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Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by jauntywundrkind on Sunday June 15, 2025 @10:08PM (#44286148)
The application to drones seems most clear: beam drones some extra power as needed. Or continually!

I wonder how big that receiving apparatus is. Whether the receiver is gimballed, or whether the drone itself has to fly a heading to aim at the sender: TBD.

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by larodi on Monday June 16, 2025 @02:28AM (#44287091)
And have a great opportunity to drill some holes in birds heads.

Sorry I really fail to recognise how beaming 1kw of excited particles is a safe thing to do just like this…

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by ChocolateGod on Monday June 16, 2025 @03:00AM (#44287235)
It must not be safe to be out in the sun then.
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by _Algernon_ on Monday June 16, 2025 @03:38AM (#44287399)
Last time I forgot sunscreen at a UV index of 10 my skin started peeling of after half an hour so...
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by ben_w on Monday June 16, 2025 @07:34AM (#44288603)
Density (and wavelength), rather than total power, is important.

Sun's 1kW/m^2, and even then you shouldn't look directly at it, and being out in it all day without protection leads to sunburn.

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by nkrisc on Monday June 16, 2025 @08:40AM (#44288991)
It’s not, for an extended period of time. Now imagine it was collimated rather than diffuse.
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by kurble on Monday June 16, 2025 @09:29AM (#44289327)
That's the thing, sunlight is collimated. It only gets diffuse once it reflects of a diffuse surface.
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by nkrisc on Monday June 16, 2025 @10:36AM (#44289971)
Fair enough, poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was concentrated further (in terms of energy per area) than the typical concentration received at the surface of the Earth.
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by vikramkr on Monday June 16, 2025 @10:54AM (#44290177)
So there's this thing called sunburn...
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by fleischhauf on Monday June 16, 2025 @10:00AM (#44289563)
if you are the military and you are using drones to win a war, I don't think birds are your primary concern tho
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by cap11235 on Monday June 16, 2025 @11:25AM (#44290498)
That's basically an ad that appears to defense companies. Raytheon engineers love going "pew pew motherfucker".
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by mensetmanusman on Monday June 16, 2025 @04:27PM (#44293095)
Hand egg enthusiasts also love…
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by larodi on Monday June 16, 2025 @04:32PM (#44293135)
sure in that case everything goes, and is curious why has it not yet been done with... drones routing the laser or repeaters reinforcing it with every loop.

i can't recall a scifi story promoting such system either.

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by Traubenfuchs on Monday June 16, 2025 @03:27AM (#44287344)
How about drones with a solar panel case? Would require a sunny day to work at all though.

Tiny nuclear reactor?

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by Traubenfuchs on Monday June 16, 2025 @03:27AM (#44287345)
How about drones with a solar panel case? Would require a sunny day to work at all though.

Tiny nuclear reactor?

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by ben_w on Monday June 16, 2025 @07:40AM (#44288642)
On the scale that useful nuclear reactors operate, a "tiny nuclear reactor" is the size of a shipping container.

Even a tiny RTG is in the same range as a dumbbell.

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by Traubenfuchs on Monday June 16, 2025 @08:07AM (#44288786)
While not reactors, how about nuclear batteries without heavy shielding?
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by ben_w on Monday June 16, 2025 @08:22AM (#44288881)
Nuclear batteries are a superset of RTGs.

There are other kinds of nuclear battery, but the ones I've heard of outside labs, are extremely low power betavoltaics.

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by cap11235 on Monday June 16, 2025 @10:58AM (#44290229)
The biggest issue for weight is that you are using trans-uranic materials. By their fundamental nature, they are heavy as fuck.
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by ben_w on Monday June 16, 2025 @01:17PM (#44291434)
Nope.

Betavolatics can be just about anything that emits an electron. Could be tritium. Low power due to long half life and low decay energy, but not because it is low-Z.

RTGs can be anything that gets hot from its own radiation. Loads of things with a short half-life and high decay energy, so phosphorus-32 would be a low-Z option, and polonium-210 (which still isn't transuranic) if you're completely disregarding safety.

Big part of the mass budget is shielding, not source. This gets proportionally worse for small sources, as you need a certain thickness (proportional to r^2), while the emitter power is proportional to volume (r^3).

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by contrarian1234 on Monday June 16, 2025 @06:29AM (#44288176)
Why not just beam power down the optical fiber? Optical fiber is exceptionally clear and works in fog and rain
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by Maxsnijders on Monday June 16, 2025 @07:56AM (#44288727)
If you were to go that way, why not a wire?
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by malfist on Monday June 16, 2025 @06:34AM (#44288210)
Fiber transmits light, not rf. To get power out of fiber optics you have to have a photovoltaic cell on the other side and there's a limit for how much those can produce with such a collaminated light source.

Using fiber optics for power is like trying to make a solar panel generate electricity from a laser beam.

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by TeMPOraL on Monday June 16, 2025 @07:02AM (#44288385)
> Using fiber optics for power is like trying to make a solar panel generate electricity from a laser beam.

Isn't that exactly what power beaming is, except typically with frequency range in microwaves instead of visible light?

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by malfist on Monday June 16, 2025 @09:43AM (#44289442)
> except typically with frequency range in microwaves instead of visible light

That's a big freaking deal.

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by cap11235 on Monday June 16, 2025 @10:54AM (#44290190)
eg, consider WiFi. They choose their bands carefully for wireless standards, and terahertz is pretty far from microwave GHz. I've never seen direct THz synthesis outside of partially-insane radar engineers.
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by ben_w on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @06:01AM (#44297398)
I thought half the controversial scanners since 9/11 were THz (the other half being backscatter X-ray)? Was that just a marketing term?

(I can easily imagine "terahertz for terrorism" being a slogan…)

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by ben_w on Monday June 16, 2025 @07:30AM (#44288581)
I have no idea why this might be limited by the light source being collimated?

I mean, you can get electricity from PV illuminated by a laser, and everything I've heard so far says it's easier than with sunlight because you can match the frequency of the laser to the band gap of the PV.

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by malfist on Monday June 16, 2025 @09:57AM (#44289548)
Sure, you absolutely can do it. But material science quickly becomes a major limit.

For something 15% efficient like a high quality PV cell, for every 100 watts you want to be usable on the receiving side, the receiver has to bleed off 566 watts of heat. And that's 566 watts of waste heat that is highly concentrated.

Consider a single residental power circuit. 12A maximum, 120v, that's 1440 watts at delivery. For PV power delivery via laser, that PV would need to dissipate 8 kilowatts of waste heat. One a very small surface

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by ben_w on Monday June 16, 2025 @01:30PM (#44291558)
It sounds like you're mistaking PV for a thermal system.

In a PV cell, you have a semiconductor. Semiconductors have this thing called a "band gap", which is the energy needed to get an electron from the valence band to the conduction band: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_gap

The limits to efficiency of a solar panel is that sunlight has photons of many energy levels; the photons with energy less than the band gap do nothing, those with more, waste the excess.

A laser can have energy tuned to this band gap, at which point the PV part becomes ~99.9% efficient. (The laser part is not close to that efficiency).

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by malfist on Monday June 16, 2025 @06:12PM (#44293874)
I'm not talking about a thermal system, I'm talking about having to deal with the thermals of your inefficiencies. That energy that doesn't get converted to electricity is converted to heat. And you have to deal with it.

The type of laser based PV that you're taking about that's highly tuned is at maximum 27% efficient. Not 99%.

That's a 73% waste you have to manage

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by ben_w on Tuesday June 17, 2025 @05:48AM (#44297324)
I don't know where you get these ideas from, but they're very very wrong.

You can already buy PV for sunlight with higher efficiency than 27%. Heck, even with a single band gap the limit for *sunlight* with all the problems I've just stated (because a broad spectrum will waste energy and the sun's spectrum is very broad) still gets you to the 33% Shockley–Queisser limit for one junction on the solar spectrum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockley–Queisser_limit

But for monochromatic light, tuned to the band gap, stuff people have already built is several times better than that, and the theoretical limit is basically how finely you can tune the laser bandwidth and how precisely you can control impurities that broaden the band gap.

Here's one designed for monochromatic laser use, that was actually built, with results published in early 2019, with 70% where they recon doing it better would get to 80%: https://krichlab.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Xia18-PVSC.pd...

As with all quantum systems, which is what both PV and lasers are, the ultimate efficiency of a tuned laser-and-band-gap pair is as good as your engineering, hence ~99.9% (on the cell side) if you control absolutely all parts of it properly.

Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by contrarian1234 on Monday June 16, 2025 @06:58AM (#44288354)
just have a tiny steam turbine equivalent...? (some thermoelectric generator) You don't really need to be efficient. You have fans to blow air and dissipate heat on the other end after all
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by 0_____0 on Monday June 16, 2025 @07:28AM (#44288572)
You should do the first round of engineering calculations on this.
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by demod6 on Monday June 16, 2025 @09:21AM (#44289262)
"trying to make a solar panel generate electricity from a laser beam" is literally what the article is about.
Re:DARPA program sets distance record for power beaming by Havoc on Monday June 16, 2025 @10:19AM (#44289763)
Seems like that has a high chance of frying sensors on sats flying behind the drone though