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Re:Practical Typography by pron on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:11AM (#6095144)
A very interesting read.

I've always been interested in fonts, but I have a question regarding their price. Why are they so expensive? I don't know how long it takes to design a good font, but is it longer than writing a good smartphone app? Font pricing feels outdated. It feels from an era when publishing was done by large companies.

If I could buy an excellent font for $10-$20 I would literally buy dozens. But font designers are making their work a serious expense, making me ask myself "is it worth it?" In most cases, the answer is no.

Re:Practical Typography by ics on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:34AM (#6095203)
One thing is that traditionally users don't buy fonts. In the past, the only people you expected to get any money from were people who got paid to set the type. You might spend months to years working on a single typeface and in that time a considerable amount of work had to be done to market it (done usually by the foundry you were working with), because after that much time a real flop might mean the end. Over the last few decades the barriers for creating and distributing type have definitely shrunk significantly, but there's still an issue over how type should be licensed and exactly what it needs to compensate for. Many typefaces are created by people who are otherwise employed as graphic designers or illustrators, while the individuals who are solely type designers have to contend for their living with type only in what is now a sea of free or corporate subsidized fonts (i.e. what came on your system).

---

If what I just typed makes no sense at all, I blame either my insomnia or the ambien which I refuse to take for it.

Re:Practical Typography by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @09:22AM (#6096003)
This is, I think, the real reason: if you're going to make a living selling fonts, you're going to be selling them to agencies and publications. There aren't enough of those to make a living if your fonts cost $5 a piece. There are a lot of things priced this way.

Obviously, the other issue is that a publication will pay a gigantic amount of money for a typeface, but HN readers will only reluctantly spend $21. Rather than trying to bridge the gap, it makes sense to sell to the party that values your work the most. Again, this is a very common and sensible pricing dynamic.

Operators of $5/yr SAAS services take heed!

Re:Practical Typography by pron on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @09:34AM (#6096063)
In that case, they should have "blog only" licenses, or "small-website only", or "small business documents only".

People buy lots of stupid stuff. If they buy hats that their characters can wear in a computer game, they will probably buy fonts, too.

Re:Practical Typography by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @09:37AM (#6096074)
Sure, but you're going to have to give them some time, because they're only just now figuring out how to license web fonts in such a way that they're tied to sites or pageviews instead of granting blanket permission to use the fonts for websites, magazines, and investor reports.

In the meantime, you're not where their bread is buttered yet, so the urgency isn't there.

Re:Practical Typography by krrrh on Thursday July 25, 2013 @02:05AM (#6101153)
see typekit.com for an example of blog or small-website only pricing
Re:Practical Typography by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @09:25AM (#6096016)
If you would buy dozens of fonts at $10, you'll buy 2 fonts at their current price. Pick a serif and a sans, preferably that harmonize. Wear them like your one good suit, and ignore the rest of the fonts. Be happy you had such an amazing selection to work from, and that whittling all of typography down to those two means your chosen fonts are all the more personal.

I can't imagine a reason why you'd want dozens of fonts, any more than I could understand wanting dozens of pairs of dress shoes.

Re:Practical Typography by resu_nimda on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @10:09AM (#6096244)
Why should a font be treated like a suit? Why not a car, or a house, or another infinitely reproducible digital good? I don't see why you chose that analogy except to set the price expectation at a certain level.
Re:Practical Typography by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @10:12AM (#6096261)
Both fonts and suits are about fashion, and not simply the marginal cost of the goods that go into their production. Clothing fashions could also be made drastically cheaper were it not unlawful to counterfeit them.

Moreover, like an expensive suit (note: I don't own one of those), there is little intrinsic utility in a premium font; it's practically the definition of a digital luxury. It can thus be priced as a Veblen good --- which it in effect is, to its real market (publications, agencies).

Re:Practical Typography by scott_s on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @11:07AM (#6096594)
Fashion can be copied, as far as I understand it. Planet Money did an entire show on it, "Stealing Our Way to a T-Shirt": http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/01/26/130838159/the-tues...

And they link to a law paper, "The Piracy Paradox: Innovation and Intellectual Property in Fashion Design" (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=878401) by Kal Raustiala and Christopher Jon Sprigman that says: "Yet a significant empirical anomaly exists: the global fashion industry, which produces a huge variety of creative goods without strong IP protection. Copying is rampant as the orthodox account would predict."

Perhaps what you mean is that you can't claim that a knock-off is from one of the big names in fashion? Because it looks like people copy the designs frequently. Fashion, however, is partly about status, and people attribute status to brands. So even though if a design is similar, people may not value it as high simply because it doesn't have the "right" brand on it.

Re:Practical Typography by aidenn0 on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @02:18PM (#6098012)
Re:Practical Typography by jrochkind1 on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:11PM (#6099108)
Moreover, like an expensive suit (note: I don't own one of those), there is little intrinsic utility in a premium font

I actually agree with your point about "okay, so buy two good fonts instead of dozens of crappy ones' -- but I disagree there is little intrinsic utility in a high-quality 'premium' font.

A better font will make the work that uses it more readable and intelligible. It adds _utility_, not just beauty, to the text that uses it.

Re:Practical Typography by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @07:20PM (#6099835)
I'm inclined to believe that because I am a bit of a font nerd, but I don't think it's actually true that text is truly more readable for having spent $99 extra on a premium font for it.
Re:Practical Typography by jrochkind1 on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @08:55PM (#6100240)
Well, the first question is if a better font text more readable.

The next question is how you identify a better font, and if most $99 fonts are better than most free fonts or not. Certainly there are going to be some crappy $99 fonts, and perhaps a couple good free fonts, sure, the price isn't a guarantee.

Re:Practical Typography by rjvin on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @10:35AM (#6096389)
I don't know how true that is. There are a lot of things in expensive fonts that provide intrinsic quality: more character sets (greek and cryllic for example), openType features like conditional ligatures, more kerning pairs, extra weights, small caps, hinting, etc.
Re:Practical Typography by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @10:53AM (#6096496)
You're getting those character sets in a particular typeface. But there's no intrinsic reason for you to set type in FF Meta.
Re:Practical Typography by ctb_mg on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @11:42AM (#6096794)
I do not subscribe to the premise that fonts hold a greater value because they are about 'fashion' and are based on more than just their production value.

App store games, music, etc. are vastly cheaper and hold more than their explicit production value. They provide entertainment, and to an extent, even an artform.

Re:Practical Typography by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @12:24PM (#6097096)
Nobody is demanding that you value fonts in any way. Just don't buy them.
Re:Practical Typography by jrochkind1 on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:05PM (#6099083)
If you have dozen of cars or dozens of houses, I would think you are being just as excessive and profligate as tptacek thinks you would be with dozens of fonts. :)
Re:Practical Typography by pron on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @09:31AM (#6096048)
> I can't imagine a reason why you'd want dozens of fonts, any more than I could understand wanting dozens of pairs of dress shoes.

Because I like trying things on for size. And my mood changes. That's why I bought five different writing apps.

Re:Practical Typography by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @09:34AM (#6096061)
You can try fonts on the same way you can try suits on. And if you're the kind of person who needs to have dozens of high-quality suits, that's fine --- to each their own --- but I can't muster up too much sympathy about the expense.
Re:Practical Typography by justinreeves on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @08:20PM (#6100091)
>If you would buy dozens of fonts at $10, you'll buy 2 fonts at their current price.

Well, I most certainly wouldn't. Mostly because I wouldn't buy dozens of them all at once, but over a period of weeks/years.

Re:Practical Typography by msutherl on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:59PM (#6099392)
This is a nice way to look at it. Phrased differently, come up with a personal brand, buy what you need to make it happen, and stick to it. If it doesn't last more than a year, the brand was bad. Take the hit, re-brand, buy new fonts.

On the other hand, designers need to buy many different fonts since each client needs a unique brand – unless you're one of those designers that impresses your own brand on your clients.

Re:Practical Typography by tptacek on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @07:19PM (#6099834)
It's true that designers need lots of fonts, but designers also get paid to deploy those fonts, so the cost structure is different.
Re:Practical Typography by Chris_Newton on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @10:01AM (#6096206)
Why are they so expensive?

It’s a combination of the attention to detail that goes into a professional-quality font and the sheer scale of the work, which is multiple orders of magnitude greater than writing a good smartphone app.

I wrote about this once before if you’re interested in a deeper explanation:

http://www.reddit.com/r/graphic_design/comments/zaxs1/pick_y...

Re:Practical Typography by lifeformed on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @02:33PM (#6098132)
I spend years of soul-consuming work making a game, yet only charge $10 for it. Although I guess fonts are a bit different, because the end user (the reader) doesn't buy it, just the publisher (the writer). Perhaps I should view them more like game middleware - I would gladly pay $100 for a nice toolset.
Re:Practical Typography by ams6110 on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @03:06PM (#6098346)
Years? Exaggerate much? I'm not a game dev, but when I think about the projects that I've put literally years of effort into, they are far more complex than the typical <$10 app store game.
Re:Practical Typography by epaik on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:14PM (#6099121)
Many indie developers spend years developing their game,

yet charge ~10$.

Games can be incredibly complex, you're underestimating

the amount of effort it takes to write one. You're also

assuming that he's selling his game on a mobile app store,

which may not be case (there's Steam, Desura, and other

online portals).

Re:Practical Typography by lifeformed on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:29PM (#6099218)
Well, it wasn't an Appstore game, but rather a desktop one. It was also pretty high-tech under the hood, and the scope of the game was quite large. Also, we didn't really have any experience making games, and our team was tiny (2 coders, 2 asset makers).
Re:Practical Typography by pron on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @10:46AM (#6096449)
Read your post. Interesting. Do professional fonts, then, come in restricted versions with fewer options at a lower cost (just to differentiate between professional and amateur users)?
Re:Practical Typography by Chris_Newton on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @11:42AM (#6096796)
Do professional fonts, then, come in restricted versions with fewer options at a lower cost

Sometimes you do see that quite directly. A font might be available as a basic version, probably with enough characters to set text in a few common Western languages but few frills, and a “professional” version, which might have a much larger character set, more support for OpenType features, or other enhancements.

There are other ways that pricing scales as well. For example, professional-grade fonts are almost always presented as part of a family, with different variations of weight (often far more than just regular vs. bold), style (roman/italic/slanted) and perhaps other characteristics. Buying a single font (just one style/weight variant) is usually disproportionately expensive, so most people would buy a bundle. An entry-level bundle might contain just a couple of weights and plain vs. italic versions of them, and those four variations might be more than enough for a lot of users. On the other hand, professionals typesetting a book or magazine would almost certainly want a wider typographical palette, and would therefore buy a more comprehensive bundle with perhaps dozens of different variations within just one font family. The price-per-font for both bundles might be about the same, but that means the comprehensive set is many times more expensive in absolute terms.

Another common means of scaling is that, like software, computer fonts tend to be licensed per device. That means someone buying one copy to use for a personal project will pay far less than a company of 500 people that wants to install a font for their new corporate look on every employee’s PC.

There is also the possibility of exclusivity. Some professional-grade fonts start life as a commissioned work for the exclusive use of a specific client, again usually as part of a branding exercise. Of course those clients will pay a premium for that work, which is far beyond the budget of most of us. In many cases they will only pay for exclusivity for a limited time, and the font’s creators can then add that font to their public catalogue for others to buy.

As a final example, with the rise of fonts-as-a-service on the Web, we now commonly see licensing based on page views, so large sites with many visitors are paying significantly more to the hosting service (though almost certainly at a lower cost per individual page view). Given that a major web site will receive orders of magnitude more hits than a typical personal blog or small company, that can make a big difference in how much a font service brings in if their fonts are chosen for major sites. As far as I’ve seen, the fonts themselves tend to be identical in these cases, though.

Re:Practical Typography by jongold on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @07:26AM (#6095504)
For a good font—not some crap on DaFont—you're talking many, many thousands of hours. Often just one person's labour, often by eye. Software makes it a little bit easier, but you're still kerning every single possible character combination by eye, and you're still redrawing glyphs at every possible size to make sure they don't render like shit.

There are lots of dinosaurs in typography—Linotype etc—but the best studios are tiny. Some great links to great studios here: http://jessicahische.is/thinkingthoughts

Re:Practical Typography by grinich on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:39AM (#6095213)
Try to make one. You'll figure out why soon enough. ;) Like making a good piece of software, there are hundreds of subtleties in great typeface design that a reader never thinks about.

Jesting aside, there are a handful of large foundries who are still behind the times somewhat. They're used to dealing with only a few clients (design agencies usually) and certainly not the web. A few have thankfully started coming around, especially thanks to work by TypeKit/Adobe. For example, HF&J now has a surprisingly good webfont service.

But unless you're going for something really specific (Proxima Nova, Whitney, etc.) you can very likely find a great similar font that is already open and even CDN'd by Google. (Though their browser is lousy.) https://www.google.com/fonts/

Re:Practical Typography by mostafah on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:47AM (#6095226)
> I don't know how long it takes to design a good font, but is it longer than writing a good smartphone app?

No if you spend years on an app! Seriously, developing a good type, from the idea to the final font files, is massive undertaking and can’t be compared to developing software. (I’m an experienced software developer and also a not-so-experienced type designer.)

Re:Practical Typography by akandiah on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @06:37AM (#6095355)
Try Font Squirrel for free fonts: http://www.fontsquirrel.com/

They have a great collection.

Re:Practical Typography by typografy on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @10:35AM (#6096388)
Typeface creation requires extremely specialized and rare skills (that most people don't even consciously appreciate!) and take enormous amounts of subjective and detail-oriented work. Type designers take their work very seriously as well, true crafts-people.
Re:Practical Typography by ErikHuisman on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @06:14AM (#6095291)
Watch this video to better understand the pricing.. http://vimeo.com/15232514
Re:Practical Typography by michaelpinto on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @03:49PM (#6098632)
It can take a typeface designer over a year to build something decent, so if you're making a living at it you can't afford to sell a font for $10 unless it's a display face. Also if you really love typography you'll realize that some typefaces are better than others...
Re:Practical Typography by jwarren on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @06:13AM (#6095284)
I think it's appropriate for the audience. There isn't the same market for typefaces as there is for a smartphone app. Development of a high-quality typeface can take an extremely long time.
Re:Practical Typography by msutherl on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @06:02PM (#6099405)
The font pricing model is undergoing a major transformation currently. Just like software, everybody is moving to a subscription model. At least for the web.
Re:Practical Typography by dan1234 on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:22AM (#6095175)
I guess value depends on how many time you're going to use a given font. You'll pay once but could use the same few fonts across many projects.
Re:Practical Typography by zalew on Wednesday July 24, 2013 @05:42AM (#6095220)
the market for fonts aren't users but designers, and they transfer the cost onto their clients.