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Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Betelbuddy on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:14AM (#47123354)
Saying this is just the market...is like saying housing is a free market after hedge funds buy your entire neighborhood...
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by NikolaNovak on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:32AM (#47123613)
But... They're not wrong. That IS the market. Unrestricted, gloriously free market with its historically predictable outcomes - yay!

That's not where the interesting discussion is. The interesting discussion is with the notion that free unregulated markets are universally good and will naturally lead to positive outcomes because... I don't know, I'm personally not religious, but somebody here will help me :-).

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by hvb2 on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:49AM (#47124852)
Commodities used to be proper free markets. Many suppliers and many buyers of a product that was the same regardless of the supplier.

This lead to low prices and/or differentiation with new products.

Most of these markets were too good, so in general we now have a few big companies buying up the lion share of the supply so they can set the price regardless. For example soy, just to name one

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by pluralmonad on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:56AM (#47124058)
Where are these unregulated markets? Are you trading with your neighbor? If so, good, the more of that the better.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by nutjob2 on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:25AM (#47124494)
An example of unregulated market is where I come to your house and put a gun to your head and in exchange for not pulling the trigger you give me your various items of value.

That's one form of trading with your neighbor.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by WarmWash on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:16PM (#47125302)
While you are technically correct, you are neglecting that it would a be a bad idea, because in such a market I would likely answer the door with a shotgun or I would have an agreement with my other neighbor to shoot you if you come to my door brandishing.

This is actually also how global diplomacy works. Either have big guns or big friends.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Xunjin on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:41AM (#47124749)
I think you have gone in the end of the spectrum, in a sense that even a state law's are being broken, we are talking about rules in the market itself.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by SR2Z on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:46AM (#47124812)
An unrelated market is an oxymoron. You could come to my house and put a gun to my head, but that's not a consensual trade. That's just thuggery; the point of a market is that both sides benefit from trade.

For markets to exist, property rights also need to be respected.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by nutjob2 on Monday February 23, 2026 @05:12PM (#47129747)
The gun was an analogy and the comment satire, but the thuggery is real and the weapon is money.

For markets to exist they indeed need to be regulated and when they aren't you get something other than a market, you get thuggery.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by SR2Z on Tuesday February 24, 2026 @03:24PM (#47142408)
But this is my point. People say "unregulated market" and assume that means reverting to feudalism, but what it actually means is just... less regulation.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by nutjob2 on Tuesday February 24, 2026 @05:34PM (#47144293)
You should try speaking to the Libertarian bros.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by SR2Z on Wednesday February 25, 2026 @02:04AM (#47148301)
The libertarians get a lot of things wrong, but generally they would agree that it's not a real market if people are getting coerced.

I'm not convinced that the system they want to build would actually protect people, though.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by shmeeed on Monday February 23, 2026 @01:51PM (#47126874)
Username checks out

Edit: upvoted because it's true

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by AlecSchueler on Monday February 23, 2026 @02:12PM (#47127234)
If you're relying on threats of violence to make your trades then you've become the regulator.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by jgalt212 on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:49AM (#47124856)
But these markets are only "free" if you ignore the net $5.5 trillion the Fed has printed post GFC.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WALCL

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by _DeadFred_ on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:35PM (#47125615)
Don't forget the Republican policy of starve the beast that includes Republicans happily putting the US into un-sustainable debt as a matter of policy, hoping to break the government so badly that Republicans can then enforce unpopular policy they can't get any other way.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by nurettin on Monday February 23, 2026 @02:40PM (#47127643)
See this is why we can't have cheap tinfoil.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by seertaak on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:23PM (#47125413)
Sorry, when you say "gloriously free market", do you mean whatever it takes EU, helicopter money (or, rewinding a decade, Greenspan put) US, or factory of the world China? :)

My point is that it's not a real market economy if the risk premium -- and in China's case, the exchange rate -- is rigged. And it has been, since the 90s.

EDIT: For clarity, I'm agreeing with you, since you were being facetious.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by rodrigodlu on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:58PM (#47126002)
What about even earlier? Like the petrodollar?
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by seertaak on Monday February 23, 2026 @01:22PM (#47126439)
Absolutely! -- and we could play this game for a long time ;)

The right way of looking at it is, there was tiny little interlude of something vaguely approaching the free market -- back when Volcker was in charge.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by nurettin on Monday February 23, 2026 @02:32PM (#47127542)
What they probably mean is that it is not a fair market, that there is no balance in purchasing power, pushing small scale buyers away while supply slowly catches up (or doesn't)
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by NikolaNovak on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:46PM (#47132618)
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I have not frequently heard the phrase "fair market" (as opposed to a far more limited and specific term "fair market value", where "fair" I believe applies to "value" and not "market") and would be interested in hearing more of its definition and criteria.

Trivially, I would assume proponents of "free market" and "fair market" are a tiny if not zero Venn diagram, and that terms are at least somewhat opposing, but will withhold my judgement :-).

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by nurettin on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:51PM (#47132990)
Oh I made it up on the spot, actually. It is just something to complain about.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by StopDisinfo910 on Monday February 23, 2026 @02:53PM (#47127811)
> That's not where the interesting discussion is. The interesting discussion is with the notion that free unregulated markets are universally good and will naturally lead to positive outcomes because...

The textbook desirable outcome is that competitive markets minimize suppliers'surplus which is good for consumers.

Not that this doesn't mean unregulated markets. Monopolies and oligopolies acting like a monopoly are textbook examples of pathological markets where suppliers can maximize their surplus.

I think pretty much everyone would agree that the current situation is a failure of regulation not over regulation. Regulator and legislation have been constantly weakened in the name of international competitiveness since Reagan.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by xp84 on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:27AM (#47123541)
People love to say that but they own a very small percentage of housing in reality. What’s driving housing costs is also supply and demand. Especially supply, since we’re not allowed to build any houses in most places people want to live.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by atomicnumber3 on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:33AM (#47123627)
Prices are decided at the margins. Having PE and REITs at every single table, even if their actual ownership is small as a %, makes huge differences.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Aurornis on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:51AM (#47124886)
You’re still missing the key point: Hedge funds and REITs aren’t arbitrarily buying housing at any cost.

They are responding to the market. If they overbuy then they will lose money and have to sell at a loss, at which point you could snap up some good deals.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by blactuary on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:05PM (#47125119)
This is ridiculously oversimplified, because there is no real market in housing. It is illegal to build in all of the places people want to buy. The purchase of housing by hedge funds isn't a problem on its own, it's simply a symptom of the bigger problem of supply restrictions.

The funds themselves say in their financials that they view housing as profitable because of the various restrictions on supply in every desirable city. They explicitly say that if those restrictions were lifted they would not be able to make money in that business and they would exit.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by atomicnumber3 on Monday February 23, 2026 @02:30PM (#47127499)
Any attempt to apply supply and demand and market theoreticals in housing is fundamentally misplaced, as the other commenter noted, because there are far too many forces that distort both supply and demand.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by cassepipe on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:35AM (#47124646)
> not allowed to build any houses in most places people want to live

Or to convert them into apartment buildings

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Betelbuddy on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:47AM (#47123869)
Read you response again. You are reinforcing my argument in case you did not notice...
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by BobaFloutist on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:54PM (#47125936)
Which doesn't sound like a free market to me. Capping production to keep asset price high is one of the most straightforward default examples of market-distorting interventions there is.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Aurornis on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:49AM (#47124858)
Hedge funds don’t have as high of institutional ownership as you assume. It’s actually pretty small.

That said, nothing about the situation you described is at odds with “free market”. You’re describing the operation of a free market.

I think a lot of people want “free market” to mean the opposite: A highly restricted market where they are protected from any supply and demand inputs from anyone else. They just want cheap things and don’t want to compete with anyone.

There are two sides to a free market, though. In your example where a hedge fund comes in and buys your entire neighborhood, they would have to do so by outbidding everyone. This drives up the price. If it’s an economically irrational move you’d be smart to sell your house to them at an inflated rate, too! Then move back in when the prices crash down.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Seattle3503 on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:06PM (#47125138)
Are there regulatory barriers to entering the DRAM market like there are in housing?
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by slaw on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:33PM (#47125583)
China blocked from buying ASML machines?
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by anthonypasq on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:23AM (#47123468)
correct, both of those things are examples of free markets
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Betelbuddy on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:33AM (#47123641)
Adam Smith had already clarified free market refers to a market free from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities.

You are confusing market outcome with market structure.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Aurornis on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:53AM (#47124904)
But where is the monopoly here? Nobody has a monopoly on housing supply or DRAM production.

Nobody is making an artificial scarcity. They’re producing as much as they can.

You can buy the exact same DRAM that the data centers are bidding on.

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by blactuary on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:02PM (#47125061)
There is absolutely artificial scarcity in the housing market, it is one of the biggest problems we face as a country
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Xunjin on Monday February 23, 2026 @11:44AM (#47124792)
Good point, however we can't miss the history which shows that free market are not achievable, in some fields of economic is seen as "fairy tale".
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Betelbuddy on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:39PM (#47125688)
Even dumb Greenspan already knew we dont want unregulated..."free" markets: https://youtu.be/AWM0l8_F_X0?t=412
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by blactuary on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:49AM (#47123923)
Incumbent owners preventing the construction of more supply to maintain their own property values is not "free market". This is very basic stuff
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by nradov on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:27AM (#47123533)
Which neighborhoods are now entirely owned by hedge funds?
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Betelbuddy on Monday February 23, 2026 @10:45AM (#47123834)
I should point out the relevance of my argument, is completely independent from the fact the reply to this questions of yours, is higher than zero.

So dont see this reply as a justification. Just as a note that you failed to do basic diligence on distortions that are well known. And as I said, that are not relevant to the analogy.

"When Wall Street Is Your Landlord" - https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/02/singl...

"In one Atlanta zip code, they bought almost 90 percent of the 7,500 homes sold between January 2011 and June 2012"

Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by nradov on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:27PM (#47125489)
That article doesn't support your point. Only a small fraction of the homes in that area are actually owned by hedge funds. You should check the facts before commenting.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by Betelbuddy on Monday February 23, 2026 @12:33PM (#47125587)
You misunderstood me for the second time...
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by nradov on Monday February 23, 2026 @02:23PM (#47127394)
Nope, I understood that your comment was both incorrect and irrelevant.
Re:Hetzner (European hosting provider) to increase prices by... by tosti on Monday February 23, 2026 @03:17PM (#47128155)
I understand you're being both rude and arrogant.