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Re:Why are we still working this hard? by jpatten on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:27PM (#50458225)
I'm no economist but it seems like competition for housing drives up prices as wages increase. Also, more generally, people's happiness seems to be more correlated with their economic rank in a society, rather than their wealth in absolute terms [1]. So, people want to do better than their neighbors, not just do well.

1. Boyce, Brown & Moore (2010), “Money and Happiness: Rank of Income, Not Income, Affects Life Satisfaction”

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by tsunamifury on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:29PM (#50458249)
Therefore as people of the same economic class hang out will less and less diverse groups they compete harder locally regardless of global rank.

This creates crank where even billionaires will whip their workers to death over competition with their neighbors.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by smallmancontrov on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:37PM (#50459054)
Fortunately, it also makes unwinding the situation easier because assets can fall without upsetting local ranks (relatively speaking, on all three counts).
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by viklove on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:30PM (#50458254)
> So, people want to do better than their neighbors, not just do well.

That's not what your data shows. It just shows that people don't want to be near the bottom of the pile, because it indicates they're being mistreated (which they are).

People don't want to "do better then their neighbors," they just don't want to be left behind by society.

Framing it the way you do makes it seem like everyone desires brutal social darwinism. It's not true. People just want to be treated fairly and live in a relatively egalitarian world.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by teiferer on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:39PM (#50458363)
> people want

I'm not dismissing what you are saying, but do you have evidence for what "people want"? In my experience, when somebody claims to know what people want then it tends to be a mix of "I want", "the people I know want", "I hope people want", "people should want", and a few others, rarely with any evidence.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by nyeah on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:48PM (#50458465)
[delayed]
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by jaklwef9awefioj on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:51PM (#50458503)
Why People Prefer Unequal Societies (Starmans, Sheskin, & Bloom, 2017)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315944588_Why_peopl...

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by bsenftner on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:34PM (#50459752)
For the interested: people prefer a 'fair' society, which means if a person puts in more effort it is fair they receive more, which creates inequality by the simple fact some work harder than others, some work less, and it is only fair they each are compensated equal to their effort.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by vigilantpuma on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:41PM (#50458382)
If people wanted to do better than their neighbors, the simple solution would be to move to a poorer neighborhood.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by nemomarx on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:46PM (#50458449)
Expats moving to a low cost of living country kind of do this?
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by jpatten on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:54PM (#50458536)
Also gentrification in cities like NYC is this same pattern.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by palata on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:04PM (#50459323)
That was an expression.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by charlie90 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @06:24PM (#50460427)
this is basically what people do by being expats
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by geraneum on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:46PM (#50458442)
> it seems like competition for housing drives up prices as wages increase

This is a significant claim. What do you base this on? Are there any studies or references?

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by MattDamonSpace on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:50PM (#50458491)
Anecdotal but many major cities in America have this issue

San Fran is a clear example, tech money is driving the price for scarce homes up substantially. Go peruse Zillow and see the insanity

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by jpatten on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:53PM (#50458519)
Here is one: https://www.frbsf.org/research-and-insights/publications/eco...

"Research shows that average U.S. income growth is strongly related to rising house prices but is essentially unrelated to changes in the supply of housing units across metropolitan areas."

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by smallmancontrov on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:05PM (#50458652)
On the Principles of Political Economy and Taxation by David Ricardo.

This book is most famous for being misquoted by nitwits trying to argue that globalization is always good for everyone, but if you had asked David Ricardo he would have said his most important result was that of Rent (later specified as differential rent or Ricardian rent), the idea that economic productivity tends to get squeezed onto land prices. A modern update would argue that this applies to assets more generally. Assets go up by squeezing productivity out of the main economy. Whether you think this is brilliant or terrible depends largely on whether you own lots of assets.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by nine_k on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:46PM (#50458443)
Also ambition. We still want more.

The "golden billion" people almost all live in luxury, by the standards of an early industrial society like the early 19th century Europe which Marx described, and daily use a ton of amenities which even the mightiest king could not afford 1000 years ago. But we take it for granted.

I could have taken my savings and downshifted to a comfortable life in a third-world country. But instead I've put them in my wife's business, and keep working, while living in one of the most expensive cities in the Solar system. This is because I want a better education for my children, and success for the business. (The city is also enjoyable when I have the time.)

Then, some amenities are still expensive. Think about medical care, especially larger-scale like cardiac surgery. Well, think about the cost of a Claude subscription if you live otherwise happily for $25 / day in an inexpensive third-world countryside.

We work so much because there's still utility in it, in many cases. We have plenty, but not plenty enough.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by testing22321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:56PM (#50458564)
I used to live in a big city and work as a software engineer.

I realized it wasn’t making me happy. Sitting inside everyday is not how I want to spend my life. Now I live in a mountain town of 10,000. I work 10-20 hours a week on writing and books. I snowboard 100 days a season. We took our 6 month old on a trip for a year (wielded got 18 months maternity leave) she works 3 days a week.

I cut our firewood so we have no heating bill, have no phone, no tv. We really enjoy the simple life. We have plenty of time to host dinner gatherings, hang out with our daughter, etc.

The choice is there.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by skinfaxi on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:07PM (#50458673)
What do you do for health insurance? That seems to be the big thing at least when I was not a W-2, and the state marketplaces are not cheap and way worse than insurance from any employer I've had.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by testing22321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:12PM (#50458741)
I immigrated to a country where everyone gets it.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by palata on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:08PM (#50459381)
Do you benefit from the fact that the others do work, then? Or would it still work if everybody was living like you do?
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by skinfaxi on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @08:39PM (#50461904)
Do you think the person to whom you replied doesn't pay taxes or something?
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by palata on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:18AM (#50465292)
I guess it felt to me that the OP was answering the question "why are we still working this hard" by giving an example of how we actually could work less.

Which does not seem to be the case at all. The OP seems closer to someone who would be wealthy if they worked full time (they say that by working 10-20h a week, they still make more than people on minimum wage).

They conclude with "The choice is there". Sure, "the choice is there" when you are wealthy enough.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by testing22321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @08:56PM (#50462047)
I work, earn money and pay taxes. So does my wife. We have a mortgage, and pay property taxes too.

Is it a requirement of society to work maxx?

If a doctor can earn $50k a year working one day a week and a Walmart worker has to work 40 hours a week to earn $50k, does the doctor have some kind of obligation to work and earn more? What if they just want the kind of life $50k a year allows for?

Should the Walmart worker do 80 hour weeks to contribute the same taxes as an engineer working 40 hour weeks?

Surely we all get to choose how much we work.

If I want to live in a 100 year old house and ride my bike with no phone and no tv, and modest lifestyle, it’s absurd I should be forced to work “full time” when I earn as much as I want to live the life I want. That is my choice.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by palata on Thursday November 12, 2026 @01:51AM (#50463883)
That was a genuine question: you say you don't have to worry about paying health insurance because you immigrated to a country where it's free, right?

My question is: if it's free, it comes from taxes. And if you earn less, you contribute less. Does it pay for your health insurance, or do you benefit from the fact that others work more and contribute more?

Not saying you should be ashamed at all. Just wondering if you would get the same level of health insurance in a world where everybody did the same as you. I guess not? Which is maybe fine, of course.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by testing22321 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @02:28AM (#50464104)
I pay more taxes than the millions of people on minimum wage.

Ashamed is the opposite of how I feel.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by palata on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:11AM (#50465238)
> I pay more taxes than the millions of people on minimum wage.

I assume those people couldn't survive on working 10-20 hours a week, if they are on minimum wage at 100%?

I guess what I am saying is "good for you, but it's not like everybody can do that". You are lucky that you can do that, it's not "just a choice everyone can make".

It would be akin to saying "I had a high-paying job in a rich country for a few years, and then I retired in a poor country where I live like a king", in that... sure, but not everybody can have a high-paying job in a rich country for a few years, so being able to do that requires being privileged in the first place. I think it doesn't hurt to realise it.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by froh42 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:13PM (#50458744)
I live in a big city and work as a software engineer.

I love the city, the friend group, being into some communities that do not exist in small towns.

If you'd put the outdoorsy small town lifestyle on me, I'd kill myself.

I'm really happy for you it worked out, but what you suggest is not an overall solution. (And just imagine how your town would look like, if we all moved out of the cities ... we'd create new cities).

The fact that cities are big is cause by people wanting to live there, not elsewhere.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by esseph on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:21PM (#50458868)
[delayed]
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by palata on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:25AM (#50465337)
They said "if we all moved out of the cities". Do you think the whole world could live in the countryside? Historically people moved to the cities because they weren't able to live in the countryside anymore...
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by testing22321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:22PM (#50458876)
I am also very happy your choice has worked for you and you are happy.

Obviously it’s horses for courses.

That being said, would you take an extra paid week of leave if offered? What about two or three? Would you be happier? What if you had 20 weeks of paid leave? Would you be happier?

I think the very vast majority of people would work less if they could.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by palata on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:23AM (#50465316)
> I think the very vast majority of people would work less if they could.

But you also said "the choice is there". So which is it? If you think they can, and you also think they would do it if they could, then why do you think they don't?

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by palata on Thursday November 12, 2026 @05:21AM (#50465302)
> The fact that cities are big is cause by people wanting to live there, not elsewhere.

Actually, people moved to cities to get a job, when it became harder to have one in the country side because of industrialisation.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by enoint on Thursday November 12, 2026 @09:06AM (#50467313)
But we’ve fixed the life expectancy since then. Nowadays cities actually have higher life expectancy.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by esseph on Thursday November 12, 2026 @04:03PM (#50474245)
[delayed]
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by nine_k on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:31PM (#50458988)
Do you have a family? How large? How much do other family members contribute, in income or labor, into the operation of your household?
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by testing22321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:09PM (#50459394)
Yep, wife and young daughter. Wife works 3 days a week.

They are the reason I choose to work less - to spend time with them doing the things we love.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by 9rx on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:12PM (#50458739)
> This is because I want a better education for my children

The research strongly suggests that the most important factor in giving a child a better education is the degree of parental involvement. Do you think working and focus on business success gives you more attention capacity to be involved with your child's education than the downshifted option would have?

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by nine_k on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:29PM (#50458962)
Above some nonzero level of parental involvement, the peer group dominates. I want my kids to be around brighter, nicer kids; many of them gravitate to schools in expensive locations.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by 9rx on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:43PM (#50459116)
The research shows that peers do become significant in the teenage years, but suggests that parental involvement is still most important even then. Prior to that, peer group seems to have little-to-no effect.

So, the good news is that even if you want to give your best in that area, you only have to endure for five years, give or take. Something tells me you won't be packing your bags after that, though. The combination of words gives the impression you're actually more interested in the appearance of giving your child a good education more than giving a good education.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by Choad_20261104 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:27PM (#50459654)
I was one of the dumbest among the smart kids I hung out with, the bad influence, but we did have fun. peers count for alot, parents count for alot. but what counts the most is the kid him/her self. I say this because there came a moment, and I remember it well, when I knew that I knew how to learn. before that, I didn't not know that.

I knew WHAT I wanted to learn, just not how to learn it, how to nurture and guide myself. it was a big deal and it still is

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by layer8 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:32PM (#50458995)
> Also ambition. We still want more.

That’s not ambition, that’s desire. Ambition is wanting to do more.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by nine_k on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:55PM (#50459226)
Running a business is wanting to do more, in my book. If I just wanted more money to burn on consumption, I'd buy more NVDA instead, or something.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by layer8 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:00PM (#50459277)
You weren’t talking about running a business, but in investing into one. The question is do you primarily care about what the business is accomplishing in the world, or do you mostly just care about the money you get out of it.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by nine_k on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:30PM (#50459695)
Investing in my wife's business inevitabily comes with also doing quite some work for it :) I'm just not at helm. And it's not primarily money I care about here, but money is the lifeblood of business, you can't avoid earning and spending rather noticeable amounts.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by oreally on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:56PM (#50458554)
This. The last time I looked at this, worldwide median salary to house price ratio has stayed stuck at about 5 years for the past few decades.

Hey, hopefully some of you techbros can 'disrupt' the status quo.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by hdgvhicv on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:33PM (#50459011)
Pre 2000 the U.K. ratio was about 3-4

Post 2008 it has been about 6-8

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:51PM (#50459187)
[delayed]
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by hdgvhicv on Thursday November 12, 2026 @03:05PM (#50473399)
So not where near 5 times, either far lower or far higher

(Well unless You say “near 5” is 3-9)

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by snarf21 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:57PM (#50458573)
This is why Keynes' prediction "... that technological progress and rising productivity would lead to a 15-hour workweek (about 3 hours a day) by the year 2030." was so wrong. He couldn't imaging the increase in our demand for standard of living which has becomes a hamster wheel. He just saw that we'd no longer need to grow our own food or collect water or chop wood to stay warm or hand wash clothes or any of the other huge labor needs of the previous century.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by hdgvhicv on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:28PM (#50458943)
Keynes lived less than a century ago when people did it grow their own food, they lived in New York tenements
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by metabagel on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:55PM (#50459222)
I would work fewer hours/days if I could. Employers mostly don't like this. Also, working fewer hours could affect my ability to obtain health insurance in the U.S.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by palata on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:03PM (#50459311)
I guess the point is that you cannot work less if the others don't.

If we all agreed to work less (and have less), it would actually work. But as soon as competition enters the game (some people work more and have more)...

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by nerdstomper on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:52PM (#50460020)
> I guess the point is that you cannot work less if the others don't.

Ah, damn, that's the catch with everything isn't. As alway, the only winning move appears to be not to play, and to even get to state where you can drop out, you need to play well for at least a while.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by master_crab on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:04PM (#50459322)
He was wrong but not necessarily for this reason.

If anything, it’s many of the basics that have become more expensive. Housing and education are far more expensive today then 100 years ago (as a share of average salary). And some things like health care, while more effective today, definitely absorbs a much higher share of people’s wallets (and the nation’s GDP).

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by proneb1rd on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:51PM (#50459992)
Totally. If business can ship more in less time. They won’t stop at 15-hour, they will keep shipping more because competition and hamster wheel. In fact, I feel like the amount of work is actually increasing too…
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by TimTheTinker on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:06PM (#50458660)
> people's happiness seems to be more correlated with their economic rank in a society

That may be broadly true, but it's descriptive, not prescriptive.

There are many relatively poor people (with physical needs met, but not always) who are far happier than most of the top 1%. The secret is character -- things like contentment, thankfulness, and showing faithful love to family and people in general.

Re:Why are we still working this hard? by metabagel on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:56PM (#50459233)
My happiness is correlated with how much time I spend outside, which is inverse to the number of hours which I work.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by boogieknite on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:48PM (#50459952)
more simply, my happiness is correlated with how few obligations i have, especially obligations im uninterested in, such as paying banks interest on loans
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by ponector on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @06:34PM (#50460532)
You could work outside and be happy. Be a lawn mower, a shepherd or a forest ranger.
Re:Why are we still working this hard? by api on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:59PM (#50459269)
A secret to happiness is not doing this, evaluating your well being in terms of your own goals not comparisons or externally imposed metrics.