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Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by electroly on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:09PM (#45367015)
Surface Pro 11 owner here. SQL Server won't install on ARM without hacks. Hyper-V does not support nested virtualization on ARM. Most games are broken with unplayable graphical glitches with Qualcomm video drivers, but fortunately not all. Most Windows recovery tools do not support ARM: no Media Creation Tool, no Installation Assistant, and recovery drives created on x64 machines aren't compatible [EDIT: see reply, I might be mistaken on this]. Creation of a recovery drive for a Snapdragon-based Surface (which you have to do from a working Snapdragon-based Surface) requires typing your serial code into a Microsoft website, then downloading a .zip of drivers that you manually overwrite onto the recovery media that Windows 11 creates for you.

Day-to-day, it's all fine, but I may be returning to x64 next time around. I'm not sure that I'm receiving an offsetting benefit for these downsides. Battery life isn't something that matters for me.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by goosedragons on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:23PM (#45367155)
You ABSOLUTELY do not have to create a recovery drive from a Snapdragon based device. I've done it multiple times from x64 Windows for both a SPX and 11.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by electroly on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:26PM (#45367191)
Hmm, thank you, that's good to know. Did you just apply the Snapdragon driver zip over the x64 recovery drive? It didn't work for me when my OS killed itself but I could easily have done something wrong in my panic over the machine not working. Since I only have the one Snapdragon device, I was making the assumption that it would have worked if I had a second one, but I didn't actually know that.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by goosedragons on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:58PM (#45367484)
Yes, just copy the zip over like the instructions say.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by electroly on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:59AM (#45374455)
Thanks again for this. Honestly, it may sway my choice on returning to x64 vs. sticking with ARM64 next time. The other issues are relatively minor and can be dealt with, but I didn't like thinking that I was one OS failure away from a bricked machine that I couldn't recover.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by brokencode on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:12PM (#45367050)
That’s brutal.. I wonder why the Apple Silicon transition seemed so much smoother in comparison.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by wmf on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @08:14PM (#45367625)
For one thing Apple dropped 32-bit before they transitioned to ARM while Windows compatibility goes back 30 years.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by rock_artist on Thursday September 25, 2025 @09:35AM (#45372476)
Actually, the Macho file format was multiarch by design (On Windows we're still stuck with Program Files (x86))..

Anyway, before dropping 32bit, they've dropped PowerPC.

Another consideration, Apple is the king of dylib, you're usually dynamically linking to the OS frameworks/libs. so they can actually plan their glue smarter so the frameworks would still work in native arch. (that was really important with PPC->Intel where you also had big endian...)

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by winocm on Thursday September 25, 2025 @02:38PM (#45377000)
You also get "Program Files (ARM)" (including a complementary "SysArm32") on older arm64 systems too.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by kwanbix on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:24PM (#45367173)
Because Apple controls verything vs Windows/Linux world where hundres (thouthands?) of OEM create things?
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by leidenfrost on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @11:01PM (#45368819)
I agree with you on the Windows side.

Linux is different. Decades of being tied to x86 made the OS way more coupled with the processor family than one might think.

Decades of bugfixes, optimizations and workarounds were made assuming a standard BIOS and ACPI standards.

Specially on the desktop side.

That, and the fact that SoC vendors are decades behind on driver quality. They remind me of the NDiswrapper era.

Also, a personal theory I have is that have unfair expectations with ARM Linux. Back then, when x86 Linux had similar compatibility problems, there was nothing to be compared with, so people just accepted that Linux was going to be a pain and that was it.

Now the bar is higher. People expect Linux to work the way it does in x86, in 2025.

And manpower in FOSS is always limited.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by daoistmonk on Thursday September 25, 2025 @01:26AM (#45369562)
my asahi linux m1 mac book air would disagree with you
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by BoredPositron on Thursday September 25, 2025 @02:31AM (#45369849)
You are talking out of your ass here. If you make bold statements like this you need to provide evidence. Linux works fine on many platforms...
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by close04 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:58AM (#45370343)
> Decades of being tied to x86

This doesn't pass the smell test when Linux powers so many smart or integrated devices and IoT on architectures like ARM, MIPS, Xtensa, and has done so for decades.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by StopDisinfo910 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:31AM (#45371615)
Linux runs perfectly on MIPS, Power, Sparc, obviously ARM - cue the millions of phone running Linux today, RiscV, and at least a dozen other architectures with little to no user. It's absolutely not tied to x86.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by viraptor on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:30PM (#45367222)
Did it? From that list: SQL server doesn't work on Mac and there's no Apple equivalent, virtualisation is built into the system so that kind of worked but with restrictions, games barely exist Mac so a few that cared did the ports but it's still minimal. There's basically no installation media for Macs in the same way as windows in general.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by electroly on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:37PM (#45367285)
Out of the gate, Apple silicon lacked nested virtualization, too. They added it in the M3 chip and macOS 15. Macs have different needs than Windows though; I think it's less of a big deal there. On Windows we need it for running WSL2 inside a VM.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by pjmlp on Thursday September 25, 2025 @01:22AM (#45369549)
On Windows nested virtualization already existed before WSL, all the kernel and device drivers security features introduced on Windows 10, and made always enabled on Windows 11, require running Hyper-V, which is a type 1 hypervisor.

So it is rather easy having to deal with nested virtualization, even those of us that seldom use WSL.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by electroly on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:23AM (#45373845)
Yes, nested virtualization has existed for a long time... on Intel. On Windows, it is not supported on ARM. For a long time it wasn't even supported on AMD! They added AMD nested virtualization support in Windows Server 2022!

Note that when the Windows host is invisibly running under Hyper-V, your other Hyper-V VMs are its "siblings" and not nested children. You're not using nested virtualization in that situation. It's only when running a Hyper-V VM inside another Hyper-V VM. WSL2 is a Hyper-V VM, so if you want to run WSL2 inside a Windows Hyper-V VM which is inside your Windows host, it ends up needing to nest.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by fulafel on Thursday September 25, 2025 @01:27AM (#45369565)
I'd guess the M3 features aren't required for nested virtualization, and it was more of a sw design decision to only add the support when some helpful hardware features were shipped too. Eg here's nested virtualization support for ARM on Linux in 2017: https://lwn.net/Articles/728193/
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by justincormack on Thursday September 25, 2025 @05:15AM (#45370763)
Nested virt does need hardware support to implement efficiently and securely. The Apple chips added that over time, eg M2 actually had somewhat workable support but still incomplete and hacky https://lwn.net/Articles/928426/ - the GIC (interrupt controller) was a mess to virtualise in older versions, which is different from the instruction set of the CPU.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by HumanOstrich on Thursday September 25, 2025 @10:21AM (#45372940)
Nested virtualization is not required for WSL2 or Hyper-V VMs. It's only required if you want to run VMs from within WSL2 (Windows 11 only) or Hyper-V VMs within Hyper-V VMs.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by electroly on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:09AM (#45373609)
Yeah, I understand this and said it correctly in my post. We need nested virtualization to run WSL2 inside a VM: this is a Linux VM inside a Windows VM inside a Windows host. WSL2 is already a VM, so if you want to run that inside a VM, it requires nested virtualization. Nested virtualization is one of those features that people don't know about unless they need it, and they find out for the first time when they get an error message from Hyper-V. If you have a development VM on a system without nested virtualization, you're stuck with WSL1 inside that VM, or using a "sibling" Linux VM that you set up manually (the latter was my actual solution to this issue).
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by unconed on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:43PM (#45367339)
Apple already went through this before with PowerPC -> x86. They had universal binaries, Rosetta, etc. to build off of. And they got to do it with their own hardware, which includes some special instructions intended to help with emulation.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by musicale on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:37AM (#45369318)
> Apple already went through this before with PowerPC -> x86

Not to mention 68K -> PowerPC.

Rhapsody supported x86, and I think during the PowerPC era Apple kept creating x86 builds of OS X just in case. This may have helped to keep things like byte order dependencies from creeping in.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by bitwize on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:15PM (#45367087)
Because it was handled by the only tech company left that actually cares about the end user. Not exactly a mystery.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by okanat on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @07:31PM (#45367230)
Having a narrow product line helped Apple a lot. Similarly being able to deprecate things faster than business-oriented Microsoft. Apple also controls silicon implementation. So they could design hardware features that enabled low to zero overhead x86 emulation. All in all Rosetta 2 was a pretty good implementation.

Microsoft is trying to retain binary compatibility across architectures with ARM64EC stuff which is intriguing and horrifying. They, however, didn't put any effort into ensuring Qualcomm is implementing the hardware side well. Unlike Apple, Qualcomm has no experience in making good desktop systems and it shows.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by andsoitis on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:07AM (#45369179)
> Apple also controls silicon implementation.

People sometimes say that as if came without foresight or cost or other complexities in their business.

No, in the end they are hyper strategic and it pays off.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by okanat on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:48PM (#45375268)
I didn't say otherwise. They probably realized they can pull a complete desktop CPU design off at the latest with iPad, probably earlier. They were probably not happy using Intel chips and their business strategy has always been controlling and limiting HW capabilities as much as possible.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by cmxch on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @08:00PM (#45367509)
Given how Apple makes it maintenance hostile and secures against their end customers, no.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by bdcravens on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @11:27PM (#45368979)
The first few months were a little tricky depending on what software you needed, but it did smooth out pretty quickly.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by someNameIG on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @11:29PM (#45368994)
Every Mac transitions to ARM, only a very small amount of Windows PCs are running ARM. SO right now there's not an large user base to incentivise software to be written for it.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by chithanh on Thursday September 25, 2025 @02:39AM (#45369890)
You are right that Windows on ARM cannot be called a success. But if you make Windows/macOS cross platform software then your software needs to be written for ARM anyway.

So if you support macOS/x86, macos/ARM, and Windows/x86, then the additional work to add Windows/ARM is rather small, unless you do low-level stuff (I remember Fortnite WoA port taking almost a year from announcement to release due to anticheat).

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by magic_hamster on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:39AM (#45369336)
Apple had a great translation layer (Rosetta) that allows you to run x64 code, and it's very fast. However, Apple being Apple, they are going to discontinue this feature in 2026, that's when we'll see some Apple users really struggling to go fully arm, or just ditch their MacBook. I know if Apple does follow through with killing Rosetta, I'll do the latter.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by menaerus on Thursday September 25, 2025 @01:41AM (#45369625)
It's a transpiler that takes the x86-64 binary assembly and spits out the aarch64 assembly only on the first run AFAIK. This is then cached on storage for consecutive runs.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by timschmidt on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:22AM (#45370120)
Apple also implemented x86 memory semantics for aarch64 to allow for simpler translation and faster execution.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by menaerus on Thursday September 25, 2025 @08:13AM (#45371899)
In HW?
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by antonvs on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:10AM (#45373621)
Not OP, but I don’t think so. Rosetta inserts ARM barrier instructions in its generated code to emulate x86 memory ordering.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by timschmidt on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:03PM (#45374538)
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by Findecanor on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:12AM (#45373659)
Apple silicon also has special hardware support for x86-64's "TSO" memory order (important for multithreaded code) and half-carry status flag.

BTW. A more common term for what Rosetta does is "binary translation". A "transpiler" typically compiles from one high-level language to another, never touching machine code.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by ndiddy on Thursday September 25, 2025 @09:37AM (#45372497)
One reason is that Apple sold subsidized devkits to developers starting around 6 months before Apple Silicon launched, while the X Elite devkit was not subsidized, came with Windows 11 Home (meaning that you had to pay another $100 to upgrade to Pro if you were an actual professional developer who needed to join the computer to your work domain), and didn't ship until after months after X Elite laptops started shipping. As a result, when the X Elite launched basically everything had to run under emulation.

I think another reason is Apple's control over the platform vs Microsoft's. Apple has the ability to say "we're not going to make any more x86 computers, you're gonna have to port your software to ARM", while Microsoft doesn't have that ability. This means that Snapdragon has to compete against Intel/AMD on its own merits. A couple months after X Elite launched, Intel started shipping laptops with the Lunar Lake architecture. This low-power x86 architecture managed to beat X Elite on battery life and thermals without having to deal with x86 emulation or poor driver support. Of course it didn't solve Intel's problems (especially since it's fabricated at TSMC rather than by Intel), but it demonstrated that you could get comparable battery life without having to switch architectures, which took a lot of wind out of X Elite's sails.

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by throw37272835 on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @09:46PM (#45368372)
Does Remote Desktop into the Surface work well?

When I'm home, I often just remote desktop into my laptop.

I'm wondering if remoting into ARM Windows is as good?

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by mcbridematt on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @10:48PM (#45368758)
I have a similar Windows Arm64 machine (Lenovo "IdeaPad 5 Slim"), RDP into it works OK.

There is one issue I ran into that I haven't on my (self-built) Windows desktops: when Windows Hello (fingerprint lock) is enabled, and neither machine is on a Windows domain, the RDP client will just refuse to authenticate.

I had to use a trick to "cache" the password on the "server" end first, see https://superuser.com/questions/1715525/how-to-login-windows...

Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by dboreham on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @11:26PM (#45368973)
Yes everything in user space works as expected. Note that NT has supported non-x86 processors since 1992.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by steve1977 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @04:21AM (#45370475)
According to some accounts, the name NT even was a reference to the Intel i860, which was the original target processor.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by evanjrowley on Wednesday September 24, 2025 @11:41PM (#45369055)
On the bright side, there's a good chance that Windows on ARM is not well supported by malware. There's a situation where you benefit from things being broken.
Re:Snapdragon X2 Elite ARM Laptop CPU by hollandheese on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:49AM (#45374304)
>Creation of a recovery drive for a Snapdragon-based Surface (which you have to do from a working Snapdragon-based Surface) requires typing your serial code into a Microsoft website, then downloading a .zip of drivers that you manually overwrite onto the recovery media that Windows 11 creates for you.

That's just creation of a recovery drive for anything that Microsoft itself makes. It's the same process for the Intel Surface devices too.

>no Media Creation Tool

Why would anyone care about that? Most actively avoid Microsoft's media creation tool and use Rufus instead.