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Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @11:18AM (#46478354)
Eh, Saddam Hussein wasn't terribly popular. History is full of awful people being toppled and situations further degrading. Sometimes horrifically.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ethbr1 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @11:52AM (#46478801)
The issue with regime change is whether there's enough political cohesion in a country's population after a despot / autocrat is removed.

"The opposition" is rarely a large and representative enough group to effect national power transition. (Btw, thanks for flagging that incorrectly as affect, Apple)

Especially in multi-ethnic states, most cohesive national identities are forged through extremely popular singular leaders.

Unfortunately, those are exactly the same leaders external regime-change initiators are wary of (too independent).

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by jacquesm on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:00PM (#46478888)
> Especially in multi-ethnic states, most cohesive national identities are forged through extremely popular singular leaders.

And before you know it you have a genocide on your hands.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ethbr1 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:23PM (#46479176)
Sometimes, but it can go the other way too.

Napoleon Bonaparte, Toussaint Louverture, Simon Bolivar, Giuseppe Mazzini, Otto von Bismarck, Mustafa Atatürk, Gamal Nasser

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by jacquesm on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:39PM (#46479354)
A whole bunch of those are not the counterexamples you think they are.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ethbr1 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @01:08PM (#46479656)
Want to point out which / why?
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by delabay on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:22PM (#46479163)
This year's winner of the nobel prize is highly organized and ran a parallel election campaign, which was obviously dismissed by the Maduro regime. There is a slim possibility of a peaceful transition given the democratic efforts underway in Venezuela for many years at this point.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:41PM (#46479375)
POTUS just said she's not involved, won't be involved, doesn't have the support necessary to lead. Who does? Unclear. His plan appears to be: "oil companies come in, sell the oil" and I'm seriously not exaggerating.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ethbr1 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @01:14PM (#46479728)
> His plan appears to be: "oil companies come in, sell the oil"

In terms of nation-building, it's not the worst plan. See Carville's "It's the economy, stupid."

Popular support of any government is mostly (a) quality of life & (b) individual freedom. Quality of life is directly correlated to the economy and public finances.

If someone can quickly boost Venezuelan oil production, and therefore state revenue, then all sorts of social funding programs become feasible.

The issue with autocracies is that they selectively enrich key supporter groups (internal police, military) at the expense of others (wider population).

If you can substantially boost public revenue, then you don't have to make a tradeoff -- everyone gets more!

And there are certainly worse beginnings for new governments.

(All of this ignoring the flagrant violation of international law, international ramifications vis-a-vis Taiwan, climate change, etc.)

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @01:19PM (#46479780)
I’m not saying it’s a bad idea. I’m saying it appears to be the entire idea, which makes it a bad one.

He was asked “who will govern” and “when will there be elections” and “will there be boots on the ground” over and over.

His answers were “I don’t know”.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ethbr1 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @01:38PM (#46479996)
Well, Trump is probably the least qualified person in the administration to ask that question of, while at the same time no one wanted to risk contradicting his fancies on recorded television.

A bad look, but I seriously doubt the state department doesn't have some sort of plan for continuity of government.

Especially since, in critical difference with post-Hussein Iraq, no one in this administration seems ideologically opposed to working with the old guard, if they put on new colors.

Would be very surprised if the remaining elements of the government aren't put in temporary charge with guidelines (no killing protestors, freeing political prisoners, monitored elections on X date, etc.), then things are left business as usual.

With additional strikes if anyone tries to buck the system.

But higher placed members of corrupt regimes tend to be pretty pragmatic about their own skins when the winds shift, so I'd be surprised if anyone goes to the mat for a leader who's already been extradited.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @02:04PM (#46480279)
You can inject as many assumptions as you wish.

Right now the evidence is as I’ve stated it.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ethbr1 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @03:23PM (#46481143)
"It appears to be the only idea" is a bit strong.

'It's the only information about the plan presented in the last 15 hours' would be better.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @04:32PM (#46481819)
Nah, it's really not "a bit strong."

The President of the United States has stated over and over now that there is no transition plan. There is no successor. There is no plan for elections.

This isn't "he hasn't been asked" or "he has declined to comment." He has said affirmatively there is no plan.

So either he's lying or there's no plan.

In either case, my presentation is correct, and your assumptions are completely unfounded.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ethbr1 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @06:04PM (#46482662)
Trump's Reaganesque in Reagan's weaknesses, without any of his strengths. Except maybe charisma to some people.

At this point in his second administration, I'm firmly convinced that the bulk of the details aren't communicated to him and/or he forgets them.

Big decisions? Sure, he makes yes/no. But "Let me hear the plan for day x+1?" In what universe would the Trump we've seen ask that question? We're talking about the McDonald's guy.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @06:35PM (#46482986)
Under the hood here you're assuming Trump is (largely) incompetent to lead but surrounded by people who 1) know that and 2) are competent themselves.

A scarier possibility, which I think is actually far better evidenced, is that he's surrounded by people who largely believe he's competent (because it's a cult) and who are themselves not competent at all.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ethbr1 on Monday January 05, 2026 @04:42PM (#46505404)
I think the people around him believe (1) he's competent to win the popularity contest that is an election & (2) he's vengeful against any perceived disloyalty.

There are probably some true-believers among his cabinet, but most of those are evidenced by their paper-thin CVs and lack of their own power-bases (Hegseth, Bondi, Rollins, Chavez-DeRemer, Turner, McMahon, Noem, Zeldin, Loeffler).

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by vel0city on Saturday January 03, 2026 @11:22PM (#46484877)
So you've said:

> I'm firmly convinced that the bulk of the details aren't communicated to him and/or he forgets them.

But at the same time:

> time no one wanted to risk contradicting his fancies on recorded television.

So they're making plans, but they won't actually commit to any of the plans because in the end the plans are meaningless and Trump is going to push for whatever he wants at the moment. Doesn't that make the actual plans practically worthless?

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ethbr1 on Monday January 05, 2026 @04:32PM (#46505286)
That seems like an accurate appraisal of the last year.

Sometimes Trump doesn't decide to veer off-script and scupper plans. But it happens more than never!

And rarely, when he does, more informed heads are able to turn him back around. E.g. the bullshit 'Ukraine tried to assassinate Putin' scheme

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by pbhjpbhj on Saturday January 03, 2026 @02:45PM (#46480743)
>In terms of nation-building, it's not the worst plan.

Building which nation? The despotic dictatorship of USA one would have to assume you mean. The profits are no more likely to go to Venezuela's further development than they are to bring in universal health care in USA.

QoL is nothing if it is bought through the pain and suffering of others.

I don't know why you think this is a new beginning, it's just extension of USA's dictatorship to ensure even more people suffer and the USA oligarchy gets even more insanely wealthy.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by stickfigure on Saturday January 03, 2026 @11:50AM (#46478777)
Iraq was never a democracy. It bounced from monarchy to military rule to one party rule to Hussein's personal dictatorship.

Venezuela had a... let's call it "respectable" democracy since the late 50s. Chavez did it no favors but it didn't completely collapse until Maduro.

If Venezuela recovers and improves, are you willing to fundamentally change your opinion about US interventions?

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by jacquesm on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:04PM (#46478940)
Ethics debates are not served by utilitarian arguments.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by andsoitis on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:19PM (#46479138)
> Ethics debates are not served by utilitarian arguments.

There isn't just a single universally agreed upon moral framework that serves as the basis for ethics.

Depending on whether you adopt a Rawlsian, Utilitarian, Libertarian, or Communitarian moral framework, your actions would look different depending on the circumstances.

Specially, the Utilitarian moral framework optimizes for the greatest good for the greatest number. Willing to sacrifice the few of the many. It might not be your or my moral framework, but I don't know that we can rule it out as a valid way to approach ethics.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by jacquesm on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:36PM (#46479317)
> Specially, the Utilitarian moral framework optimizes for the greatest good for the greatest number.

No, the proponents of the utilitarian moral framework try to justify illegal actions retrospectively if the outcome was good and refuse to take responsibility if it is bad.

Ethics should guide your decisions beforehand and require you to take responsibility for all possible outcomes.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by andsoitis on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:41PM (#46479378)
Not sure I follow your line of thinking.

Are you arguing that Utilitarianism isn't a way to guide decisions? And are you saying it is an invalid moral framework?

FWIW, many ethicists suggest using multiple frameworks and would argue using Utilitarianism for policy.

For example, in the EU utilitarianism is rarely used as the sole moral foundation but serves as the primary tool for practical decision-making and public policy. Most visible in how the EU balances competing interests to achieve the "greatest good".

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by card_zero on Sunday January 04, 2026 @06:25AM (#46486994)
There's a lot of unprincipled ethicists around.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by stickfigure on Saturday January 03, 2026 @04:44PM (#46481944)
I have no idea what you're saying.

If your hand is on the track switch, you're just as responsible for the trolley no matter which way it goes. Walking away from the switch does not absolve you.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by jablongo on Saturday January 03, 2026 @02:21PM (#46480450)
Would the Rawlsian say this is unacceptable?
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @11:59AM (#46478884)
> If Venezuela recovers and improves, are you willing to fundamentally change your opinion about US interventions?

Uhh, no?

My opinion is that US interventions are incredibly risky. There have been numerous successes. There have also been numerous failures. Both have required immense resources and focus from us.

Some interventions are worth the risk, and others are not. I have not seen any compelling rationale for the risk-reward of this particular intervention, and have very low hopes for the follow through, which makes the risk-reward calculus even worse.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by mupuff1234 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:03PM (#46478938)
You don't think Venezuela having the largest oils reserves on the planet and it being a strong ally to Russia, Iran and China make the possible reward fairly significant from a US standpoint?
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:08PM (#46479003)
Sure it's conceivable. Can you go a level deeper on your analysis?

Are you suggesting that cutting off oil flow to those nations will be advantageous to us? Is this like... tomorrow? During a potential armed conflict? When?

By what specific mechanism does the US assert "control" over the oil? POTUS just now said it's via a ground occupation "until transition of power." What's the transition plan?

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by mupuff1234 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:16PM (#46479089)
Not cutting off, but it's enough that the US increases oil supply which lowers the prices to significantly hurt Russia and Iran. And then you have China which is the main consumer of Venezuelan oil so you get another point of leverage.

Also probably helps to ensure the petro dollar is here to stay for longer.

Obviously this is a very shallow analysis, and there's definitely significant risks, but I do think it's obvious that it has large potential upsides.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:27PM (#46479215)
Well... POTUS just said that the plan is to sell large amounts of Venezuelan oil to China and Russia.

So again: conceivably sure, but the details matter. The details we have right now do not look very promising IMO.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by jacquesm on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:39PM (#46479346)
It's not shallow, it is gullible. Of course Trump has an angle otherwise he wouldn't have done this. We can speculate about what the angle is but there is absolutely no way that he did this for the good of the Venezuelan population.

Edit: So, that took only 8 minutes, the other shoe just dropped, it was about the oil after all. Where do I collect my check?

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by mupuff1234 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:50PM (#46479448)
Oh yeah, I'm certain the intent behind this wasn't for the sake of the Venezuelan population, but that in itself doesn't mean it won't result in a better outcome for the population (but also not saying that it will)
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by stickfigure on Saturday January 03, 2026 @02:59PM (#46480904)
The thing I occasionally say about Trump is: "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day."

We ("the opposition") can't get into the frame where we say that everything Trump does is wrong. It's not frequent, but sometimes - yes even for totally wrong reasons - he does things which are probably right. Our identity needs to be more than just "the opposite of what Trump does", otherwise the Trumpists will frame all debates around issues that make us look crazy, rather than the issues that demonstrate blatant grift and criminality.

If Maduro is gone, it's a good thing. Let's go back to talking about the clear and obviously terrible things Trump does. Don't let them change the subject.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @03:13PM (#46481046)
> If Maduro is gone, it's a good thing.

Agree with your overall sentiment but this is just a ridiculous position to hold at this point. History is absolutely full of horrible people being toppled just for more horrible people to take their place. There is literally no evidence whatsoever of a plan for post-Maduro Venezuela. At all!

They're either acting completely clueless for the cameras for some unknown reason, or this is very likely going to go really badly.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by stickfigure on Saturday January 03, 2026 @04:35PM (#46481871)
Venezuela has already been going really badly, by nearly any quantitative metric of "how going". This is a country that - a couple decades ago - was a rare success story of democracy and prosperity in Latin America.

I think the Venezuelans will work it out, despite Trump's ineptitude.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @05:05PM (#46482179)
I see this sentiment around here a lot and I just have to laugh.

Things going badly does not mean — even at all — that things cannot go much much worse.

Libya was bad and got worse

Syria was bad and got worse

Afghanistan was bad and got worse

Sudan was bad and got worse

In fact, nearly every really bad situation was already bad, and then it got worse.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by stickfigure on Saturday January 03, 2026 @05:54PM (#46482557)
I can appreciate that but taken to its conclusion it's a recipe for paralysis and complacency. It always could be worse, so let's just let sit here and let shit happen?

Unlike all those places you mention, Venezuela has a democratic tradition which was only recently derailed. This isn't some middle eastern theocratic monarchy. It's "get back on track" not "find new tracks where none existed before".

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Saturday January 03, 2026 @06:04PM (#46482667)
No, shit can always get worse so act carefully and with a plan.

I and many others are asking for evidence of such a plan. The US administration has denied the existence of such a plan.

Maybe those factors you mention will turn out to be relevant or even determinative, and maybe not. I suspect in absence of an actual plan, the mere tradition of democracy will not suffice.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by stickfigure on Sunday January 04, 2026 @02:39AM (#46485839)
The Trump administration is incompetent to manage a pre-school, let alone world affairs. We're not going to get a plan. The best we can hope for is an occasional random steps vaguely in the right direction.

Maduro in prison is an improvement from Maduro still in power. Accept it as a tiny win and move on.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Sunday January 04, 2026 @08:19AM (#46487672)
Frankly insane position to hold ~24 hours after the events and with the information currently available.

You are aware you're allowed to say, "it'll take some time for this to shake out sufficiently to understand whether it's a tiny win, a huge win, net-neutral, or regionally catastrophic," right?

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by stickfigure on Monday January 05, 2026 @03:27PM (#46504432)
The future is always uncertain. Sometimes you just have to take the rare chances afforded. "Maduro suddenly recognizes the value of democracy and transitions power to Gonzáles" wasn't on the table.

I'd push the delete button for every unelected dictator on the planet if I could. Repeatedly. It's morally offensive not to.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by Loudergood on Saturday January 03, 2026 @11:09PM (#46484804)
In the short term this will likely decrease oil supply and drive up oil revenue for Russia.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by mupuff1234 on Sunday January 04, 2026 @04:18AM (#46486370)
Venezuela supplies less than 1% of the world's oil, basically meaningless.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by qcnguy on Sunday January 04, 2026 @03:26AM (#46486076)
China is heavily dependent on oil imports and a big part of Germany's defeat in WW2 was due to difficulties obtaining oil. This move may - if successful - change the calculation over Taiwan
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by estearum on Sunday January 04, 2026 @08:17AM (#46487650)
POTUS said his plan is to sell vast amounts of Venezuelan oil to China and Russia.

So what you say may happen, but not if "it" (being the plan stated by the orchestrator and executor of said move) is successful.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by JKCalhoun on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:49PM (#46479437)
"…it being a strong ally to Russia, Iran and China…"

You're making a pretty good case for high risk.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by mupuff1234 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:58PM (#46479533)
You could easily say the same thing about not doing anything.

But also remember that Russia is occupied in Ukraine and couldn't even help the Assad regime which was a much closer ally, and same with Iran.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by cloverich on Saturday January 03, 2026 @06:59PM (#46483180)
i think the argument is Venezuela can help - or hurt - Russia.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by NicoJuicy on Saturday January 03, 2026 @08:15PM (#46483727)
This is all about China, not Russia
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by ElectricalUnion on Saturday January 03, 2026 @04:26PM (#46481770)
> strong ally to Russia, Iran and China

It's more like (similar to other sanctioned countries) "forcibly coerced by the USA into being a ally of Russia, Iran and China by sanctions".

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by JKCalhoun on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:47PM (#46479423)
Agree.

If I wear a blindfold, cross a highway and am not hit by a car, am I willing to concede that crossing the highway blindfolded is safe?

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by singpolyma3 on Saturday January 03, 2026 @10:38PM (#46484639)
Since the purpose of the interventions is to get more access for US oil companies, they are always successes
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by Hikikomori on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:18PM (#46479113)
Ah so US will allow Venezuela to profit from their own oil? This time surely
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by jacquesm on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:37PM (#46479330)
I can't wait for the Total Energies or Shell Oil announcement.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by Hikikomori on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:41PM (#46479370)
With investments from Kushners Saudi fund.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by JKCalhoun on Saturday January 03, 2026 @12:50PM (#46479449)
You know there are boardroom meetings going on right now…
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by jacquesm on Saturday January 03, 2026 @01:46PM (#46480086)
100% on the money this comment. This is all about the spoils and absolutely not about the people or the drugs.

Thinking about this some more: good chance this whole thing was decided in a board room a while ago.

Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by qcnguy on Sunday January 04, 2026 @03:27AM (#46486088)
Yes it will. Iraqi government budget is ~88% funded by oil revenues.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by amanaplanacanal on Sunday January 04, 2026 @07:45AM (#46487412)
I'm not sure using examples from the bush administration are necessarily relevant to the actions of the trump administration.
Re:Venezuela's capital hit by explosions, smoke seen by catlifeonmars on Saturday January 03, 2026 @09:01PM (#46484023)
> Iraq was never a democracy. It bounced from monarchy to military rule to one party rule to Hussein's personal dictatorship.

In reference to this, have you seen the footage of Saddam Hussein taking power? It’s chilling.