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Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by bennyg on Monday July 01, 2013 @02:06PM (#5972479)
No, it's a head transplant. The head is part of the body. There is nothing metaphysical about a head. That's not where the philosophical language problems come into play. The problems start when you talk about WHO the combinated person is.
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by nsxwolf on Monday July 01, 2013 @02:25PM (#5972608)
If you were diagnosed with brain cancer, would you be pleased if you were offered a head transplant as a cure?

No, you would not.

Now if you had terminal cancer spread all over your body, would you accept a body transplant as a treatment option?

It's a body transplant.

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by bennyg on Monday July 01, 2013 @07:51PM (#5974593)
What I'm saying is that the head is an element in the set of parts called the body. The head is a body part. It isn't separate from the body, it is intertwined with it. Identity isn't totally centered in the brain (at least from what we can tell so far).
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by akiselev on Monday July 01, 2013 @03:33PM (#5973033)
So you install a motherboard into a processor?
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by nsxwolf on Monday July 01, 2013 @04:19PM (#5973314)
If you feel your identity is as trivial and interchangeable as a computer's CPU, be my guest. I don't think you'll get the result you're looking for.
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by akiselev on Monday July 01, 2013 @05:27PM (#5973680)
You were arguing semantics, so was I.

We do now know nearly enough about the brain to understand what "identity" is for us to speculate on whether a brain transplant would mean losing part of it, let alone actually perform a successful brain transplant in a human.

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by Sharlin on Monday July 01, 2013 @05:57PM (#5973851)
http://lesswrong.com/lw/kj/no_one_knows_what_science_doesnt_...

I'm rather certain that we know enough about brains to confindently say that all the higher functions of the central nervous system quite definitely reside in the brain, and specifically in the neocortex, not in the spinal cord or anywhere else.

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by akiselev on Monday July 01, 2013 @08:42PM (#5974879)
There is a reason I said "identity" with the quotes, not higher functions. I have no doubt a well funded enough project can transplant a human brain into a different body and "weld" the nervous systems to restore basic cognitive and motor functions in the next few decades.

What I mean by identity is an understanding of how "you" as a person are formed by phenomena emerging from very complex biological system. For example, I have a very bad feeling in my stomach when I do something I am ashamed of. I'm 99% certain that the neurons in my stomach have little to do with this feeling and it's "all in my head," but we really know for certain how our brain chemistry, our mood, our reactions are shaped by the chemical and hormonal functions of the rest of the body? You are, afterall, combining two separate genetic lines, is there no possibility for a neural rejection like graft-versus-host?

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by nsxwolf on Monday July 01, 2013 @10:04PM (#5975291)
I will grant that transplants get us into weird territory. It was just in the last decade or so when the first larynx transplant was done did we learn that the recipient has his original voice restored and doesn't gain that of the donor's. The outcome was really in question at the time.

Perhaps the new body does feed back some changes into the brain, but overall we still have a cortex with the original memories, etc as a starting point.

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by akiselev on Tuesday July 02, 2013 @01:28AM (#5976009)
And weird territory is what humanity is all about :)

Do you have a link to the larynx transplant paper? That sounds fascinating. I was actually more thinking about very understood practical lines like I know my personality is drastically different (according to friends) on certain medications. With the role even common hormones like testosterone have and the various feedback loops that could come down to the genetics of body cell lines, I can't imagine a person's personality not changing, at least in a time/environment dependent way. Seasonal depressive disorders come to mind, as those seem to have partially somatic causes.

Another interesting question is to what degree does the body (i.e. muscle memory) assist or modify how memories are "pulled up" and processed? Perhaps there will be random unavoidable "corruptions" in the fusing process that result in the signals for stimuli changing (i.e. sensitivity to heat and cold is probably somatic) and the brain pulling up inappropriate emotions or responses?

Is it still your identity if chemical mismatches change your interpretation of your memories over the long term or are you now a hybrid that, due to the transplant, has the extreme fortune of experiencing life and even epistemology in an entirely different way?

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by pavel_lishin on Monday July 01, 2013 @02:49PM (#5972752)
I am my brain. That is most of what I am.

If my brain gets seated onto a new body, you could say that my head was transplanted onto the new body, but it would be inaccurate to say that I received a head transplant.

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by sp332 on Monday July 01, 2013 @03:18PM (#5972940)
That's a bold assumption. You don't really know how much of your personality is based on reactions from your gut (spleen, heart, etc).
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by jessriedel on Monday July 01, 2013 @03:36PM (#5973048)
People have had just about all major organs south of the brain replaced individually by either machines or biological transplants. (Can anyone identify one that hasn't?) And I don't think anyone's ever seriously claimed that such people have had their identity changed in any meaningful sense. Unless you have a very complicated hypothesis about multiple organs in the abdomen effecting personality in a weird redundant way--where losing one of them doesn't change your identity but loosing many does--the evidence is overwhelming that everything we think of as "identity" is in the brain.
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by sp332 on Monday July 01, 2013 @03:39PM (#5973066)
Of course various hormones change personality traits, and many of those are governed or heeded below the neck. Trivially, testosterone.
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by Someone on Monday July 01, 2013 @05:45PM (#5973790)
I think you underestimate the effect body changes can have on one's identity. "identity change due to trauma" will find you plenty to think about, for example http://www.centerforpos.org/Positive/POS-Research/Papers/Pap... "Matthew, a professional ‘cellist, damaged two tendons in his shoulder. […] he felt “a kind of total emptiness and utter exhaustion that really was literally sapping my will to live.” At the centre of this emptiness lay the question, “Who am I now?""

http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BI108/BI108_2003_Groups/Hand...: "In addition, assessments should be made of their body-image adaptation after amputation, impact of amputation on their identity and relationships"

http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/traumaeffects.htm...: "Survivors may have problems with identity when PTSD symptoms change important aspects of a person's life such as relationships or whether the person can do his or her work well."

http://www.nbmtlink.org/resources_support/spg/spg_appearance...: "Every time I look in the mirror, I see someone different than the person I knew during my life before transplant."

Is all of that in the brain? In some sense: yes, but bodily changes do change how you think about yourself, and that is one definition/aspect of 'personality' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity#Personal_conception_an...)

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by jessriedel on Monday July 01, 2013 @09:17PM (#5975037)
All of these effects are smaller and of the same type as you might get from life events (like PTSD, or divorce). But that doesn't mean that "you are your marriage" in anything like the same sense as "you are your brain".
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by pavel_lishin on Monday July 01, 2013 @10:35PM (#5975447)
I don't disagree, and I'm excited about these new developments - but continuity-of-consciousness would continue even if I had my bowel ripped out. This is not the case if I had my brain ripped out.

On the other hand, people with radical brain surgery still think they're the same person, putting aside cases like Phineas Gage.

On the gripping hand, even though transferring my brain and its shell to a different body will still maintain my memories, and continuation-of-consciousness and transferring everything neck-down won't, if the person with my guts-and-spleen acts more like me, and the person with my head on their shoulders acts more like the guy whose anus it's attached to acts more like them, perhaps it could be said that we really did switch, despite the memories.

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by rdouble on Monday July 01, 2013 @03:19PM (#5972954)
I dunno, try reading Machine Man by Max Barry. The protagonist would only partially agree.
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by jlgreco on Monday July 01, 2013 @02:54PM (#5972784)
If calling it a body transplant bothers you because you don't think the definition of body works with that, then call it a "torso and limb transplant" or something. "head transplant" is absurd.
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by danso on Monday July 01, 2013 @02:12PM (#5972523)
Right...but the head is sometimes considered to be the center of someone's identity...case in point, brain death is often considered to be the standard of actual death.

So if I find my head atop a different body...why shouldn't I label it as a body transplant? For those currently in cryogenic cranial freeze and who successfully are revived, would we not think of them as having new bodies, rather than the bodies having new heads?

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by benatkin on Monday July 01, 2013 @02:50PM (#5972764)
Because "head transplant" is more fun to say. It's a self-deprecating joke to say "I need a head transplant". https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20head...

It probably is incorrect, though, as a head transplant would mean that the head would be assuming the identity of the person carrying the body. While amusing it seems a lot to ask of the person with the head.

Edit: even more people say "I need a brain transplant" https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20brai...

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by Dylan16807 on Monday July 01, 2013 @03:07PM (#5972883)
What problems? If it's Frank's head then after the operation you still have Frank.

Worry about identity when someone invents a partial brain transplant or something crazy like that.

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by VladRussian2 on Monday July 01, 2013 @03:57PM (#5973185)
>If it's Frank's head then after the operation you still have Frank.

according to police database of fingerprints - not, according to DNA - depends of where it is sampled from and even after that - what would be a DNA say in saliva, blood?

Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by Dylan16807 on Monday July 01, 2013 @08:45PM (#5974893)
Can't you already screw up DNA testing with a marrow transplant? And fingerprints can change too.
Re:First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says ne... by MarcParadise on Monday July 01, 2013 @03:18PM (#5972943)
That depends. If you're grafting Frank's head onto Mr Stein's body, you get...

Well. Moving right along.