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Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by mindcrash on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @07:47AM (#45810358)
True open source web browsers on Windows, and MacOS, are dead in the water.

This is because of the lack of Widevine CDM, and the majority of people wanting to stream stuff using services like Tidal, Netflix and Spotify.

They will also want to use a single browser for everything, which in practice means Edge, Chrome, Firefox or Safari.

Ladybird will very likely not have access to Widevine, because of the cost, requirements, and Google as gatekeeper. Some developers of small opensource Chromium/Electron based browsers also earlier tried and Google simply said no.

And even if they have reverse engineered the CDM extension (which will make Widevine work, not unlike a small hack/workaround with regard to Chromium and Chromium forks) it will not work because all browsers using Widevine on those two platforms require something called VMP (Verified Media Path) which is, as far as I understand, a certificate and verification library supplied by Widevine embedded within the browser.

Without VMP embedded in the browser streaming from popular commercial providers such as Netflix will not work on Windows and MacOS, even when the Widevine extension is in fact active.

Believe me, I checked.

IMO all of this is not only set in motion to (try to) protect from piracy, but also to kill any serious competition from small parties like LadyBird, and to keep the browser market firmly in the hands of the likes of Microsoft, Apple and Google. Because who will use a browser in 2025 unable to stream content, or without hacks at 720p maximum? (looking at you, Brave and Netflix)

This also means that browsers like Brave, Vivaldi and Firefox are in fact not true opensource browsers because their respective repositories do not contain the assets needed for VMP signing.

On another note, at this moment the majority of people should be glad that browsers with corporate backing and enough income like Brave (whatever you might think of Brendan Eich's ideas), Vivaldi and Firefox exist because without them you would have no serious choice on Windows or MacOS at all.

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by OscarDC on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @08:13AM (#45810653)
You seem to be mixing up some things even if there is some truth here.

First, a CDM (content decryption module) is only needed for encrypted contents. This is the case for Netflix, Disney, Prime etc. but not for some other platforms like Twitch or Youtube.

How it basically work is that you have a supplementary component installed in your browser (the CDM) which is able to extract keys from special files called "licenses" and which then with that key allow to decrypt incoming encrypted content. The license itself is provided by a license server, on the internet. It is the role of the application, in JavaScript, to fetch a license and rely on specific browser API (called "EME", for "Encrypted Media Extensions") to provide that to the CDM.

Google Widevine is not the only CDM implementation. On Windows, you also now have Microsoft PlayReady on Edge+Chrome+Firefox, and you have Apple FairPlay for apple products. They are closed source.

Now they are multiple "ways" to decrypt a content, you can do all in software (in the Widevine blob) or bring hardware capabilities (like a CPU TEE or secure enclaves in general in the CPU or GPU) to ensure that people won't easily be able to extract secrets (such as keys used to encrypt licenses) from those CDM.

"VMP", for "Verified Media Path" as you wrote is a term to indicate that all components that handle decrypted media can be trusted to not leak that data to the user, it implies large hardware involvement here (everything from decryption/decoding to rendering does not leave hardware).

Yet "VMP" is not the only way to decrypt a content. Most distributors Netflix included has support for both "highly trusted pipelines" like this and less trusted ones that can only decrypt in software (still in that closed source CDM).

In CDM parlance, this is often called the "security level". Widevine has "L1" for fully hardware decrypt and decode and "L3" for software decryption, PlayReady has "SL3000" for the former and "SL2000" for the latter.

To maximize support and still please content right holders, the idea from most distributors is to "protect" higher qualities (UHD, HDR etc.) through a high security level, yet let lower qualities be decipherable even on lower security levels. And on that subject, most devices on linux don't even have access to the hardware flavor of those, I don't on mine but I would if I were on a Windows OS.

But whether there's hardware decryption (implied by VMP) or software, it is true that this is a binary blob controlled by either Google or Microsoft today, so the spirit of what you wrote still hold.

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by binary132 on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @07:57AM (#45810480)
I don’t know about you but I am perfectly content to use a free browser and open either a nonfree browser or an app if I want to use a feature that is not available in my preferred software.
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by RamRodification on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @08:11AM (#45810624)
I don't know about you but I am very sad that I can't really recommend a browser not made by evil-mega-corp (or their associates) to friends and family because for some stupid reason that I can't explain to them, they aren't allowed to view high quality streaming video with it.
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by binary132 on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @10:55AM (#45812396)
“It doesn’t work with Netflix, but I just open Chrome when I want that”

is that really so hard?

DRM is not a good thing

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by andriesm on Wednesday November 05, 2025 @06:57AM (#45821895)
For casual users there exist a huge chasm between "everything just works" and "everything works except x, y, z and those you must open seperately with Chrome"....

I think many people will rather just use the 1 thing that does everything perfectly well, rather than switch back and forth between two browsers because one is slightly better "most of the time" but also completely unusable some of the time.

For me, I am thrilled to be able to make Ladybird my main browser eventually, and consume my streaming in other apps and browsers.

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by nurumaik on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @08:06AM (#45810577)
Well, they want me to view free movies if I use free browser, then
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by teddyh on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @09:17AM (#45811294)
You mean gratis movies using a libre browser. They are not the same concept.
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by samtheDamned on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @10:21PM (#45818615)
The term gratis is a really convenient way to put it!
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by teddyh on Wednesday November 05, 2025 @08:07AM (#45822434)
You can use “costless” if you like.
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by mistercheph on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @08:08AM (#45810601)
yeah, that's a problem for me like losing access to E! and TLC when getting rid of tv service box, legacy media platforms bye bye, hello copyright violation in sweet sweet high bitrate 4k
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by dorfsmay on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @08:56AM (#45811060)
Does Widevine CDM work on Firefox on Linux?

If so, why would Google allow this but not for other OSS browsers?

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by tmikaeld on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @09:28AM (#45811416)
It doesn't, this is also the reason that streamers like Nvidia Shield or Apple TV are the only two choices if you want to view 4K content at all.
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by skywal_l on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @09:42AM (#45811567)
I have been using firefox on linux for a little more than a decade now and haven't realize I was missing on anything so I guess it's probably not a real problem.
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by ac29 on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @11:18AM (#45812675)
Netflix et al work on Linux but are limited to 480p.
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by anthk on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @12:22PM (#45813488)
Without the propietary Widevine, maybe.
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by prmoustache on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @04:31PM (#45816120)
720p

Which is not a big deal when you are watching on a laptop screen.or via a projector.

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by SSLy on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @09:49AM (#45811637)
and yet ~some devices are constantly pwned, and pristine UHD WEB-DL's are being ripped automatically.
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by gucci-on-fleek on Wednesday November 05, 2025 @03:57AM (#45820893)
> Does Widevine CDM work on Firefox on Linux?

It does, but it's L3-only (software-based), not L1 (hardware-based) [0]. Streaming providers can then decide which content they'll let you access depending on the level. Speaking from experience, some providers work perfectly (full HD content with no issues), others only give you a really low-resolution stream, and others refuse to work entirely.

> If so, why would Google allow this but not for other OSS browsers?

When EME [1] was first released, Firefox had ~10% market share, and it would look pretty bad for Google to exclude another major browser maker. Smaller browsers don't have the political clout necessary to convince Google to give them access.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widevine#Architecture

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encrypted_Media_Extensions

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by Santosh83 on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @09:09AM (#45811212)
How is withholding Widevine CDM not anti-competitive behaviour?
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by martini333 on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @09:25AM (#45811395)
@EU
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by jeroenhd on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @10:00AM (#45811755)
You can build Firefox without Widevine if you don't like DRM. The browser itself will work just fine. A few specific websites won't, by design: they do not want to work on computers that will let you save the high-res video they serve to a file.

Without EME, we'd still be stuck with Silverlight or ActiveX DRM in these browsers. There are browsers without Widevine that stream just fine; they use FairPlay and PlayReady instead. The current situation is still a significant improvement over the days when "free" web browsers were still a thing.

This isn't a web browser problem, it's a video streaming problem. As it turns out, the vast majority of people care more about streaming Netflix than they do about software freedom.

The minority that wants a truly open browser can buy DVDs and Blurays, or pirate the content they want to stream.

If Ladybird is willing to agree to the right terms and sign the right paperwork, I'm sure they'd get Widevine support eventually, but obviously they wouldn't be able to publish the source code for any of it.

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by muyuu on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @10:06AM (#45811826)
> This is because of the lack of Widevine CDM, and the majority of people wanting to stream stuff using services like Tidal, Netflix and Spotify.

Well, there's a niche.

Personally I have zero interest in Netflix and Spotify and I don't even know what Tidal is.

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by gertop on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @11:31AM (#45812820)
Wanting to stream multimedia content from commercial streaming services is definitely not a "niche."
Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by muyuu on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @11:43AM (#45812990)
never claimed such thing

people who are not interested in these things, or can use separate systems for those things, are a viable niche for a pure-OSS distribution of Ladybird

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by morcus on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @11:07AM (#45812538)
I don't know the usage numbers so I might be way off, but with Smart TVs becoming a more common thing I can't remember the last time I tried to stream video on my computer.

Am I in the minority here? Do we have stats on what the breakdown of streaming traffic is by Mobile / TV / Desktop?

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by doubled112 on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @11:20AM (#45812692)
I'm another that tends to stream directly on a TV. Or a tablet.

It's very possible it's a workaround to the streaming on PC situation though.

Re:This Month in Ladybird – October 2025 by prmoustache on Tuesday November 04, 2025 @04:28PM (#45816099)
I don't have a TV and I believe this is the case for a larger fraction of the population than say, 20 years ago.

Also I believe a lot of households have a single TV and the rest of the household use a laptop to stream from anywhere in the house.