My city has a big NG facility downtown that pipes heated water to a bunch of buildings, and it is surrounded by condos. I've never heard anything about it impacting the air (other than CO2 which is a global and not local issue).
Every building here (except for those connected to district heating systems), large and small, has a natural gas boiler or furnace. We have also several NG plants generating electricity within city limits. Again, localized pollution is not what concerns people about these things. Coal plants, on the other hand, tended to be way outside the city when they were still in operation.
You hear AI folks including Trump's AI Tsar David Sachs frequently promoting what happened in Tennessee as the future of AI power generation. They're calling it "behind the meter" power generation. Understand that this is what it is: generating gigawatts of power with dozens or hundreds of "small" gas turbines all stacked in one place. Instant, on-demand toxic triangle coming to a data center project near you.
Large gas plants are probably relatively clean overall, but the temporary, portable gas generators used by eg the xAI datacenter are not as tightly regulated and aren’t inspected or controlled in the same way. Given the particular corporate agent involved, I’d be surprised if any care at all were being taken to minimize air pollution caused by these portable generators.
And there are also decorative and/or supplemental gas heating devices which exhaust into the home.
it is about gas turbine high temperature and pressure, not about natural gas. That is why diesel engine does it too, while it isn't such an issue for regular gas engine, nor for "simple" LNG burners/heaters.
What xAI does here sounds horrendous. 270MW of gas turbines dumping the exhaust straight into the neighborhood. It is like 1000 diesel trucks running their engine full power 24x7 near your house.
Basically, it looks like the whole "xAI poisoning black neighborhoods" thing is the usual FUD by the usual agenda pushers.
https://www.facebook.com/abacustrategic/posts/pfbid02rrUwoWM...
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fYwcSi8vfPBnsYeK7
I don't doubt that it is a source of pollution, but I agree that this is overblown in the same was as the claims that datacentres are using up all the fresh water.
80ish% in the US live <100 miles from their hometown.
It would be wise to see "jobs!" Investment!" as little more than a mafioso like threat to agrarian-stay in one place-work to live types. "Sure is a nice Shire you got there. Better hope it doesn't suffer from lack of investment in jobs."
Threats of it all imploding are taken seriously by a lot of people.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/culture/generations/millennials-...
So what if it does? That's normal with the passage of time. As long as human biology exists humans will solve for those problems. Beyond that obligation is just socialized memes, ethno objects that come and go with the generations.
Everyone alive now worried about propagation of our culture sure does not seem concerned Latin fell out of common use. That they aren't spending their lives keeping old traditions alive should make it obvious old traditions don't mean that much to the living.
Politicians and rich need us servicing debt they so graciously took on to invest in jobs or we would be free to police them.
It implies that if this were happening near a non black neighborhood, it wouldn’t be as egregious, which is a strange moral stance.
Also 'historically' is irrelevant. Pollution hurts the people living there now.
The agenda, as it is every day, is how to externalize costs so that megacompanies don’t have to spend more money to keep our environment clean.
It feels racist to expect people to assume a neighborhood is 'resource poor' just because it is 'historically black'.
Also, the OP explicitly states that lawsuits are pending. Clearly, the community was able to mount a legal defense
Statistically poverty is correlated with race. For reasons to do with (quite recent) history.
Crime rates also statistically correlate with demographics, but if I assume a specific person is a criminal based on that stat, I would (rightly) be called racist.
Expecting people to assume 'historically black' == 'poor' similarly feels racist.
The facts of history show this. It is not a subtle statistical effect.
People who argue the way that you have been are either woefully ignorant of this matter or are playing games trying to justify the status quo, or are just racist trolls. This isn't a FAQ on HN because it's a FAQ in real life.
Who said anything about a specific person? They are talking about a neighborhood, in a urban area in a region known for the endemic poverty in black-majority areas due to the long shadow of slavery and Jim Crow.
As a wise character once said, "poverty is a condition, not a crime".
> > Expecting people to assume 'historically black' == 'poor' similarly feels racist.
There are a few historically black communities in the US that are middle-class and prosperous, and Black Americans have made huge advances, but to this day, concentrations of Black American community prosperity tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
It's not that simple.
Namely - I think most agree that it's racist to mindlessly assume race and poverty are correlated. The argument here is that the AI companies made that assumption - in other words, they're being called racists.
I don't think it's racist to speculate that a corporation, that made choices that specifically impact black neighborhoods, is racist.
I read it the other way: that it simply wouldn't happen in a white neighborhood.
Please read the article I linked in another reply to you.
My neighborhood was prosperous when it was systematically stolen from the black people who built it. They literally razed a thriving business district. And then the land sat empty for decades, only in the end to be sold to property developers.
They used eminent domain to steal people's homes and businesses in a way that was blatantly criminal, but the victims had no recourse given the courts and entire rest of the political structure was complicit in the actions.
And variations of this story played out everywhere across America.
So yes, the fact that a neighborhood is historically black is relevant, because it shows the events of today are part of a continued arc of injustice.
Here's an article about what happened literally where I'm sitting: https://kingneighborhood.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/BLEE...
Stories like this played all all over the US. Read up on Robert Moses for example.
Not that you intended it, but your comment veers close to the sort of "why do black people always talk about racism" thought ending cliche or similar demands to be "colorblind" that ultimately are only functionally used to shut down conversations about extant and continuing racism.
For example suppose you apply this to the US Senate. So instead of Group A (Democrats and a those who caucus with them) and Group B (Republicans) we instead think there's a single Group C, Senators. Now their behaviour seems incoherent, this Group C seems to hold contradictory opinions and behaves irrationally, why can't they get their act together? The actual answer is that we misunderstood and they're not a single coherent group so that's why they don't act that way.
The problem arises when an individual or group tries to represent themselves as more credible/consistent/coherent than they really are.
If you freely admit that you have multiple personality disorder, hypocrisy is to be expected from you as an individual. People know what they're in for.
If you respond to accusations of hypocrisy by saying: "Hm, that's a good point. I'll have to reflect and see if I can reach consistency here." Then people recognize you are making a good-faith effort.
I've observed that modern progressivism represents itself with a strong us/them boundary. The vociferousness of the rhetoric vastly outstrips the quality of the underlying reasoning/decision mechanism. And I've never seen a progressive say: "You make a good point, we'll have to debate on that."
You are correct that individual progressives may, in principle, be credible if they have a coherent philosophy which is consistently applied (including to critique their own "team" when appropriate).
But empirically, modern progressivism is more of a "meme ideology" where precepts are invoked when convenient, against whatever outgroup is currently fashionable. Progressive rhetoric, and progressive reasoning, is so flexible and untethered that if you're sufficiently talented at wielding it, it can be used to reach virtually any conclusion. The selective application of principles at the group level has strong parallels to how hypocrisy works at the level of an individual.
A movement can be meaningfully described as hypocritical, even if its individual members are not.
For what it's worth I had someone who identifies as progressive say something to that effect to me just last night.
It happens.
Humans are bad at that, and the ones who say it often don’t actually mean it. Some people claim their openness to debate, but that’s not the same as being open to changing one’s mind.
It can simply be the case that your accusations of hypocrisy are wrong, because your entire characterization of the discussion/position is wrong.
I'm not going to say "you made a good point" because you flatly have not.
“Women are terrible!”
“Uh, hey, that's pretty misogynistic.”
“Whoops, sorry, what I meant to say was, ‘White women are terrible!’”
“That's better.”
...
“Black men are violent!”
“That’s just a stereotype. Discriminating on the basis of immutable characteristics is wrong.”
“Whoops, sorry, what I meant to say was, ‘Men of all colors are violent!’”
“Right on, smash the patriarchy!”
https://substack.com/@plasmabloggin/note/c-160662902
There are dozens of cases like this. E.g. if you say white people are too powerful, that's enlightened. If you say Jews are too powerful, that's antisemitic. Double standards are the rule. Consistent, impartial application of principles is a very rare thing with this ideology.
And frankly, you characterization of those views makes clear you're not interested in actual answers.
The primary issue with gentrification in historically black neighborhoods is that owners face the dilemma of having to leave their community to capture the increased property values.
For example, I live near the oldest black church in the PNW. Many of the older congregation members live in the area, and have low mobility. If we don't build a mix of housing that addresses their needs in downsizing, they end up having to effectively exile themselves from the community they've lived within for decades. They can't simply "move somewhere lower cost" without dramatic changes to their entire social world, just at an age where keeping those social ties takes a lot of effort.
Or something. Yes, hypocrites are everywhere, but what are we debating here exactly?
The point is that this type of environmental pollution only is allowed to happen in poor areas that are disproportionately black because of decades of systemic racism like red lining.
If that concept makes you uncomfortable, that's a good thing, it should. But you should resist the urge to deny the existence of ideas that are inconvenient
https://www.thesidewalksymposium.com/blog/the-enduring-shado... , here is a quick overview of redlining in Memphis
Mississippi in particular is well known at the state government level to actively choose not to enforce environmental regulations in areas where its Black citizens live.
_Does_ the majority want AI services? I feel like the question “if you could stop AI, would you?” is far too controversial for this to be the case.
I'm incredibly skeptical of any claim that xAI's power use is putting a dent in the local environment, and "environmental racism" just reeks of the usual agenda pushing.
https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/xai-datacen...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnYdt4T76mk
You absolutely cannot park a bunch of truck mounted generators next to an existing plant and go "yeah it won't make a difference".
Back then, Sudbury looked like Mars.
by “agenda pushing” do you mean those who have an agenda to have breathable air? because that seems like an entirely reasonable agenda to me.
For my part I am prepared to accept that XAI might attempt to flout regulations. If I knew more about their operating practices I might even expect it. Even in that case I would not expect it to be the case that you could assume that they had done in any individual case.
While this isn't criminal law, the principle that underlies innocent until proven guilty still applies. I don't think it's acceptable do condemn people because you are assuming that they are doing the kind of thing you expect them to do. I think it is still incumbent upon accusers to make their case and for that accusation to be robustly challenged. Not just by people who stand something to gain by one outcome over another, but by people who want to find out the truth.
I tend to challenge ideas that support my viewpoint more than oppose, I find it incredibly irritating to encounter a flawed argument concluding something I agree with. Somewhat annoyingly it seems to cause people to assume I believe the opposite to what I actually believe, because there seems to be a presumption that you should accept all arguments in favour of your viewpoint no matter how bad they are. Apparently I'm not the right sort of team player.
>by “agenda pushing” do you mean those who have an agenda to have breathable air? because that seems like an entirely reasonable agenda to me.
I don't see how you could in good faith reach that conclusion from reading the comment above. It seems to me to be talking about the agenda of people expressing concern for others. That's the "Think of the children" kind of argument. Invoking disadvantaged groups in this manner very rarely expresses the agenda of the groups in question, it is usually made by people claiming that there own agenda is in the interests of the group indicated, frequently without input from that group. I don't know it that is an accurate claim to make in this instance or not, but it is certainly not characterising having the ability to breath as an agenda.
That immediately caused us to think "What's your agenda".
Another commenter wrote a rebuke - we're waiting for your response.
If anything my agenda here is to suggest to people that they should not imagine the opinions that exist in other people's minds and to respond to what they say and do.
If you must know my political leaning, It would be a non-relativistic form of far left. By non-relativistic I mean based upon a principle that is fixed cannot change. That principle is compassion. To some this makes me right wing because I reject demonisation of the wealthy, I defend radicalised people from abuse, I criticize the use of violent imagery like the guillotine by people who consider themselves Left wing. In simple political compass terms I am a left liberal. I don't feel that captures the sentiment exactly.
George Orwell once reflected on the term fascist, since due to his writing he was often called upon as an arbitor to categorize instances. Essentially concluding that the term had largely lost meaning due to people applying it to whatever they didn't like. He is often quoted with the same complaint that people have to this day. However most quotes do not place it fully in context. He wrote: "...almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come". I think there is a critical point here. My left wing principle of compassion goes against the principles of many self identifying left wing people of bullying those who's opinions they disagree with. That's not a progressive stance, it is taking the ground newly won by progressives as the new normal. In time they will come to fight the progressives as they remain stationary and the progressives, ...well, progress
Whether it’s worth demonizing anyone or not, we can condemn actions that hurt innocent people and we can maintain skepticism of the ultra-wealthy and their motives without “bullying”. It does sound like your principle of compassion extends a little too much towards capital and not enough towards labor.
>we can condemn actions that hurt innocent people and we can maintain skepticism of the ultra-wealthy and their motives without “bullying”.
Indeed and I do condemn actions. What I don't do is conddemn people.
I am for robust regulation, free expression, free movement, worker rights, Limiting wealth inequality, free fundimental services of health educatiion. I want more police but with fewer powers. I support harm minimalization over punishing drug users, I favour rehabilitation in prison over training recidivists, I am against hate in all its forms. My most extreme views would be that advertising is inherently harmful to society, and teaching any religion as true to someone under the age of consent is child abuse.
All of these come from the principle that I think all people have feelings,worthless and rights, they deserve the best we can provide for them. If they disagree with you the first step is trying to understand their point of view.
To me, imposing your will on others, dismissing people for thinking the wrong thing, shunning them for saying the wrong thing or associating with 5he wrong people, these are all properties that stand at the other end of the spectrum to me. I don't particularly care what label you put on the ideology over there, but whatever it is, those are the attributes that have caused some of the darkest moments in h7man history.
But there’s a need to balance even-handedness with a healthy skepticism of those in power. Otherwise you risk becoming an apologist. No one is saying not to do your homework or not to think critically, but we’re also saying not to come in guns blazing in defense of moneyed interests. That’s what the person who brought up the hidden agenda stuff seemed to be doing - making assumptions that favor capital without even taking the time to read the article that addressed those assumptions. That’s not even-handed, it’s biased against labor.
>are you skeptical xai would wiggle around regulations and pollute a city?
But they were responding to I'm incredibly skeptical of any claim that xAI's power use is putting a dent in the local environment which makes no claim as to whether they might obey or disobey regulations, the words "putting a dent" in the local envionnent*
The data from the article does not sufficiently address this, it uses satellite data and a short time frame. Without specifying the resolution of their data (which could be kilometer sized pixels) their claims about locality is in doubt. In short term measures, trends are harder to spot, a rise over months could just mean it is less windy in the nollowing season. Without a ground level meadurement of the air quality and a evaluation of the total local emission from all sources, you cannot hope to measure the health impact of a single cause.
None of that says that they are not polluting. What it says is that this is not evidence of it. Someone expressed skepticism based on the proportional emission of one of many of their ability to move the dial, and was challenged based upon the likelihood of what they might do. Claiming skeptasism that a thief could rob Fort Knox, is not a claim that the thief is honest
>by “agenda pushing” do you mean those who have an agenda to have breathable air?
I simply cannot believe that this is a reasonable interpretation of what they said.
That's the thing that motivated me to post on this thread. That the first post I responded to here was attacking the player, not the ball.
I continue to post replies here out of my own sense of duty to fully explain my position to promote understanding, I'm not trying to win anything here, I only want people to see a honestly held perspective.
It was bought up here because it seemed like the post I was replying to was contesting the reasons for making a point rather than the point it was making.
>Folks who cause harm should be punished not excused.
In this instance I think the issue is not think that was suggested otherwise. The issue was more of Are the claims true, Does it have the impact stated, and who caused them.
Personally I do not want those who cause harm to be punished. I want them to not cause harm. Seeking vengeance on harm already done is unlikely to lead to an understanding of why their actions were harmful. It motivates them to not get caught in future, I would much rather they not want to harm.
My neighbor’s don’t have a right to pollute my property by shining a bright light on it or blowing smoke into it or dumping chemicals into my underground well. Even if it’s mostly legal, it’s still a violation of my underlying right to property
/s because some of you are fucking psychopaths
> The turbines spew nitrogen oxides, also known as NOx, at an estimated rate of 1,200 to 2,000 tons a year — far more than the gas-fired power plant across the street or the oil refinery down the road.
> The turbines are only temporary and don’t require federal permits for their emissions of NOx and other hazardous air pollutants like formaldehyde, xAI’s environmental consultant, Shannon Lynn, said during a webinar hosted by the Memphis Chamber of Commerce. The argument appears to rely on a loophole in federal regulations that environmental groups and former EPA officials say shouldn’t apply to the situation.
> Mayo and Lynn didn’t respond to calls and texts from POLITICO’s E&E News requesting comment and have not said publicly how much longer the “temporary” turbines will remain onsite. Musk did not respond to a request for comment.
As you can see, xAI is being deliberately deceptive here and this has been known, but unaddressed for a while now. Remember that we are talking about a grave threat to the health and life of the entire population of a town. That too in a country where healthcare is deliberately unaffordable to ordinary folks. I don't know if you know how nasty formaldehyde and NOx smells.
How do you so casually trivialize and vilify such concerns as 'agenda pushing'? It's very sad that HN has too many apologists for these greedy serial violators and abusers. At the same time, the sheer lack of empathy towards the unprivileged is appalling! They're humans too!
[1] https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memph...
A thousand bots can spread a thousand lies faster than we can dispell them, but giving up the public square to them is worse.
What a situation...
There's a huge difference between a utility scale power plant (you know, with things like tall chimneys) and "truck mounted" generators in the impact to the local air quality. But you know this and are playing word games.
These generators polluted the nearby historically black neighborhoods in Memphis Tennessee with nitrogen oxides. Residents are afraid to open their windows, with the elderly, children and those suffering from conditions like COPD particularly affected. Lawsuits alleging environmental racism are pending.
xAI says cleaner generators will be installed but I think this episode shows that we cannot allow public interests to be compromised by private sector so easily just because they scream: Jobs! Investment!
https://time.com/7308925/elon-musk-memphis-ai-data-center/