 @12:55PM (#6122272)
The problem is that people want 0% risk and have someone else pay the infinite price tag.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by auctiontheory on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:04PM (#6123864)
They brought me back from the dead, how much is that worth?

I'm glad you're well. How much would it be worth if you'd had to sell your house and/or declare bankruptcy, while knowing that similar-quality treatment was available for 1/20th the price in India and elsewhere?

Not just being snarky. Since leaving corporate America (and the healthcare plan) to start my own thing, I think about healthcare costs a lot. For starters, the lack of transparency or price-competitive marketplace, for such an expensive purchase, is mind-blowing.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by ctdonath on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:33PM (#6124043)
The For Sale sign would have been up before I went into the OR with nary a second thought. Worst case, negotiate arrangements for $50/day for the next 10 years.

Yes, health care costs a lot. Miracles are expensive.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by vacri on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:04PM (#6124185)
It's not a miracle. It's impressive, but you're mischaracterising it.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by petilon on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:45AM (#6120662)
"You don't see this kind of innovation in the American health system because it has been engineered with greed in mind right from the start."

Actually, it is not just the healthcare industry. All industries in capitalist societies are engineered with greed in mind, and that's OK. It works very well. The problem in the healthcare industry is not greed, but insurance. When someone else is paying for the care you don't care how much it costs. You don't shop around. This enables doctors and hospitals to charge more. American healthcare is very cost efficient where the care is not covered by insurance, for example plastic surgery, lasik etc.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by skylan_q on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:50AM (#6120684)
It's true, but none of this matters. People prefer equally terrible health care for all as opposed to great health care for some and excellent health care for others. Soon enough, plastic surgery will be socialized to combat bullying because kids shouldn't have to suffer for being ugly. Then we'll see that efficiency disappear in the name of egalitarianism.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by apalmer on Monday July 29, 2013 @01:44PM (#6122633)
I kinda get your point, but your analysis as far as capitalism/greed etc seems more ideological than logically rational. The problem as you state it isn't insurance, its the inelasticity of health insurance. Simply put a significant amount of people will pay as much as they can get their hands on for even a marginally improved outcome if their life is on the line. Conversely very few people will refuse life saving treatment based on price, IF they can somehow get their hands on the necessary money, even if they feel it is a 'rip off'.

Your stated areas where american healthcare is efficient are optional, cosmetic surgey, lasik etc...

Not to say insurance doesnt play a part, just saying you havent presented a solid logical arguement.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by blktiger on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:20PM (#6123250)
I think that the insurance companies are the real problem in the US. I pay the insurance company, who pays the doctor, who pays the insurance company. The costs go up in the opposite direction. Seems like a vicious cycle.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by sien on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:10PM (#6125029)
Good point.

It's also worth noting that healthcare costs in most of the developed world, while lower than the US system, continue to increase substantially.

However, what you are saying raises the question of how on earth a system can be constructed where people shop around for health care.

Any ideas?

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by danboarder on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:43AM (#6119813)
At face value this appears to be a huge opportunity for innovators to take on the whole existing healthcare industry here in the USA.

In reality I think many healthcare entrepreneurs either get caught in the existing framework (and dependent on it), or find the regulatory and other hurdles too hard here.

That said, I still think there is a LOT of room to improve cost efficiency here, and the right entrepreneur could do it. It's been done in other stagnant segments of the economy... I would like to see an Elon Musk-type entrepreneur open efficient hospitals here like this guy is doing in India.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by dantheman on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:58AM (#6119856)
A huge problem in the US is all sorts of really really bad laws. For instance to open a new hospital you have to get permission from other hospitals in the area.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by noonespecial on Monday July 29, 2013 @04:21AM (#6119909)
That's the opportunity. Eventually regulatory capture and corruption will become so great in the US that it really does become impossible to actually provide the care. Nothing will make it through the wall of parasites.

The opportunity is in helping Americans get real healthcare outside their borders. Take a glance Uber's way. You'll know you've got it right when there's serious talk about making it illegal to travel abroad to obtain medical care. For the safety of the people and the necessary good of the lowly American doctors, of course.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by dome82 on Thursday August 01, 2013 @02:53PM (#6142564)
I think that it is already forbidden in some countries to get specific medical treatments abroad. It is so wrong, and I would not be surprise if it is going to happen in U.S.A. too.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by yuhong on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:28AM (#6120184)
impossible?
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by amerika_blog on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:26AM (#6120348)
> For instance to open a new hospital you have to get permission from other hospitals in the area.

This sounds like a terrible law. Where can I look for more information on this?

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by vbuterin on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:06AM (#6120501)
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by amerika_blog on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @01:59PM (#6128745)
Thank you -- very interesting.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by Spooky23 on Monday July 29, 2013 @09:03AM (#6120763)
It sounds that way if you're a short-sighted conservative type or a hospital union rep, and makes sense until you realize that there is a glut of hospital beds in most places in the US. Care is shifting from institutions to outpatient environments, and has been for 40 years.

That excess capacity tends to be filled up with old and poor people on government health programs, and people needlessly hospitalized are likely to get more sick as a direct result of their unnecessary hospitalizations.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by Shivetya on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:46AM (#6120238)
regulations forced my doctor of thirty years into selling his business. Talking to him it pushed a lot of single and dual doctor offices into selling. Electronic records keeping was the bogeyman that pushed a few over the edge, between the software costs and the manpower to get all the documents into that now required form they just didn't have the money.

Top it off with his worst payers were not the insurance companies but government based.

Government regulation, from deciding what insurance must cover for all people to not being able to shop across state lines was very much responsible for the rapid increase in healthcare. It didn't help much when we got sold out by Washington under the guise of Affordable Care to the drug, insurance, and hospital, companies. ACA was payoff for campaign contributions, that is why no one read the damn bill.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by DigitalSea on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:37AM (#6120381)
I think someone like Elon Musk is capable of doing such a thing. But the complexities of the law around the medical industry definitely don't make it easy and even after you're up and running, infiltrating a lobbyist dominated niche is the next hurdle.

I'm not sure if you've heard the story but there is an American inventor by the name of Thomas Shaw. He invented the first safe, retractable syringe that was more reliable than any existing solution. Companies tried copying his design and managed only to produce sub-par copies, it's an interesting read. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2010/1007.blake.ht...

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by vasilipupkin on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:10AM (#6120519)
"A doctor trained in India is no less qualified than a doctor trained in the US"

Perhaps you are correct, but I doubt this assertion. U.S. graduate schools are generally the best in the world, I am not sure why that should be any different for medical schools

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by vbuterin on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:04AM (#6120490)
Another question: why don't Indian doctors just import themselves to the US and earn much higher wages and profits by offering American customers something like the average of the Indian and American price?

That's what we should be asking IMO.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by jacalata on Monday July 29, 2013 @03:50PM (#6123438)
Because they would have to get student status and undertake a two year residency, and then take the US medical board exams, and then come over on a H1B and work in a regular hospital (once they'd found one to sponsor them) and then get a greencard so they could work on their own and by then, maybe 10 years after they left India, they would probably be perfectly happy to continue living at the same wages instead of massively cutting their prices.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by deepGem on Monday July 29, 2013 @09:44AM (#6121041)
"I think when your medical system becomes so expensive it's cheaper for people to fly out of the country, pay for accommodation and even some spending money to get the same level of care" - I wonder why this not happened on a large scale yet. It seems so simple - fly out stay for 10 days and get the surgery done, visit some exotic places such as the Taj Mahal and come back. Almost heart surgeries are planned, so planning is also not a concern. These days booking a flight in and out is a non-issue as is the issue of staying in a hotel. What's stopping people from adopting this on a large scale ?
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by jjoonathan on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:42AM (#6121359)
Either it's illegal (the government's fault) or hospitals deal with insurers on a bundle basis and they aren't willing to cut out their most profitable procedures (the market's fault). Depends on who you ask, I'm sure :)

Liability might be a problem, but it only accounts for 2% of medical expenditures in the US, so I wouldn't expect it to be insurmountably difficult to insure the procedures to "US standards."

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by apalmer on Monday July 29, 2013 @01:53PM (#6122687)
This is being done on a large scale, health tourism is a real thing. I think probably you dont realize how widespread this phenomenon is, and conversely I think more than a 'large scale' you are really asking, why isn't virtually everyone doing this?
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by andrewparker on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:33AM (#6120200)
>> A doctor trained in India is no less qualified than a doctor trained in the US.

This might be objectively true (which you could reasonably determine through some combination of standardize testing and surgery complications/outcomes), but if you ask 100 people on the street in US whether they would prefer to see a US MD or an Indian MD for their heart surgery, I bet 97 or higher would prefer the US MD. The tiny remainder would probably show no preference.

Their is a brand power of a US medical education, which is especially strong for US patients.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by pessimizer on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:52AM (#6120257)
I think it's probably just racism. I bet you'd see similar outcomes if you let people choose between white doctors and Indian-American doctors, even if the white doctor was the foreign one.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by apalmer on Monday July 29, 2013 @01:58PM (#6122727)
Naw, not true, at least on the east coast indian doctors (with american MDs) are common and are not generally viewed as 'inferior' in any way to caucasian doctors.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by pessimizer on Monday July 29, 2013 @02:19PM (#6122856)
There are so many Indian doctors that it's almost become a stereotype of Indians. I'm just saying that given a choice, the white doctor gets chosen, rather than the US-educated one.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by rdouble on Monday July 29, 2013 @01:59PM (#6122734)
In rural america often times the only doctors are Indian or Pakistani.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by tripzilch on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:23AM (#6120333)
I agree but not sure if it's quite racism, more like prejudice. If it were a relatively poor or say (ex-) communist country with white doctors they'd be wary too.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by solistice on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:43PM (#6124347)
Just to put it here, you can get these price differences between US hospitals as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/hospital-prices-cos... in that Article, there's also a link to the Database of Medical Provider Charge data. https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Sta...
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by jfoster on Monday July 29, 2013 @06:40AM (#6120221)
I can't defend the US cost entirely. It certainly seems exorbitant. That said, I think there are some things baked into the US cost that most patients probably want. A certain degree of post-operative care that maximizes comfort under the circumstances, for example. Possibly also factors that affect the success of the surgery. Heart surgery isn't necessarily over once they close you up. It's great that surgery is being made so much more accessible, of course, but these procedures are probably not comparable.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by msonawane on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:20AM (#6120051)
"Well in India their cost of living is lower"

I am not sure it is true anymore. If you compare cost of living in a good infrastructure or similar lifestyle you will find India is expensive. I am sure many will disagree but just go ahead and look at cost of decent housing in any Indian metro. We too have crap doctors in India like anywhere else, may be they don't sound too expensive when you go by USD conversion.

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by ams6110 on Monday July 29, 2013 @10:53AM (#6121438)
I would observe, that all of the "low cost" equipment and techniques that are being described here were developed by "greedy" corporations and hospitals in the USA (or possibly Europe). It's easier to be cheap when you don't have to fund any original R&D.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by hingisundhorsa on Monday July 29, 2013 @11:22AM (#6121641)
Strong statements need to be backed up with strong data. You said "all of the equipment and techniques". Did you not read the Gawande section? Seems like the techniques are new and weren't invented by us.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by smky80 on Monday July 29, 2013 @05:26AM (#6120063)
> so expensive it's cheaper for people to fly out of the country, pay for accommodation and even some spending money

... and even a few years of college tuition or a small mortgage ...

Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by bborud on Monday July 29, 2013 @08:26PM (#6124730)
As long as the majority of americans vote against their own self interest, nothing will change.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by iterative on Monday July 29, 2013 @07:28PM (#6124521)
Hmmm. Why do you think it is that the costs of products and services produced by certain industries, like medical care and higher education, tend to rise much faster than inflation, while costs in other industries, like say, technology, fall over time? Could it have something to do with the fact that the industries where costs are increasing are those most heavily regulated and subsidized by multiple layers of government, while those where costs are falling (and quality is rising) are those that are least regulated and subsidized? Perish the thought! Much easier to just scream "greed!!!" and feel a bit morally superior than to actually try to understand what the problem is.
Re:Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S. by goggles99 on Tuesday July 30, 2013 @04:14AM (#6125842)
Let me fill in the gaps for you.

First off, this article is comparing the cheapest clinic in India, with the most expensive and most revered Heart center (Cleveland Clinic) in the world. NH is basically like getting your heart surgery done at a non air conditioned WalMart. There are no patient rooms. There is a patient room. A giant room with beds lined up civil war style. The food is akin to gruel, ETC... Of course there is going to be a significant cost difference. This is like comparing staying at a Hostile and getting dinner in the soup line with Staying a night at the Hilton and ordering a New York steak dinner for room service, of course there is going to be a significant cost difference. Leave it to a reporter to compare the cheapest abroad to the most expensive here (a bit of stretching to make the store line a bit more catchy).

Second, the reported cost is false. "NH maintains its costs low, savings that are then transferred to the patient. NH's cost of open heart surgery is USD $2,000. The hospital charges $2,400 to the patient, compared to $5,500 charged at an average private hospital in India." http://healthmarketinnovations.org/program/narayana-hrudayal...

Third, the per capita income in India is $1,000 nominal dollars, in the U.S., it's $50,000.

So the average adjusted open heart surgery in India is actually $275,000 when converting to USD and comparing using the average per capita income. (Narayana Hrudayalaya's "discounted hospitals" only charge $120,000)

I know that the average income does not fairly reflect the true cost differential because India has a disproportionately large population of people living in abject poverty. It does make the cost difference margin quite a bit less though.

If you are wondering just how places in countries like this can operate more cheaply though? I will tell you. US laws. In America the law states that hospitals have to care for anyone even non citizens. It also puts stringent regulations on hospitals. Regulations that do not exist in India. These Regulations are very expensive to comply with.

Narayana Hrudayalaya's establishments are not hospitals, they are not for emergency care. They do not treat non-paying clientele. In America, our medical costs balloon out of control for many reasons, one of the larger ones being the care of non-paying patients. Emergency rooms and therefore hospitals cannot turn away patients for any reason. They must admit illegals and uninsured (even for long term care). They cannot recoup money from these individuals so the paying customers get to flip the bill so the hospital can remain in business.

Just try going to an emergency room in India as an illegal alien. You will be promptly jailed and deported. Try going without insurance or means of payment... Good luck with that (same MO as all these countries where these "cheap procedures" can be had)

There are some countries where these procedures are still cheaper than in the US and they cannot legally turn away illegals and uninsured. They have a slightly different formula. The government flips the bill (subsidizes the hospitals) thus allowing them to compete cheaply (which keeps the costs low).