News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by mikelat on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @06:39PM (#5908901)
This page says it's disabled by software - not by hardware. So it really depends on how much you trust the software and the people making it. The software is closed source and the people making it also happened to be the first ones to sign onto PRISM.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by amalcon on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @07:17PM (#5909121)
The aftermarket part to disable the Kinect without breaking warranty is not very expensive:

http://www.amazon.com/Post--3-Inches-Canary-Yellow-12-Pads/d...

Though there are a number of reasons I don't like the Xbox One, the Kinect isn't one of them.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by mikelat on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @08:22PM (#5909388)
You could very well do that. You could also crack open the kinect as soon as you buy it and change it so you can disable it by a switch or something like that. Although permanent disconnection apparently isn't a good idea as saying "xbox on" will I hear be the only way you turn the device on.

Really though I think it'd be easier for them to just give customers the option not to plug it in, but my guess is that they're trying to make sure everyone uses the kinect that they ship with the console (its not necessarily being used for nefarious purposes), but with that being said I still don't trust Microsoft.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by jevinskie on Thursday June 20, 2013 @12:53AM (#5910243)
> "xbox on" will I hear be the only way you turn the device on.

Really? What about mute people? Microsoft can't be that accessibility-impaired!

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by mikelat on Thursday June 20, 2013 @12:37PM (#5913044)
I'm just telling you what I've read. I don't agree with it, but it's reasonable to assume they ship a kinect with every xbox one, they want people to use it and they probably aren't thinking of mute people.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by superkamiguru on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @07:27PM (#5909167)
There is still the mic part. Should we use bubblewrap instead?
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by Dylan16807 on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @08:57PM (#5909529)
You can disable the camera by turning it around. The microphone is the bigger issue.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by comex on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @09:05PM (#5909557)
You mean like the microphone found in almost every laptop, tablet, or phone?

I guess the difference with this microphone is that it's listening to you all the time by default, and that creeps some people out. But it's not sending your words over the network, and is not more likely to start doing so than any of the aforementioned devices (actually, much less, because of increased security); it's just pattern matching for the word "Xbox". Kind of like the initial worries over Gmail "reading your email" to target ads: I predict that this too will peter out once people start actually using the product, albeit perhaps never die completely.

(For the record, the fact that Gmail messages can also be read by law enforcement under some circumstances is both a serious issue and irrelevant to the analogy.)

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by Dylan16807 on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @09:45PM (#5909677)
I can install my own OS on laptop, tablet, or phone. Or remove the microphone without anything breaking.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by comex on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @09:53PM (#5909699)
It's extremely difficult to remove the microphone from any of those things.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by Dylan16807 on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @10:40PM (#5909835)
Oh, to be clear I mostly meant removing the mic on a laptop. And it's pretty easy to open a laptop, just takes some screwdrivers. Or you can take a pin and stab the microphone until it no longer functions. No extreme difficulty here.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by LaurelCrowned on Thursday June 20, 2013 @12:16AM (#5910106)
It's possible to have a software based microphone coded into whatever operating system. Speakers can also be used as a microphone. There is software out there that can record sound without any actual microphone.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by bashinator on Thursday June 20, 2013 @12:46AM (#5910210)
I would really like more details about this software.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by hobs on Thursday June 20, 2013 @01:09AM (#5910294)
http://beyerdynamicheadphones.danielcadams.com/how-to-use-ea...

Not any speaker, but you can use some headphones as microphones very easily.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by bashinator on Thursday June 20, 2013 @05:14PM (#5915025)
Oh, OK - I knew about that trick. I thought you were referring to the internal speakers on a laptop being usable as a covert audio recorder.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by Dylan16807 on Thursday June 20, 2013 @01:32AM (#5910364)
How many actually have sound cards sophisticated enough to feed the speakers into the ADC?
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by sliverstorm on Thursday June 20, 2013 @03:38AM (#5910740)
Shit, I thought OnStar has already been doing the "listening to you 24/7" thing for years now?
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by baddox on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @06:59PM (#5909009)
Well everything is about trust, right? The PS4 could have a completely hidden camera that always on, but most people trust that Sony wouldn't do that, or that if they did, someone would quickly find it.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by brigade on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @07:11PM (#5909089)
It's almost like iFixit doesn't exist.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by baddox on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @07:15PM (#5909113)
It's still trust though. We trust that iFixit or some other third party would discover and publicize the secret camera. A few of us might even do it ourselves, but most of us would just trust that someone else would.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by mikeash on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @07:30PM (#5909183)
Those are all extremely different levels of trust. It's useless to treat them as equivalent.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by baddox on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @08:12PM (#5909339)
I think the "software vs. hardware" disabling of the Kinect is very similar.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by Dylan16807 on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @08:53PM (#5909510)
Software vs. hardware means you trust Microsoft to never in the future decide to spy and to never make a coding mistake that could turn the equipment on when it's not supposed to be.

When it comes to teardowns you trust that multiple independent parties aren't all actively lying to you in concert.

I don't see how these are at all similar.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by mikeash on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @09:24PM (#5909607)
When somebody figures out how to leverage a buffer overflow exploit in order to create a camera or microphone where none exists, then the might be similar.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by mikelat on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @08:19PM (#5909364)
You are correct, but the amount of trust you have in products you buy and use is your personal choice. If you think that's what they're doing then you probably shouldn't buy sony products.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by kabdib on Thursday June 20, 2013 @12:56AM (#5910255)
Ex Kinect engineer here. I wrote a bunch of firmware in the original Kinect and a bunch of support stuff on the 360 console. I also did a lot of design on the new Kinect system before I left MS.

I won't reveal any secrets, but:

1) It should be very easy to determine if the Kinect is listening when it should not be, at least when the unit is off. So whatever MS claims the unit does should be verifiable.

2) I trust the Kinect team to do this right. They're dead serious about privacy issues.

You don't know me, so my trust in point #2 isn't necessarily transitive. But you should be able to look at signals and verify #1.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by nknighthb on Thursday June 20, 2013 @01:02AM (#5910269)
If they're that serious, why not do the obvious thing and provide a physical switch? Why make it dependent on code we all know is fallible?
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by kabdib on Thursday June 20, 2013 @09:37AM (#5911939)
Well, what does a switch do? How does a physical switch work? Phones -- the old ones -- have big honking mechanical switches, but you can still listen through the things, with a little engineering.

A switch that just twiddles a bit on an input line can be ignored by software.

A switch that controls power might be interesting. But then there's a cable from the camera to the console itself, which could carry some power, and might be used to run a microphone, or maybe the camera electronics, a little bit.

Really, your recourse is to unplug the camera. Or not have one.

Others have pointed out that there are microphones on laptops and tablets (that appear to be off, but who knows?), and many celebrated cases in which reverse-spyware has been used to recover stolen hardware.

This stuff is all around us now. There's no coordinated plan for NSA-like folks to glue it together, or light it up without us knowing, and I think this would be hard, at least for the time being, and doubly hard to do without someone noticing.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by nknighthb on Thursday June 20, 2013 @10:12AM (#5912146)
The "switch" in a telephone was never designed as a privacy mechanism, and the device itself necessarily requires a live connection to the telephone network at all times.

By contrast, there is no compelling reason the Kinect component(s) must be connected to the xbox when not in use.

I obviously don't know what sort of bus is being used internally, but if it were, for example, USB, then the mechanical switch could easily behave as the equivalent of removing a USB connector from a socket.

The laptop/microphone argument is a red herring. "Everybody else is doing it" is not a valid excuse for doing the wrong thing.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by kabdib on Thursday June 20, 2013 @07:49PM (#5915664)
My point is that putting trust in a switch is a surprisingly deep subject. For instance, it's hard (and expensive) to mechanically switch high speed USB while retaining the proper electrical characteristics needed by the transmission lines.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by nknighthb on Friday June 21, 2013 @01:12AM (#5916666)
That seems an extremely odd statement to make, but let's assume it's true: Then just make it an easily-accessible cable. Or leave it as an optional accessory, which is what everyone would have preferred in the first place.

Don't get stuck in the mode of thinking you must design the solution to fit arbitrary requirements already decided upon. Those requirements aren't merely the source of the problem, they are the problem, and they're causing Microsoft to deliberately put its customers at risk.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by taopao on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @06:51PM (#5908966)
Your computer and phone are big balls of blind faith in software/firmware.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by katbyte on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @06:59PM (#5909006)
My computer doesn't have a webcam or mic plugged in all the time pointed at my living room.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by scott_s on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @07:20PM (#5909131)
My computer has a webcam and microphone pointed at me whenever I'm using it. Same for many, many people.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by rjd on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @07:33PM (#5909188)
And unsurprisingly there are many accounts of this being abused already, heres a few high profile examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_... , http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/rat-breeders-meet...
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by scott_s on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @10:30PM (#5909802)
Indeed. But it happens rarely enough that its usefulness to video chat with friends outweighs the risks for me and many other people. Most people are already okay with a camera on a device that is constantly pointing at them.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by katbyte on Friday June 21, 2013 @04:23PM (#5920757)
I dare say most people are blissfully unaware of how often and how easy it is for someone to use their webcam to spy on them.

Either way thats not the point, I don't have a webcam or mic plugged in, except when i am using it for video chat or gaming, and afterwards i unplug them. The xbox's cannot be removed like my PCs.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by katbyte on Friday June 21, 2013 @04:20PM (#5920744)
But you have the option of unplugging the mic and camera, apparently that is not the case with the xbox.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by scott_s on Friday June 21, 2013 @05:15PM (#5921061)
I do not have that option with my Macbook, nor do I think people have such an option with most laptops that have an integrated camera and mic. I could physically cover the lens and mic, but you can do that with a Kinect, too.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by dominicgs on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @09:53PM (#5909701)
Many new smart TVs do, and they have already begun to be exploited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA_2AiaAkvk
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by Groxx on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @07:11PM (#5909085)
would you recognize one if it were on the motherboard? it's not like microphones are big.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by katbyte on Friday June 21, 2013 @04:24PM (#5920769)
no, but i've never heard of a motherboard having an internal mic. Is that a thing now?
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by Groxx on Sunday June 23, 2013 @03:26PM (#5929016)
Well, laptops. But we never heard of prism before now, which doesn't make it not a thing.

I'm completely building this into a paranoid delusion, but then this whole thread is a demonstration that we lack / are denied the knowledge to dispel paranoid delusions, and sometimes they're right.

Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by LaurelCrowned on Thursday June 20, 2013 @12:20AM (#5910113)
Your computer or phone doesn't need a conventional microphone to record sound. They could very easily be hidden in software, or by anything that can detect vibration. Not that I'm worried about a console doing this anyway.
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by katbyte on Friday June 21, 2013 @04:20PM (#5920737)
I'm pretty sure a computer with no mic is unable to record sound...
Re:Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One by m3mnoch on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @07:21PM (#5909133)
nah. you can totally disable it with hardware: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jpMACMgKo2A/UaaIiPp3IvI/AAAAAAAAAP...

m3mnoch.