[delayed]

already a thing.... look at the problem solving skills of some of the fresh grads

> I can remember two times I fell asleep on the bus, and ended up some other place, and had to figure out how to get home from there, by myself.

if it involved asking a business (car service in my case) to let you use their phone, or already having a quarter and using a payphone to call mom... thats an airtag :)

> a child might get accustomed to this "saving" being automatic

i dont fear a perfectly functioning society; im an adult and am also used to 911/999/etc being available. some people watch Demolition Man and get the wrong idea...

> if it involved asking a business (car service in my case) to let you use their phone, or already having a quarter and using a payphone to call mom... thats an airtag :)

No. An airtag works for your mom no matter if you want it or not, some payphone on the street places the agency about calling help into your hands.

> having a quarter and using a payphone to call mom

I had enough coins for 2 phone calls in a sealed envelope in my school bag for emergencies - probably still in the bottom of my bag wherever it may be.

It is not an airtag. The payphone doesn't use a network of snitches to say where you are at all times. It is really bad to instill the idea that you are never private, it makes our surveillance situation worse and more accepted. Which i am sure hackernews and the EFF have plenty of articles to show why normal people need privacy.

> that’s an airtag

How so? Mom has no way to know where you are until you initiate the call. Isn’t a big part of the developmental point to have kids recognize they’re lost on their own and then ask for help from a friendly stranger? What’s the ‘no airtag’ scenario you imagine?

> none of these are prevented when you have an airtag in your pocket

Do you want to install an app on your phone that will track you and your online activities for the government? They won't interfere, they just want to know what you're up to and help. Children are people and want some privacy too. I know I did.

Presumably, when this generation comes of age they will largely answer this question with "sure, I don't see the problem", which many will consider a big win.

> none of these are prevented when you have an airtag in your pocket

It instills a Panopticum-like philosophy in said kids since their very early ages, meaning they become aware that they're being watched at every moment of their lives. In my opinion that does affect said kids' future look on life (once they will have become adults, that is).

> It instills a Panopticum-like philosophy in said kids since their very early ages

Santa Claus has been around since before airtags; you dont need technology to make kids fearful of invisible retribution ("he sees you when youre sleeping, he knows when youre awake")

that only works for very vey very young kids.

I dont get your point

We’ve strip-mined every cultural superstition and monster for the entertainment industry, but those superstitions and monsters often existed - even in the minds of adults - to warn against certain behaviors, actions or locations.

Santa Claus for the very young; an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God for everyone else.

Soon we'll all be watched over by machines of loving grace.

It's not "everyone" else though is it. Especially not in the recent decades where this surveillance has become a real thing.

What does that have to do with the subject of discussion: instilling a Panopticum[sic]-like philosophy in said kids since their very early ages?

It's true that the idea of 'someone is watching you' is very old and a well-tested method of social control. The religious angle may be why so many people are receptive to mass surveillance today. But not everyone is religious, and those that are rarely live with a true, 24/7 feeling of dread and fear that someone is actually watching. The fear of consequences is very distant, and there is often forgiveness for small infractions. That fear becomes very different when you can put a face and a name to the people watching you, and you know they can affect your life in very real and immediate ways. This is the preconditioning that starts with childhood surveillance.

I've spoken to many of the deconverted who where genuinely afraid of committing real and mental sins as a direct condition of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. Have you not met someone like this?

are u saying that people shouldn't be afraid of the consequences of behaving improperly ?

I'm saying, in response to "The fear of consequences is very distant, and there is often forgiveness for small infractions," that people do have a fear of misbehaving and a belief in an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent god is a critical component of a 'feeling that someone is always watching' resulting in that fear and subsequent avoidance.

certainly proponents of surveillance capitalism would argue that the brain must percieve a social slight in the same way it percieves a slight against god. i can imagine some of these types whispering morpheus quotes to themselves in bed. "the need to be observed and understood was once satisfied by god ..."

I was under the impression that proponents of surveillance capitalism wish to protect their private property. Must it be more complicated than that?

If that was so people who were more religious would be more accepting of surveillance and I do not think that is the case.

God is also perfectly good, outside time, unlikely to question your actions, and completely forgiving. Rather different from being watched by human beings.

I do not think belief divine omniscience by itself had much impact on people's behaviour.

Why would a religious person, holding a sincere belief their actions cannot be hidden, want more surveillance? It would be redundant, no? Maybe they can chime in and resolve it. Best to hear from a source directly.

I am a religious person.

There is no religious reason for more surveillance - which its with the point I made.

The reasons for wanting more surveillance are entirely secular: things such as catching criminals, protecting children etc. They are about giving power to the authorities, and how desirable more surveillance is depends on how much you fear what it is supposed to stop, and on how much you trust to authorities to use the powers you give them ethically and effectively.

And only on christmas day. They dont think long term, no getting christmas gifts is not a treat in november - it is infinetely far for a small kid.

Most kids have an important developmental moment where they realize Santa isn’t real

Yeah, but then there's religion with an all-viewing God or gods. And years of these ideas repeated never really goes away. After all, what if there really IS a God, or Vishnu, or Allah, and a Hell, etc.! The very idea is enough to drive a kid to Pascal's wager.

There’s many people who don’t believe in either Santa or god. Only about half of younger people believe in hell in the US.

Unfortunately, even those who escape such beliefs now have to face the reality of surveillance not by gods, but by men, many of whom don’t have your best interest in mind.

Yes, it normalises surveillance.

AirTag showed a mom her kid was in a lake, she made a big scene, frantically calling 911. Kid was not in the lake.

> none of these are prevented when you have an airtag in your pocket.

Technically true. However I think there is a very small percentage of parents that can keep themselves from interrupting in such a situation. Actually I think it leads to a slippery slope situation (the article calls it a downward spiral) where the interruptions will be easier to make the more you do it as a parent. The only question remaining is how high up the slope do you start and how fast do you slip?