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Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by threetonesun on Monday June 30, 2025 @08:13AM (#44422304)
Tire sensors and backup cameras are dirt cheap though. Maybe lane warning and collision avoidance are a bit more but they’re both 10+ year old technology, they can’t cost that much. Also all of these things are good. Redoing the steering wheel or using 22” wheels or adding heating for each individual ass cheek… that I don’t need, and it adds to the cost.
Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by dgfitz on Monday June 30, 2025 @08:57AM (#44422718)
You can't replace a tire sensor without getting it coded. Complete bullshit.
Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by kube-system on Monday June 30, 2025 @09:56AM (#44423335)
A car on a busy highway needs to know which sensors belong to itself. Some cars are a PITA to program, but many can be done with cheap tools.
Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by dgfitz on Monday June 30, 2025 @10:07AM (#44423477)
Either you can see the tire is low visually, or when you hear a thump-thump-thump you know you blew a tire.

I do not agree with your point. I do understand it, don't agree.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by bumby on Monday June 30, 2025 @10:49AM (#44424064)
TPMS essentially automates people checking their tires because the reality is most people do not do a walk around on their car before driving.

In theory, we could use a dipstick in our fuel tank but most of us prefer an automated gage.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by kube-system on Monday June 30, 2025 @06:22PM (#44428560)
Even if you do a walk around, under-inflated tires are typically not distinguishable from normally inflated tires. Especially on today's cars with shorter and stiffer sidewalls.

I had a rental Mercedes with a leak in a tire recently... a tire was at something like 15psi but looked visually the same as the other tires. I absolutely do a walk around on all of my rentals and take pictures, but I would have had no clue if it weren't for TPMS. I would have driven it until it failed.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by dgfitz on Saturday July 05, 2025 @08:28AM (#44472334)
It had already failed. You had run-flats on the car. They’re still visually apparent.
Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by dghlsakjg on Monday June 30, 2025 @01:12PM (#44425656)
Tires can have low enough pressure to affect vehicle handling without being visually low, you simply cannot measure tire pressure visually. That's why even tire shop workers use a gauge instead of eyeballing it.
Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by Dylan16807 on Monday June 30, 2025 @04:01PM (#44427232)
> A car on a busy highway needs to know which sensors belong to itself.

A sensor you were paired to disappears. Now a new sensor is showing up, and it sticks with you for an entire hour.

Sounds pretty easy for a computer to figure that puzzle out.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by kube-system on Monday June 30, 2025 @05:22PM (#44428027)
There are countless scenarios where cars are operated in close proximity for over an hour, like rural highway traffic or metro corridor traffic.

Every time a TPMS battery dies in these circumstances, the vehicle shouldn't pair with random TPMS sensors around it. Especially when we're talking about logic of a regulated safety system. It's a little better that it is deterministic, and follows an explicit pairing process.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by Dylan16807 on Monday June 30, 2025 @05:36PM (#44428154)
> rural highway traffic

How big is the range on one of these?

> Every time a TPMS battery dies in these circumstances, the vehicle shouldn't pair with random TPMS sensors around it.

Random sensors around it that aren't already paired to their own car.

Also it could wait for you to complete an entire trip or two.

> Especially when we're talking about logic of a regulated safety system.

"Safety" in the sense that the little warning light usually gets you to do something about it eventually? Is this data going into anything where the correctness is a big deal?

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by kube-system on Monday June 30, 2025 @06:10PM (#44428457)
> How big is the range on one of these?

As always with RF propagation, it depends. They're frequently in the 315Mhz band, so should be roughly similar to garage door openers, remote controls, etc.

> Random sensors around it that aren't already paired to their own car.

There's no handshake -- TPMS sensors are generally unencrypted broadcast devices. A car will see a lot of sensors. (and you can set up an antenna and track cars driving down your street) The "pairing" is simply the vehicle remembering which ones is theirs.

> Also it could wait for you to complete an entire trip or two.

It could. Now add the complication of: spare tires. And also, some but not all vehicles store the positionality of the sensor, so they can tell you which tire is low.

But if you're going to give the system so much hysteresis, you might as well just save the money and use the ABS-sensor based system that other vehicles use. These don't require any additional sensors or programming, but they are slower to react and don't provide pressure readings. The reason automakers use direct sensor systems is to provide a more direct and immediate reading.

> "Safety" in the sense that the little warning light usually gets you to do something about it eventually? Is this data going into anything where the correctness is a big deal?

It is a big enough deal that the reason many cars have them is to comply with the legal requirement that they have them. Before the light (and better cars have textual warnings), you'd have to manually check your tire pressure to identify an underinflated tire, leading to many people driving on them for extended periods of time and experiencing rapid unscheduled failures.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by Loudergood on Monday June 30, 2025 @11:17AM (#44424391)
The tool is like $10.
Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by vkou on Monday June 30, 2025 @04:18PM (#44427382)
The tool is $10, the two minute walkaround of undoing your pressure caps, measuring the pressure, and redoing them, every trip, adds ~1000 minutes/year.

... Or you could just have the manufacturer spend $30 to embed this into the car's dash.

For similar reasons, your car also comes with a fuel gauge, and doesn't require hand-cranking to start.

If you really want car prices to come down, have the manufacturers fire most of their workers and replace them with robots (I'm not sure if the robots will make for a good consumer base, but that's someone else' problem.)

Look at a BYD car factory versus any one ran by the American auto dinosaurs, and that's where you'll find the price delta.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by threetonesun on Monday June 30, 2025 @09:34AM (#44423104)
I agree this is bullshit, although when I swapped from Summer to Winter tires I fixed this by putting tape over the sensor light in the Winter.
Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by BanterTrouble on Monday June 30, 2025 @09:01AM (#44422768)
Anything that takes control away from me I am not interested in. I am both legally and financially liable for anything the car does. I am also not trusting my life to some poorly maintained software written by someone in another country.
Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by LUmBULtERA on Monday June 30, 2025 @09:27AM (#44423040)
Being legally and financially liable doesn't bring back the kid you ran over because you couldn't see them with your mirrors or turning your head...
Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by BanterTrouble on Monday June 30, 2025 @09:38AM (#44423140)
Mandating driving aids (that often don't work properly) won't fix this problem either.

What does increase safety is better driver training. This has be ubiquitously proven BTW.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by LUmBULtERA on Monday June 30, 2025 @09:45AM (#44423204)
You've had backup cameras often fail? You must be very unlucky. After many years of driving and riding in cars with backup cameras, I have never seen one not work, let alone "often" not work.

Where is the ubiquitously proven support for the assertion that backup cameras don't increase safety?

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by BanterTrouble on Monday June 30, 2025 @10:10AM (#44423517)
Deliberately re-framing an argument to force me to accept a conclusion, while misinterpreting what I said is disingenuous.

I've read several of your replies towards me and I can tell that you either unable or unwilling see my point of view. So there is no point in having a discussion with you.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by Dylan16807 on Monday June 30, 2025 @04:10PM (#44427313)
If you want to use "often don't work properly" as an argument, then people are allowed to challenge that argument.

I guess they shouldn't have assumed you were speaking from experience, but I don't think that's a big deal. That's not forcing you to accept any conclusion. If it happens "often" you should have examples and/or data. If you don't then maybe you should reconsider if it actually is "often".

And they directly asked for data that it doesn't increase safety.

That's not unwillingness to see your point of view. If you provide quality evidence, you can win them over.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by bumby on Monday June 30, 2025 @10:52AM (#44424092)
Do you drive a fuel injected car or do you prefer the “control” of adjusting your carburetor?

Not being snarky, just pointing out we’re often guilty of picking and choosing rather than applying first principles.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by BanterTrouble on Monday June 30, 2025 @12:36PM (#44425225)
That don't directly take control away from me.

I am specifically talking about things that take over control of the vehicle.

I've had lane assist fight me when trying to move lanes. I apparently wasn't turning the wheel enough and it thought I was drifting (I wasn't).

I've had another hire car refuse to move backwards without me putting it into reverse. It had anti-rollback measures. I didn't know what was going on. All my other cars would rollback (I drive manuals). Now I know technically you shouldn't coast backwards but it was maybe a foot.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by Sohcahtoa82 on Monday June 30, 2025 @03:23PM (#44426907)
> I've had lane assist fight me when trying to move lanes. I apparently wasn't turning the wheel enough and it thought I was drifting (I wasn't).

You're telling on yourself here. Use your turn signal and lane assist won't fight you.

Re:Why the $25,000 car is going extinct by bumby on Monday June 30, 2025 @01:19PM (#44425747)
>That don't directly take control away from me.

Sure it does. You can tune it to get better performance or fuel economy. (Tbf, you can do the same by fuel mapping your injectors, but it would probably void any warranty).

What you seem to be alluding to is that the automated features give you different performance than what you were expecting and you have little recourse. The same could be said for your fuel injectors.