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Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by lukewarm707 on Thursday October 15, 2026 @04:53PM (#50110050)
It reminds me of this quote from Judith Butler:

"The move from a structuralist account in which capital is understood to structure social relations in relatively homologous ways to a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation brought the question of temporality into the thinking of structure, and marked a shift from a form of Althusserian theory that takes structural totalities as theoretical objects to one in which the insights into the contingent possibility of structure inaugurate a renewed conception of hegemony as bound up with the contingent sites and strategies of the rearticulation of power."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/1999/dec/24/news

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by tonic_note on Thursday October 15, 2026 @06:34PM (#50111340)
It always amuses me when people throw a fit when they can't understand technical philosophy written by experts, for experts. You never see someone posting an excerpt from a physics journal and being like "ugh so inaccessible!!!"

Like, I'd get maybe if she wrote this in a NYT opinion piece– but this was written an obscure book you'd have to go out of your way to find.

BTW, this is not that hard to comprehend if you're familiar with continental philosophy, go figure!

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by WarmWash on Thursday October 15, 2026 @07:10PM (#50111642)
The irony is that the experts don't understand it half the time either.
Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by tonic_note on Friday October 23, 2026 @05:49PM (#50215849)
I mean, some do write in their own bespoke technical jargon (Lacan, Derrida) which does require a lot of investment to get into, but a lot of continental philosophy uses a shared lexicon because they're building off of each other's ideas. It's a conversation. At the very least Butler is not the biggest offender in this regard.
Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by Athanase000 on Friday October 16, 2026 @09:15AM (#50118012)
Sokal and Bricmont have debunked your amusement eons ago.
Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by Animats on Thursday October 15, 2026 @05:47PM (#50110810)
Why? The neural network paper is straightforward and has lots of illustrations showing concrete examples of what happens as images move through the stages of a classifier.

The above quote is from "The world's worst writing".

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by lukewarm707 on Thursday October 15, 2026 @06:43PM (#50111420)
Let me quote the opening paragraph of the paper:

"After many months studying neurons and circuits in image and language models, I’ve come to believe a network’s own mechanisms are its legible building blocks, and that the outlook for mechanistic interpretability may be far better than I’d feared. The canonical evidence of polysemanticity and superposition that convinced much of the field, including me, that networks pack concepts arbitrarily was misread. What looked like arbitrary packing was mostly a motif I’ll call recursive generalization, which is much less concerning."

> > "a network’s own mechanisms are its legible building blocks"

Indecipherable.

> > "The canonical evidence of polysemanticity and superposition that convinced much of the field, including me, that networks pack concepts arbitrarily was misread."

State the claim in plain english. Use the active voice.

"Concepts do not overlap arbitrarily."

> > "What looked like arbitrary packing was mostly a motif I’ll call recursive generalization, which is much less concerning."

Jargon!

"Concepts overlap in a recurring pattern."

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by D-Machine on Thursday October 15, 2026 @06:56PM (#50111541)
There is indeed a huge amount of useless jargon and IMO deliberate obscurantism in deep learning research.

Sometimes it is to defensively ward off critics, sometimes it is to woo the naive and ignorant, and sometimes it is because the basic ideas are really just incredibly simple and based on simple mathematical intuitions or hunches.

In the latter case, papers and authors appeal to some obscure or overly-complicated technical theory (which usually doesn't actually apply at all to current deep models as they are actually implemented, e.g. infinite-width networks and other such purely theoretical abstractions) to cover up the fact that they really just had a lucky intuitive guess (and likely that twenty other intuitive guesses just didn't pan out). This appeal to theory is often self-deception as much as it is appealing to academic reviewers.

I think this article is a bit of Nick wooing himself and others here... I'll wait for his supposedly forthcoming paper to see if there is any real meat in it.

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by lukewarm707 on Thursday October 15, 2026 @08:20PM (#50112147)
I would even say "Arbitrary packing" was a weak conclusion to begin with.

'Arbitrary' was the wrong word, projections encode information.

The more charitable 'random' is a null hypothesis. It is formally impossible to prove. It is uncomputable.

So it is not surprising to see someone reject the null.

The fact that it was given any credence suggests to me deep problems with interpretability or ai safety in general.

Take the headline here: "interpretability might be the most important scientific problem in the world right now, as I don't think we can solve alignment if we don't know what we're building."

I deny even the existence of alignment. In my view, the field of 'alignment' works on a problem that does not exist.

Alignment is a reference to something that does not exist in the model: social norms. It will never be intrinsic to the model. You will not find it there.

'Neurons' are not primitives either, they are not intrinsic to the model. 'Neuron' is a human-constructed category. It is easy to just make up intrinsic properties of neurons and get away with it.

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by D-Machine on Thursday October 15, 2026 @08:36PM (#50112223)
Yes, "alignment" is very wishy-washy and often does mean pointless moralizing / following of social norms. Obviously thinking about alignment in that sense will be a waste of time, since we don't have particularly consistent or universally applicable ethics (or frankly even general knowledge) in the first place.

But if the term is understood in a more narrow and applied sense, it is a useful shorthand (or can be). Jon Stokes said it nicely on Twitter recently:

    There is no "alignment problem" to actually "solve" in 2026. The "alignment problem" presumed a single, stable utility function in an agent, and that's not what we got, so people should stop pretending that's what we got or are going to get.
    
    In place of "the alignment problem" we have a family of steering and control problems that cannot be separated from the specifics of an application context. We have process quality & control problems, like the engineers who work on nuclear reactors or chemical processes.
https://xxcancel.com/jon_stokes/status/2110404230053802443#m
Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by lukewarm707 on Friday October 16, 2026 @07:44AM (#50117212)
Agreed, steering and control problems are important.
Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by mike_hearn on Friday October 16, 2026 @05:44AM (#50116278)
It's a research paper targeted at other researchers; you do need to understand some of the field for it to make sense. It's not written to be MechInterp 101.

But it's not bad writing. It's actually very clear. I'm not an professional AI researcher, I just read papers for fun, but I found everything in Nick's article clearly articulated and easy to understand. It's actually one of the more digestable papers I've come across this year.

Here's a translation to easier language:

> "a network’s own mechanisms are its legible building blocks"

To understand this you have to know that up until now attempts to figure out what's going on inside neural networks have relied on indirect techniques, in particular by training another neural network to "unpack" what's happening in the first. This was driven by the belief that a deep neural network isn't directly readable (legible) because the neurons do so many unrelated things simultaneously.

Nick is saying that actually, you don't need a second neural net. You can just read out what's happening directly from the first's own "mechanisms" (arrangements of neurons and weights between them).

> "The canonical evidence of polysemanticity and superposition that convinced much of the field, including me, that networks pack concepts arbitrarily was misread."

In simpler English: we thought individual neurons did lots of unrelated things, but that's because the standard evidence we had for that belief was misunderstood.

"Concepts do not overlap arbitrarily" and "Concepts overlap in a recurring pattern" don't mean the same thing as what he's saying.

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by lukewarm707 on Friday October 16, 2026 @06:52AM (#50116803)
"a network’s own mechanisms are its [...] building blocks" is tautological.

> > "the standard evidence we had for that belief was misunderstood."

The author did NOT misunderstand the evidence of polysemanticity and superposition. Rather, the explanatory hypothesis was incorrect.

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by mike_hearn on Friday October 16, 2026 @07:53AM (#50117269)
The word "legible" is the critical part of that sentence.
Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by lukewarm707 on Friday October 16, 2026 @09:07AM (#50117923)
No: "a network’s own mechanisms are its legible building blocks"

Yes: "mechanisms within networks are legible"

or even, "networks are more legible than we thought".

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by Der_Einzige on Thursday October 15, 2026 @08:00PM (#50111993)
She's a charlatan/fraud, queen of fashionable nonsense. Reject her.
Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by Drupon on Thursday October 15, 2026 @06:07PM (#50111063)
This is really not that complicated a quote anyway. It is packed full of jargon, but she's talking about moving from a structuralist mindset to one that views power structures as formed contingently from their society rather than structurally from capital.

Not surprising that this philosophical philistinism is from an Anglo publication.

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by NaiveEmpiricist on Thursday October 15, 2026 @05:11PM (#50110315)
Butlerian Jihad?
Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by astrange on Thursday October 15, 2026 @06:25PM (#50111268)
Continental philosophers do frequently write complete nonsense (often intentionally), but this isn't hard to follow.

> Althusserian theory

though I think using this term is rather un-feminist because of the part where he killed his wife, but basically continental philosophers will forgive you for anything as long as you're a French communist.

Re:Neural Networks Are Already Clean by Athanase000 on Friday October 16, 2026 @09:16AM (#50118020)
Halte, tu serres ! as another well-known French communist used to call him.