News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by baobun on Friday October 24, 2025 @07:52AM (#45693672)
Debian systemd maintainer Luca Boccassi has recently pushed through and dismissed several problematic and undesired breakages as "niche cases" in a way I personally find antithetical to what I expect from Debian.

I hope they have a change of mind in their approach.

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by mx7zysuj4xew on Friday October 24, 2025 @08:24AM (#45693924)
Luca Boccassi is such a complete and utter tool

You cannot just on a whim break something that had been established since the 1980s

There's never any discussion and the sheer arrogance of calling something "niche" just offends me

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by blueflow on Friday October 24, 2025 @09:07AM (#45694220)
This is usual systemd maintainer behavior. Poetterings "I don't consider it much of a problem" is legend: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by deaux on Friday October 24, 2025 @11:58AM (#45695938)
Interesting coincidence that both are @Microsoft.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by kragen on Friday October 24, 2025 @01:27PM (#45696943)
Do we really want Microsoft employees setting standards for Debian?
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Friday October 24, 2025 @04:16PM (#45698645)
It's complicated. Microsoft devotes resources to it and they can afford to do so but they only have that luxury from being a massive user trampling megacorp.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by kragen on Friday October 24, 2025 @04:34PM (#45698775)
If we could trust them to be devoting resources to it without any risk of abusing their access and power in the future, that would be sort of okay, but we can't.

Like, should Lockheed intentionally hire North Korean programmers at cheap rates because North Korea can afford to devote resources to helping Lockheed? The issue here is not primarily that North Korea is a massive citizen-trampling megastate. It's that Lockheed's interests are misaligned with North Korea's.

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by surajrmal on Friday October 24, 2025 @10:17PM (#45700888)
The goals of Debian is based on those who contribute to it. If Microsoft contributes, then it cannot be misaligned. That's what it means to be open. You may not like how that affects Debian, but to deny Microsoft the ability to participate would be equivalent to no longer being truly open.

Also individuals tend to prioritize work that benefits employer interest but that doesn't mean they can do things arbitrarily. It just shifts energy and focus towards certain areas. It's not a problem unless the company employs a large fraction of Debian maintainers which Microsoft doesn't.

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by dijit on Saturday October 25, 2025 @07:47AM (#45703100)
how does that work when Microsoft also makes a competing operating system?

If we think about it in logical terms, they could sabotage Debian by having “interests” that are suboptimal for their core demographic.

this is a similar to how euro-skeptics are the people who make the very unpopular laws inside the European Union, leading to all the negative press about the European Union. But they have to be listened to as they are democratically elected and it is a democracy.

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by kragen on Saturday October 25, 2025 @12:05PM (#45704898)
No, Debian has a mission of its own, and has always excluded candidates for Developership if they are opposed to Debian's mission. It has never been open in the way you are imagining.

https://www.debian.org/intro/philosophy

I think employing the project lead of systemd gives Microsoft a kind of influence that employing the packager of libjpeg-turbo wouldn't. Lennart is notorious for doing things arbitrarily, and what we are discussing here is that the Debian package maintainer for systemd is also doing things arbitrarily, and is also employed by Microsoft.

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by dijit on Friday October 24, 2025 @01:39PM (#45697087)
Apparently yes, since the parent to your comment has been flagged.

Personally I find an interesting observation, and microsoft contributing to linux in any way should be met with skepticism based on the entire last 30 years.

People are so quick to wipe away any wrongdoing from Microsoft as soon as they get thrown a bone, there's some interesting psychology here.

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by kragen on Friday October 24, 2025 @04:02PM (#45698530)
Also Microsoft is doing all kinds of abusive things to their users in Windows 11.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by ginko on Friday October 24, 2025 @08:08PM (#45700339)
No we don't.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by imetatroll on Saturday October 25, 2025 @03:12AM (#45701914)
I would say no because microsoft seems to have a magical ability to over-complicate systems, UIs, etc. Not to mention the fact that they were out to crush Linux not so many years ago (through proxies even!). Trusting them to make good, unix-like choices seems ill-informed.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by crest on Friday October 24, 2025 @09:15AM (#45694288)
The fool doesn't know how globbing works, but considers his uninformed guess good enough without testing it or reading (and understanding) the spec.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by kelnos on Friday October 24, 2025 @04:12PM (#45698609)
To be fair, he does know how globbing works: ".*" should include "." and ".." under normal globbing rules. The 'rm' command (presumably) has a special case in it to avoid traversing those in recursive mode because doing so would be a footgun.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by kps on Friday October 24, 2025 @05:13PM (#45699160)
To be fair, POSIX-compliant shells are allowed to exclude `.` and `..`, and some do, and POSIX says this may be required in the future.

https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/utilities/V...

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by withinboredom on Friday October 24, 2025 @07:05PM (#45699990)
Thankfully they updated it in the last 10 years … oh wait. Hmm. Seems this part of the standard is abandoned. We should create a new standard!
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by rpcope1 on Friday October 24, 2025 @03:09PM (#45698081)
I don't know of anyone that's been doing this for a while that hasn't been touched by systemd stupidity in some way. I still loathe the default behavior around the stub-resolver with unqualified names that "just worked" before Lennart decided he knew best.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by techcode on Friday October 24, 2025 @04:06PM (#45698566)
Depends on what you mean by this in "been doing this"?

While work now mandates "If you want to use Linux, it has to be Ubuntu" (and I complied). On personal front - about a decade ago I've moved from "vanilla" Gentoo to Calculate Linux - which was and still is 100% Gentoo.

These days difference is even smaller, but already 10+ years ago Calculate had sane profiles as well as all software packages as pre compiled binaries matching those profiles.

And although systemd is one of configurable USE keywords on Calculate/Gentoo - it's still not the default.

So there probably are some folks that haven't been touched by systemd at all... For now.

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by bigstrat2003 on Saturday October 25, 2025 @12:21AM (#45701336)
I've been a Linux sysadmin professionally for 10 years now. I have never had problems with systemd, nor do I consider it to be stupid. Obviously you don't have to like it, but I think you're painting with too broad of a brush.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by VladVladikoff on Saturday October 25, 2025 @08:03AM (#45703213)
Doesn’t that mean you started being a sysadmin after systemd was widely adopted? Most people who dislike it probably actively worked with Linux prior to systemd.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by ttapp on Friday October 24, 2025 @04:02PM (#45698532)
Yes, the guy is legendary in terms of maximum arrogance. He did impressive work early on designing a complex system, but gets defensive when that overengineered moloch runs into real-world problems. Systemd has accumulated lots of small hacks to make it more versatile, let's hope a better solution will be available one day.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by scroot on Friday October 24, 2025 @05:04PM (#45699068)
Whenever I'm using Guix I enjoy the simplicity of Shepherd [1]

[1] https://shepherding.services/manual/html_node/Introduction.h...

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by blueflow on Friday October 24, 2025 @09:52AM (#45694656)
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by typpilol on Saturday October 25, 2025 @03:40AM (#45702033)
That's actually insanely concerning that he essentially got mad and withheld the patch after
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by anankee on Saturday October 25, 2025 @08:35AM (#45703419)
Here's another fun thread, which resulted in removal of systemd-resolved from debian-testing, because of a spat between him and the technical committee: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1101532

Needless to say, such actions are ultimately hurting the users.

Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by __turbobrew__ on Saturday October 25, 2025 @01:33PM (#45705580)
Wow, I would instantly get fired if I acted that way at my job.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by Y_Y on Friday October 24, 2025 @03:33PM (#45698285)
There is Devuan, if you want to Debian but without systemd. I suspect though that "natively" non-systemd distros will be more consistent, personally I've found happiness with Guix.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by zh3 on Friday October 24, 2025 @03:48PM (#45698413)
Debian works fine without systemd (at least for now) though Devuan does indeed make like easier.
Re:Debian Technical Committee overrides systemd change by JPLeRouzic on Sunday October 26, 2025 @04:15AM (#45709986)
https://www.devuan.org

I've used it as my home computer for four years, and it seems to work fine.