I don't know what your frame of reference is, but BART is above average for US public transit payment systems.

I've lived in the San Francisco Bay Area CA, Portland OR, and Philadelphia PA over the last 10 years. All of those metros have comparable public transit payment systems with auto-loading special use cards and are at various stages of adopting support for tap to pay. Honestly, within the US I can only think of NYC as having a better payment system as they were first movers on tap-to-pay adoption and it's basically fully adopted.

Internationally I think there is a larger range of experiences. I don't travel enough to properly gauge it, but I was in Paris in the last year and I don't think public transit payment was better. Still had to acquire specialized fare cards and navigate different payment systems between RATP and RER. Honestly, SF Bay comes out slightly ahead of Paris if only because Clipper is unified between various transit options (BART, Bus, Ferry, CalTrain) IMO.

> I don't know what your frame of reference is, but BART is above average for US public transit payment systems.

That doesn't change anything in the comment you're replying to. Just because it's above average for the USA, does not mean it isn't also ancient by global standards.

And yet I included a favorable international comparison as well.

> Honestly, within the US I can only think of NYC as having a better payment system as they were first movers on tap-to-pay adoption and it's basically fully adopted.

Chicago is pretty good too. IIRC they also have tap-to-pay. In fact, I think they had it before NYC

Chicago has had tap to pay for as long as one lived here (11 years now). I think it predates me having any tap to pay credit card or phone lol.

Frame of reference is the world which is reasonable given the US status in the world.

Hong Kong, China, Taiwan, Dubai, Japan, UK. The USA is supposed to be among the top in terms of technology but infra is just garbage. The BART is pathetic. I don't know why you defend it with pride. Attack it, because if you hate it and you are vocal about it, things are more likely to change.

I'm sick of people defending something that's shit because of pride. It's garbage.

BART now does actually have tap-to-pay, but it's very recent: https://www.kqed.org/news/12052690/bart-fares-2025-credit-ca...

It's also had phone based clipper card support for years now. Credit card open loop systems are pretty slow compared to a well implemented closed loop transit system like they have with suica in japan, but BART's clipper is probably about as slow in comparison

Clipper (nee TransLink) is a regional system, not a BART specific one. In fact BART was one of the last Clipper hold outs because they were hell bent on having their own BART purse. Time to authorize is really down to which readers you interact with. The current BART turnstiles+readers are pretty slow.

We watched this happen again in New York where OMNY was supposed to be the region-wide fare system, but the Port Authority decided not to use it, all the bus systems decided not to use it, and the MTA's railroads decided not to use it. It is a mild disaster. (Hilariously, the Port Authority runs two rail system, PATH and the JFK Airtrain. The Airtrain does take OMNY.)

Does Caltrain still count entering the BART station at Milbrae as not tapping off? That was always my favorite quirk of the Clipper system.

(For those not familiar... Caltrain is a tap on / tap off "proof of payment" system. You're charged the full fare when you tap on, and refunded what you didn't use when you tap off. BART and Caltrain share a platform at Milbrae. You can get off Caltrain and be right at the gate to get into BART by tapping your Clipper card. Well. This taps you into BART, but doesn't tap you off of Caltrain. To get your refund, you had to know this was a thing and go find a fare validator before tapping on to BART. You also end up being inside Caltrain's proof of payment required area without proof of payment while you walk along the platform from Caltrain's fare validator to BART's entry turnstile. I am probably the only person to ever care about this, but...)

  Does Caltrain still count entering the BART station at Milbrae as not tapping off?

Couldn't say. When I took Caltrain regularly I gave up on the BART/Caltrain transfer pretty quickly.

In my day, that transfer was a privately owned blue bus called the Jitney.

I can tap my credit card on any public transit system in Southern Ontario (where Toronto/Waterloo are located).

I can still use an auto-loading special use card if I want. I do that so I can have a free transfer between different transit systems during my commute.

  I can only think of NYC as having a better payment system as they were
  first movers on tap-to-pay adoption and it's basically fully adopted.

Portland's TriMet had tap-to-pay well before New York.

  I was in Paris in the last year and I don't think public transit
  payment was better.

The multi-stage turnstiles at the RER stations… ugh.

When I lived in Portland you technically _could_ pay TTP, but I don't quite count it because Hop pass accrual meant if you used TriMet regularly you needed a Hop card anyway. Just out of curiosity I checked around and it looks like they extended that functionality to regular bank cards around two years ago [1]. Which is awesome as now the only reason to get a Hop pass is for people that qualify for reduced fares or are unbanked (which makes sense).

> The multi-stage turnstiles at the RER stations… ugh.

Ah yes, had one of many, "I look like the tourist I am," moments navigating those visiting the Versailles.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Portland/comments/1awweix/trimet_ex...

Some time ~11 years ago, I needed to take a bus trip in SF. There was nowhere nearby to reload a Clipper card, so I was happy when I found out I could do it online. I was less happy when the web site said it would take 24-48 hours for the newly-loaded funds to be available on my Clipper card.

I find that a little hard to believe given that you can/could service Clipper cards at any Walgreens and a bunch of other retailers (e.g. pharmacies and hardware stores).

I was just North of Golden Gate Park. The nearest bus stop was 1 minute away. I wanted to take a 20 minute bus ride. The nearest Walgreens was 30 mins walk away (Geary and 42nd/43rd). The nearest street with shops was 12 mins walk away. I don't know whether any of those shops offered Clipper card top-up.

Still the way it is. Clipper is a multi-agency cooperative. It sucks but the fact that it works at all is a real triumph....

FWIW Septa has had tap-to-pay working for about 2 years now (so, 2 years longer than what BART just rolled out like last week). But barely a decade ago they (septa) were still using physical tokens!

When I moved to the bay area, I thought it was so rad I could use the clipper card for vta + bart + caltrain + muni + ferry all in one.

I remember first moving to Philly and getting a SEPTA Key and thinking, "This is dumb, it's literally just a MasterCard. Why can't I use my credit card like NY?" Then a few years later they rolled out support for other bank cards and I immediately took my SEPTA Key out of my wallet.

It’s almost like all of the Bay Area tech companies are too busy working on Blockchain / shitcoins, MetaVerse, or hyper optimization of advertising…

Also worth throwing some blame at VCs who are chasing hype cycles instead of investing in boring companies that would actually improve quality of life for the people around them.

BART is unique and doesn't share much in the way of infrastructure with any other public transit system. You can't build a scalable startup targeting BART because you'd have a maximum of one customer.

The Boring Company has attempted to develop tunnel boring technology which theoretically could someday allow for cheaper expansion of all subway and light rail systems. Although in practice they haven't accomplished much and their existing projects aren't even used for rail transit.

https://www.boringcompany.com/

There are also several eVTOL startups aiming to improve quality of life through rapid point-to-point transportation. But I doubt they'll succeed on any widespread basis due to battery and noise limitations.

There isn't much different about bart. Slightly wider wheel spacing and such are things anyone making trains can handle.

the real problem is thinking they are different or that they need to innovate. Trains are common and they need not innovation but minor improvements over time.

I've heard that makes procurement way more difficult, you can't just order a train car in the standard gauge from many manufacturers. It's like big and tall sizing, yes, any place can make it, but there just isn't that large volume to create a liquid market.

But is this a problem that can account of the day-to-day difficulties of managing and using BART? Yes, procuring new train cars is more difficult (and likely more expensive), but BART has lots of other problems to tackle.

The problem isn't just the rolling stock. Everything in BART is at least somewhat custom including control systems and software. Very little can be shared with public transit systems in other metro areas so there are no economies of scale. Thus BART has to do a lot in house or depend on a limited set of specialized vendors at great expense.

If you had to buy a special car to be allowed to drive on Bay Area roads because they weren't the same as the roads in Chicago or Boston then a Honda Civic would cost $1M.

  then a Honda Civic would cost $1M.

For $1M you could build a single San Francisco Cable Car. Plus it's built locally.

A cable car is a lot simpler than a civic - the complex parts are in the engine house elsewhere. the cable car is bigger but it has no engine, transmission and other such parts

  There isn't much different about bart.

Basically everything on BART is unique to BART. Odd loading gauge. Odd track gauge. Lightweight aluminum chassis so none of the aerial infrastructure is designed to carry a heavier, more traditional car. Multi-part wheels with aluminum hubs to make extra noise. Non-standard traction voltage so BART struggled mightily to find replacement thyristors for the old cars. BART still struggles to keep their electric substations running. The original signaling system makes some sense, but trying to replace it with another NIH product in the 90s made zero sense. The original trains had glass with compound curves and BART could not find a vendor who could reliably recreate them. The current trains indicate ADA seating with the color green, reserving blue for the regular seats.

If it can be made differently or done differently BART will absolutely try to do so.

  the real problem is thinking they are different or that they need to innovate. 

Yep NIH is a huge problem for BART.

Or intentionally designed by the original contractors for lock-in, like an Apple product or a John Deere tractor.

> BART is unique and doesn't share much in the way of infrastructure with any other public transit system. You can't build a scalable startup targeting BART because you'd have a maximum of one customer.

The notion of a startup running BART is fucking horrifying.

I didn't read the comment criticizing VC's for not investing in BART or a company to make BART better, I read it as a criticism of the American system for letting things like VC's and other rich entities/people lock up unconscionable amounts of wealth for either hoarding or funding stupid shit as opposed to make sure our country still functions and people can eat.

And please just spare me the capitalist apologia. I get it, people wanna be rich. On balance I don't give a shit, get as rich as you can, just as long as it doesn't require millions of people to suffer so you can. If you having objectively, factually, more than anyone needs to be happy requires a ton of people to go without necessities, IMO, that is not a right you should have, and I don't care how communist that makes me.

You could take 90% of Bezos', Musk's, or Gates' wealth and they would still never have to work again and live in exceptional luxury. There is no goddamn reason in the world to let them keep it while we have people starving.

Public infrastructure is requested and funded by the government, not voluntarily done by companies that happen to base themselves nearby. Sounds more of an issue of government.

This is government procurement being broken not the companies themselves.

The problem with the US is it's been taken over by finance capitalists, and lets be honest, VC's are finance capitalists. And finance capitalists are essentially slumlords.

Their first reflex when it comes to paying for infrastructure and maintenance is to think what that'll do to their short term CAP rates. And then they get angry.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45142101 and marked it off topic.

How did you pay? I made a Clipper account that I fill up with my credit card and tap my phone to pay...

Which is still shockingly outdated compared to e.g. London, where I just use my tap to pay method of choice on entry and exit, done.

Oooh, even behind e.g London, the first city in the world to offer tap and pay with bank cards!

They introduced tap-to-pay with your credit card a few weeks ago.

I was going to say the same thing. I saw this and I don't even ride it regularly anymore.

I mean it auto fills/pays from my card. It's just one extra step at setup. I agree it would be nice to just take my card at the rail, but "Shockingly outdated" seems a bit dramatic lol. It's certainly not comparable to "70s USSR" idk where that came from

You can do that on BART as well.

(which we've had to some extent for thirteen years now)

It's also the slowest possible system, there are benefits for a closed loop system: https://atadistance.net/2020/06/13/transit-gate-evolution-wh...

I have a Clipper Card on my Android phone and pay for BART and SF Muni that way.

BART does now accept credit cards at the turnstiles now (I think this started 2 years ago). Agreed that it took a long while to get there, much much longer than in other places.

Personally I prefer the Clipper method, as it's generally faster to scan than a contactless credit card payment (that's going to always be the case for closed-loop payment system). I also like that BART (and Muni, Caltrain, etc.) will pay less to Visa/Mastercard/whomever in transaction fees if I use my Clipper card and periodically top it up (which, as I have my Clipper card on my phone, happens automatically if the balance ever falls below $10). Credit card tap-to-pay is a nice convenience for out-of-town visitors and for locals who rarely use transit and don't have Clipper (or who use a physical Clipper card but forgot it at home), but I don't think it's a great way to pay for transit day-to-day.

Now available on BART and coming to other Bay Area transit agencies.

https://www.clippercard.com/ClipperWeb/contactless-payments....

So tokens and kopeks? Because there were no mag stripe systems in 1970s.

> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/174311087766

I remember when I was in college in the early 2010s finding it amusing that SEPTA still used tokens in Philadelphia. On a whim I looked it up, and apparently they did finally stop using them, but only in 2024.

The mag stripe 1960s technology worked much better than the new one, I'm sorry to report.

I'm sorry to report that you're looking at that tech through rose-tinted glasses. I remember electronic systems that would routinely fail to properly scan the mag stripes. I remember all the people working retail who had special tricks to try to get a card to scan, which would help maybe 25% of the time. I remember cards becoming demagnetized for random reasons and becoming useless. I remember when merchants would have to take a physical carbon imprint of the card, and would have no idea if the card was even real until the paper was processed, days or weeks later.

We are talking specifically about the BART fare gates, which worked perfectly for 50 years.

I mean the answer is in the question--why are the self-driving cars (largely funded by billion-dollar private companies and VC) available in the same city as this anarchic public transit system (funded by largely by regional taxes and ridership fees)

I just use my phone to pay for BART?

The Moscow metro system is actually supposed to be pretty good.

Being built in 1960s-1970s it has proper ventilation. Unlike older systems, like in Boston, where you are forced to breathe in brake dust.