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Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by credo on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @01:45PM (#5519735)
Detailed post, but it doesn't seem to address two things.

1. The WSJ report noted that Apple was concerned that " AppGratis was pushing a business model that appeared to favor developers with the financial means to pay for exposure." Simon hasn't addressed this point. Do they make paid recommendations ?

If they do make app-recommendations based on payments, it makes a lot of sense for Apple to ban them. As an iOS (and Android) developer, I personally think that paid-recommendations are bad for the ecosystem (though I'm sure that some giant shops paying for recommendations may disagree). At the least, I think users of AppGratis should be told if the recommendations are "paid for".

2. Simon's discussion of rule 5.6 doesn't really address the problem. Rule 5.6 says "Apps cannot use Push Notifications to send advertising, promotions, or direct marketing of any kind."

Simon counters by saying that they only send one notification per day and that users opt-in. However, neither claim refutes the fact that they''re violating rule 5.6. All iOS push-notifications are opt-in anyway. Rule 5.6 says 'no advertisement , no promotions,.... no direct marketing'. It doesn't make exceptions for apps that only send one notification per day. Now Simon could argue that Rule 5.6 is bad for the user and that push-notification-advertisements/promotions are good. That may be a debatable point. However, it is clear that his claims do nothing to counter the fact that AppGratis violates Rule 5.6 (as it is written)

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by espadagroup on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:01PM (#5519857)
Pay for exposure already exists within the app store. Large companies pay around $10-$20K a day depending on the category on crap ad networks (won't name them) that incentivize the users to download the companies app in order to "get to the next level" or something like that. The downloads are incredibly cheap and you get thousands and thousands of them. The app store ranking is almost entirely based on download velocity, so your ranking goes up. Once you get in the top 12ish the organic downloads start pouring in just from being near the top. The value per user of those organic users is so high that it more than off sets the cost for the crap/incentivized downloads. Almost everyone who can do this, does this.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by physcab on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:30PM (#5520062)
Just to nitpick a little. It's not that those organic users are so valuable that everyone who can promote does just to get them. It's that organic users + incentivized users lowers your eCPI and can make your app (usually a game) profitable. But you can totally be profitable with just incentivized users as well...you just need to make sure your retention and revenue per user are higher than your costs in acquiring them :)
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by derefr on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @02:48AM (#5523596)
> The app store ranking is almost entirely based on download velocity, so your ranking goes up.

I wonder how much the App Store's rankings would change if Apple only counted a download "impression" once the app had had, say, 10 minutes of (non-contiguous) runtime on your device? These perversely-incentivized game users would be filtered out of the metrics, but all the drive-by "download, look around, oh this app isn't what I wanted, delete" users would as well.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by unthunk on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:45AM (#5525428)
This wouldn't work well for all apps. For example, I went on a trip to the Rockies in November and wanted to check the elevation at the lodge I was staying at. I downloaded and ran elevation app to find out. Took only moments to find out and even with fiddling around the the app while hiking I probably spent no more than 5 minutes on it but it was completely useful for the purpose I had downloaded and used it for. Should limited use/one-time use apps not be counted simply because they weren't used for an arbitrary amount of time?
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by kevingibbon on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:33PM (#5520095)
Lets say you need 20k DLs to get top 5 in a notable category. Lets say you get another 20k of real DLs from the app store ranking. Incentivised DLs are $0.35 each, but they are Dls and not real users. So $7k for 20k DLs.

You usually want a LTV of 3:1. So your LTV would need to be $2.10 per user. These users are way worse than acquiring them from other channels because they only briefly see your logo and a brief description. Let's say they are only 25% as good. So now you need a regular LTV of $8.40. Very few apps have a LTV of over a dollar.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by gyardley on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @06:51PM (#5521985)
The "let's say they are only 25% as good" is a bad assumption. The real downloads you get from increased app store ranking are as good as any others you'll get.

The ratio - 20K real downloads from 20K incentivized, or 1:1 - is also a bad assumption. Here the actual ratio varies wildly, depending on how much the incentivized installs actually influence your app ranking. It's a feast or famine situation - spend too little, and your ratio will be closer to 1:10, since your ranking won't have moved enough to influence organic traffic. Spend sufficiently, and your ratio will be closer to 10:1, if not higher.

The LTV of 3:1 is also a bad assumption - I've worked with firms who would spend at breakeven all day long, often because they wanted to grow their user base into an acquisition or use it for future in-house cross-promotion. Many others are happy to make (say) $1.50 on $1.00 spend.

My experience agrees with the parent comment - anyone that has the budget to buy incentivized downloads does buy incentivized downloads, except for a small proportion of developers who strongly disagree with the practice. It simply works too well.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by kevingibbon on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @08:49PM (#5522509)
Obviously on a case by case basis. I've seen app downloads that come from rankings to be lower quality than those that come through other channels.

If you are trying to build a real business a 3:1 LTV is very reasonable.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by ableal on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @03:41PM (#5520687)
> You usually want a LTV of 3:1. So your LTV would need to be [...]

Lifetime value of a customer ? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifetime_value )

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by kevingibbon on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @05:20PM (#5521479)
yep.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by espadagroup on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @03:01PM (#5520346)
Plenty of apps do; retail and real estate, just to name a few.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by spontaneus on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:05PM (#5519889)
Facebook just recently started doing this as well. You can now pay to get your app promoted in people's news feed.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by kevingibbon on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:36PM (#5520127)
Completely different to AppGratis. Facebook allows you to target (based on gender, location, likes, workplace) and advertise your app. Users have no incentive to DL your app and actually have a need for your product.

I've had a lot of success on FB mobile install ads.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by hboon on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:40AM (#5524291)
Mind if I drop you an email regarding FB mobile install ads? Have been experimenting with it, but not much success. Want to pick up a few tips.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by potatolicious on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:28PM (#5520054)
This isn't quite the same thing. Facebook is letting people advertise apps on news feeds, they're not forcing downloads via a game mechanism.

What GP is talking about is the much sketchier model of blocking (or greatly slowing down) access to an app unless the user goes and downloads an affiliated app. This is artificial download inflation by bending the user over a barrel, not advertising.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by physcab on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:40PM (#5520163)
I don't think Apple will approve an app that blocks a user or slows them down unless they install a 3rd party app. What usually happens is an advert pops up during normal app usage, the user has to exit or let the ad go away, then they can continue using. It's a normal advertisement. Its not unlike when the NYTimes does a full site takeover for some Buick commercial and you have to minimize the ad before you can continue reading. But going out and buying a Buick certainly doesn't decrease your access time to NYTimes articles.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by nkorth on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @10:27PM (#5522868)
I've seen many games that let you "earn" ingame currency by downloading apps or completing surveys. A few of these games _indirectly_ require you to download the incentivized apps by providing very few coins in the actual game, or making the ads the only way to get coins (other than with real money). Apparently that's sneaky enough for Apple.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by zevyoura on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:39AM (#5523253)
How does this work? My understanding is that apps cannot see what other apps are installed on iOS unless the device has been jailbroken.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by fnayr on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @03:33AM (#5523723)
For iOS apps there's something called "custom url schemes," which is basically a string that every app is self-assigned (if at all) that can be used to open up the app from within another app (or check the app's existence).
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by Termana on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @02:20AM (#5523509)
I'm not sure if this is how the specific ones being talked about might be working, but a simplified way of doing it would be that when APP A is installed it connects to a server and tells it that it has been installed with UNIQUE DEVICE ID, that way APP B can connect to the server and see if APP A has been installed on UNIQUE DEVICE ID. You can imagine ways to do the same with viewing ads etc.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by potatolicious on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:55PM (#5528769)
This won't work - Apple no longer allows access to the unique device ID. You can generate your own random ID and register it with a server, of course, but this ID will not persist between apps.

More commonly this is done by IP tracking.

- Device taps on button/ad in app A to download app B.

- URL is specially encoded to identify app A.

- Server registers some unique information about the device.

- Server redirects to app B's app store page.

- User downloads app B.

- User launches app B, which reports back to Server. Server recognizes device and is able to associate this install event with the original tap from app A. App A's servers are contacted to this effect.

The trick here is that the uniqueness of the device here is pretty limited and temporary. If the user downloads app B, then does not launch it, their IP address will soon change (cellular networks and the such). It's not a foolproof system.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by pdpi on Thursday April 11, 2013 @04:40PM (#5534634)
Not exactly slowing you down if you don't get a 3rd party app but e.g. Draw Something will give you extra coins to watch ads for other apps.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by espadagroup on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:19PM (#5519985)
Yeah, though that's still controlled by Facebook, since you're actually paying them rather than some third party.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by tayome on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @07:26PM (#5522173)
Facebook's app value proposition is not to be an app store - it's a social networtk
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by jjellyy on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @11:29PM (#5523052)
If this is happening those ad networks should be banned. Incentivizing a user to download an app is against app stores TOS.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by lleims on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @01:59PM (#5519832)
I've heard from one investor in Spain who was recently pitched by an AppGratis competitor that, depending on the client, AppGratis might charge big companies between $12/14K a day to promote their apps.

Take it with a grain of salt as this information comes from one of their competitors. But I wouldn't be totally surprised if they charge that amount.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by muzzamike on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:04PM (#5519881)
They have even higher rates for free apps with in-app purchases.n. We were told $3 per install or $100k flat rate for 1 day. This was roughly a month and a half ago.

Unfortunately that didn't fit out budget.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by coderholic on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:20PM (#5519992)
Yeah I was also quoted a flat fee of $100k, around a couple of weeks ago.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by pgrote on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @01:55PM (#5519810)
Does 5.6 apply to all apps? Is it a black and white issue? For instance, the Southwest Airline app, Ding, sends me push notifications when there are sales.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by jasonjei on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @04:30PM (#5521115)
If the user consents to receiving special deals or time limited sale announcements, I don't see the harm. But Apple's TOS seems at best capricious and unevenly applied. I'd like to see them pull Southwest or another popular brand who offers announcements of sales. By that token, they might as well pull Twitter, Mail, and other apps, since they all have the potential for pushing advertisements of time limited sales.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by spontaneus on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:52PM (#5520265)
And, what about Groupon and Living Social? All they do is promote a different business every day... If Apple is going to make rules like this, they need to be consistant on how they enforce it.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by mbetter on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @08:47PM (#5522503)
Why do they need to be consistent?
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by spontaneus on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @10:08PM (#5522813)
For a lot of reasons. First, if I'm spending time creating an app, it would be nice to know with 100% certainty that it will be accepted in the app store. Second, it's unfair if competitors don't have to run by the same set of rules. Third, because it's extremely confusing and could turn developers off from creating on their platform.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by pgrote on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @08:56PM (#5522537)
That is a very good question. Their rules, their interpretation. I could see that line of thought.

I guess it would help me as a consumer from the standpoint of any confusion. I don't develop IOS apps, so I can't speak to the fairness of the process. I am an IOS user and it would irritate me if an app I like, such as Southwest's, is pulled all of the sudden for a rule that wasn't enforced consistently.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by ScottBurson on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @09:24PM (#5522658)
They are competing against Android for developers.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by ryanSrich on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:33PM (#5520098)
Yeah I'd like this answered. I have several apps that advertise through push notifications, EA is one of them.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by gojomo on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:02PM (#5519865)
Re (1): Well-disclosed paid-promotion should be fine: Apple does it (iAds), Google does it (AdWords). If that's the issue it should be fixable.

Re (2) If a notification that "today's [no-additional-cost] deal has arrived!" counts as "advertising, promotion, or direct marketing", then it seems every other push that aims to improve app usage, by announcing new content or features, would also be verboten. Is that what Apple is saying? If so, a lot of other apps are going to have to go...

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @03:40PM (#5520676)
That sounds exactly like direct advertising, promotion or direct marketing. Mentioning you have a new feature isn't any of those things. Advertising a daily offer? That's definitely one or all of them,
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by gojomo on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @05:27PM (#5521522)
When I get a notification via Google Plus app, driving me to their app because there's something that I've expressed interest in, is that "advertising, promotion, or direct marketing"? Or from a Facebook app? Or any game informing me it's my turn?

Yes, they drive app use, and perhaps even later revenues, but in a way that's in harmony with my intent when installing the app and expectations. It's like "you've got mail (that you requested)". You can squint and call it marketing, but then almost every notification that increases use of a profitable app is also marketing.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by idunno246 on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @04:41PM (#5521198)
Yes. From the developer agreement(which is more explicit than the submission guidelines), pretty much every app violates this:

2.2 You may not use the APN or Local Notifications for the purposes of advertising, product promotion, or direct marketing of any kind (e.g., up-selling, cross-selling, etc.), including, but not limited to, sending any messages to promote the use of Your Application or advertise the availability of new features or versions.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by gojomo on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @05:28PM (#5521531)
Thanks for that pointer. I'm surprise that highlighting new versions or existing features is prohibited. I've received quite a few such messages from major apps -- Zynga, Facebook, other leading games. Are they all being kicked out of the App Store?
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by idunno246 on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @07:10PM (#5522087)
I was once tasked almost word-for-word in violation of this(at a small company). I argued and quoted and the executive response was 'everyone else is doing it so we'll do it until we get caught'
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by krichman on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @11:46PM (#5523109)
Yep, just like uploading the entire contacts list. Everyone did it until they got caught.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by jicea on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @02:44PM (#5520212)
Hi, I'm one of the developer of Meon https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/meon/id400274934?mt=8 . We have been promoted twice by App Gratis, each time we've never paid anything. The App Gratis campaign generated more than 400K downloads and push us in the first place in the French App Store (for a few days). Of course App Gratis use iTunes affiliation to get revenues, but they didn't charge us for anything.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by daemon13 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @04:40AM (#5523904)
Re >> Of course App Gratis use iTunes affiliation to get revenues, but they didn't charge us for anything.

Can you please elaborate on this? Do you mean that Apply is paying some kind of affiliate fee? And what happens if the app is free of charge (FOC)?

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by jicea on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:21AM (#5525667)
I'm always surprised that iTunes affiliation is not very well known. It's in fact the base of a lot of business model: Apps Gratis, Free App the Day etc... Assuming you're sending a customer to the App Store from your app or your website, by any means (link to a free app, link to a paid app etc...), you're becoming an App Store affiliate and get a percentage of everything that buys this customer for 72 hours. I think this percentage is something like 5%...

Affiliation is not limited to Apple App Store, affiliation exists also on Amazon for instance, but not on Google Play, for the moment.

It's important to note that you can becomes affiliate even if your send a customer to the App Store with a free app (for instance Angry Birds Lite), and that at any time there is only one affiliate by device: that's why any apps recommendation will send you push notification each day to remain the current affiliate. And affiliation is not directly managed by Apple but by LinkShare for US, and TradeDoubler for Europe.

A last thing, doing affiliation is really easy:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/meon/id400274934?mt=8 => a link to my app without any affiliation

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/meon/id400274934?mt=8&par... => a link to my app with Linkshare identifier (partnerId=30) and my company identifier (siteID=pPE4bVE6DtE)

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by hboon on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:47AM (#5524314)
See http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/ as well as http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/resources/documentati...

iTunes affiliates get a cut of 5% of all purchases within 72 hours, not just for the originating app (or media).

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by simonholroyd on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:35AM (#5524680)
> For zero dollar sales of apps, you will not see any transactions reported.

Aren't most of the apps that AppGratis links to discounted to free for the day. Apple doesn't pay commission on free downloads, right?

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by hboon on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:43AM (#5524699)
They don't. But let's say you click and buy another app or IAP within that 72 hour window, the affiliate gets a cut.
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by 2pasc on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @05:45PM (#5521624)
Re: Rule 5.6. Aren't all commerce apps - especially Flash Sales apps violating Rule 5.6? I could get an app every day from Fab, Rue La La, Threadflip, Gilt, and others, and every week from Postmates, Instacart, etc...

Rule 5.6 seems crazy to me, unless I have misunderstood something. What are the apps that are using push notifications for other reasons than what Rule 5.6 prevents? Communications apps? If that's the case, then Urban Airship needs to pivot very fast, because their business is built on something forbidden!

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by therandomguy on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @01:55PM (#5519809)
I think Simon's point regarding #2 above is that the push notification is just letting the user know about an event ("deal is ready"). It is not pushing advertising or promotion. I wonder if it would be in violation of the rule if the app sent push notification stating, "It's noon. You know what to do!". Of course, this is not in the spirit of the rule...
Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by rurounijones on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @08:32PM (#5522452)
Even if everything you say above is true.

None of these rules are brand new and AppGratis had been approved by Apple staff time and time again and worked with the company when there were problems.

The fact a new person can come along and totally pull the rug out should highlight just how wildly inconsistent the approval system is.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by jjellyy on Tuesday April 09, 2013 @11:40PM (#5523094)
+1 AppGratis is in violation of the TOS and are rightfully upset, but I think they were banned for good reasons.

I care more about the health of the app store ecosystem than one company. They claim to promote great free apps but in reality is spamming all their users with paid promotions to the highest bidder.

Re:AppGratis pulled from the App Store. Here’s the full story by daemon13 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @04:38AM (#5523896)
Can you please elaborate on this? Do you mean that Apply is paying some kind of affiliate fee? And what happens if the app is free of charge (FOC)?

Edit: sorry, mixed the thread