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Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by jaysonelliot on Thursday August 23, 2012 @11:32PM (#4426053)
Apropos of nothing, looking at the inscription on the outside of the package, I'm struck by how beautiful handwriting was in 1912.

I'd like to get that back somehow.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by kamaal on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:25AM (#4426200)
Handwriting is an amazing thing.

But please for heaven's sake do not consider great handwriting to be a sign of intelligence or greatness as a value in itself. This sort of thing destroys kids in their early days. During my days in school(In India). Good handwriting was considered a mandatory trait of good, brilliant and hard working students. Any body who didn't have good hand writing was automatically considered a bad student.

The net result was kids with genuine brilliance, appetite for hard work but with a bad handwriting struggled. Some times forced to imitate their class mates in a bad way. I was a big victim of it. In fact the head mistress called my mom and told her, every thing was brilliant about me and if only I could have great handwriting I could score higher than everybody else. The worst part of it was I took it seriously, I had convinced myself no matter how hardworking or intelligent I was I didn't deserve to score well as I didn't have a good handwriting.

It was not until a couple of years later. During my pre university days. My uncle cleared my mind of all this. He convinced me that good handwriting discipline is nothing great in itself. Although its good to have one. But greatness lies in what you write and not how you write it.

Later I developed how to write in script with separate letters without joining them as in cursive writing. It greatly increased readability. But people around me used to find that strange and some even suicidal for a student.

Its basically what Leo Tolstoy said:

What a strange illusion it is to suppose that beauty is goodness.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by zwischenzug on Friday August 24, 2012 @02:21AM (#4426486)
The same thing happened to me in a UK school in the 1980s.

I was told off repeatedly - and my parents told - about my poor handwriting, my tendency to "rush" work, and even that I went to the toilet too often. Of course, the reality was that I was bored and the teacher was a vindictive fool.

I remember saying to my mum at 8: "I'm worried about my 's'es", and she said "it's hardly likely you'll be sacked from a job because of your 's'es is it?".

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by Graham24 on Friday August 24, 2012 @04:03AM (#4426701)
yeah, i got the same, the school went on and on about my handwriting and spent far too long trying to improve it, wasting my time and theres.

Not exactly an issue as I sit here and type this is it?

Mind you, the one thing i did do when i got a chance, was to do a typing course meant for secretarys as I knew i'd have to type.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by Swizec on Friday August 24, 2012 @04:15AM (#4426722)
Not to sound rude ... but your typing isn't that great either.

theres instead of theirs, secretarys instead of secretaries and none of your I's are uppercase as they're supposed to be.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by tudorw on Friday August 24, 2012 @06:21AM (#4426983)
More incorrect than rude, typing is about hitting the letters you wanted to hit accurately, quickly, consistently and without strain or injury, spelling and grammar are something entirely different!
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by ryanmolden on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:18PM (#4428226)
And both are about communicating with other human beings effectively. I could spell out everything phonetically or use text shorthand as well, but that makes it generally harder for a wide audience to enjoyably consume my writing. Humans do a large part of reading via gestalt comprehension, changing the "shape" of words stymies this process.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by rhdoenges on Friday August 24, 2012 @05:01AM (#4426815)
Don't be a pedant. It's distracting from the actual discussion.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by Swizec on Friday August 24, 2012 @05:32AM (#4426888)
How's this for the actual discussion: There have been cases of people dying because the pharmacist misread the doctor's scribbles and gave them the wrong prescription.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by kamaal on Friday August 24, 2012 @06:08AM (#4426960)
I think the discussion is not about readability but rather artistic value attached to handwriting.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by pimentel on Friday August 24, 2012 @10:36AM (#4427742)
We have medical students "training" their fast and ugly writing, right from the beginning of college. It's all about the doctor's status. The bad handwriting is one medal.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by nicholassmith on Friday August 24, 2012 @05:11AM (#4426840)
And you've just lowercased the starting letter of a new sentence. If you're going to flag someone over something, make sure you double check what you've typed.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by Swizec on Friday August 24, 2012 @05:31AM (#4426886)
Yes I did and it was on purpose, because I was listing exact examples from his comment. Probably should have put them in quotes though, I'll give you that.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by nicholassmith on Friday August 24, 2012 @06:27AM (#4426997)
I did miss that part, but they should have been quoted as examples, quotes save lives.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by xyzzyz on Friday August 24, 2012 @10:19PM (#4430840)
And what value exactly does your comment add? Did you consider that English may not be parent's native language?
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by kamaal on Friday August 24, 2012 @04:11AM (#4426716)
The thing is people attach too much artistic value to hand writing.

Think of it more like painting and drawing.

What makes it worse is the visual appeal and they way it can be preserved over the years.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by slurgfest on Friday August 24, 2012 @11:27AM (#4428008)
Your example showed it isn't artistic value so much as social class.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by johnx123-up on Friday August 24, 2012 @04:16AM (#4426724)

  "Bad handwriting is a sign of imperfect education." - Gandhi
Ironically Gandhi's handwriting http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Gandhi_ha...
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by kang on Friday August 24, 2012 @06:46AM (#4427025)
No Irony. He admits his education was imperfect. The complete para is :

"But though I was none the worse for having neglected exercise, I am still paying the penalty of another neglect. I do not know whence I got the notion that good handwriting was not a necessary part of education, but I retained it until I went to England. When later, especially in South Africa, I saw the beautiful handwriting of lawyers and young men born and educated in South Africa, I was ashamed of myself and repented of my neglect. I saw that bad handwriting should be regarded as a sign of an imperfect education. I tried later to improve mine, but it was too late. I could never repair the neglect of my youth. Let every young man and woman be warned by my example, and understand that good handwriting is a necessary part of education. I am now of opinion that children should first be taught the art of drawing before learning how to write. Let the child learn his letters by observation as he does different objects, such as flowers, birds, etc., and let him learn handwriting only after he has learnt to draw objects. He will then write a beautifully formed hand."

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by ImprovedSilence on Friday August 24, 2012 @09:23AM (#4427442)
There are many good points in there.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by kamaal on Friday August 24, 2012 @06:03AM (#4426947)
This is exactly my point.

If Gandhi says 'Bad handwriting is a sign of imperfect education.' Evaluators correcting the exam papers may think anybody with a bad handwriting is a poor student discarding the content of what he has written.

Sometimes people just go by the trends. Times have changed a lot since Gandhi. These days non-violence is taken as a sign of cowardice, during Gandhi's time it was considered a sign of perseverance, patience and taking on the enemy with moral courage and ultimately defeating him by mere Kindness and courtesy.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by cantrevealname on Friday August 24, 2012 @05:42AM (#4426902)
At the bottom of the letter, Gandhi writes "I see that I must reserve the right hand for N.J.". And the caption at the bottom says "Left hand."

Do you suppose that means that Gandhi deliberately wrote this letter with his left hand?

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by morsch on Friday August 24, 2012 @06:46AM (#4427024)
Yes. His right hand isn't any better, though, in fact: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gandhi_handwriting2.j...
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by johnx123-up on Friday August 24, 2012 @07:06AM (#4427060)

   When his right hand got tired, he wrote with the left.
   His left-hand writing was more legible.
http://www.mkgandhi.org/bahurupi/chap23.htm
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by mistermann on Friday August 24, 2012 @02:45AM (#4426528)
Interesting. One thing that's always jumped out at me over the years, for no particular reason, is the sometimes horrendous handwriting (and sometimes even spelling) of extremely skilled engineers. Sometimes their writing looks like they are holding the pencil vertically in their hand with 4 fingers wrapped around it.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by krautsourced on Friday August 24, 2012 @03:07AM (#4426561)
It's because as a programmer you barely do write anything by hand any more these days. I notice it myself, I'm now faster at typing than (hand)writing, and I wrote shitloads during my times at the uni.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by kamaal on Friday August 24, 2012 @06:05AM (#4426957)
I do a lot of planning on my diary so I write quite a bit.

Also many programmers like working out problems on paper first before firing up the editor.

We do a lot of writing but of a different kind. We don't write essays, stories and records of historical events. But we definitely scribble a lot of symbol manipulation stuff.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by S_A_P on Friday August 24, 2012 @09:48AM (#4427518)
Too true! If I have to write anything in cursive other than my signature(which has now become a symbol more than my name in cursive) I am completely flummoxed as to how to do it.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by gliese1337 on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:32PM (#4428293)

    my signature(which has now become a symbol more than my name in cursive)
True story- when my sister first moved to France, the first time she had to sign anything official, she was told "no, not your name, your signature". So she made up a new scribbly symbol just for that purpose.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by s_kilk on Friday August 24, 2012 @08:25AM (#4427250)
Same for Doctors. My theory is that they have much bigger things to worry about than the state of their own hand-writing.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by cafard on Friday August 24, 2012 @08:28AM (#4427256)
Damn. I had bad handwriting as a kid--and haven't great handwriting now--and the bad grades did bother me. But somehow I survived w/o carrying scars into later life.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by bglusman on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:53PM (#4428391)
It is strange and not so strange, and not always such an illusion... perhaps we can blame nature, but though form should follow function, and much good is hidden and much ugliness made pretty, but it's a mistake to think that they are entirely separate and unconnected. http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by tsieling on Friday August 24, 2012 @01:06AM (#4426297)
Beautiful Tolstoy quote. And I do see the irony in saying that. But still.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by Tichy on Friday August 24, 2012 @03:49AM (#4426675)
It doesn't say that beautiful things are automatically bad. Just that they are not automatically good.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by repiret on Thursday August 23, 2012 @11:40PM (#4426069)
I don't remember the full context, but once my uncle said: "It must be an old person, because the handwriting is so pretty."

To which my grandfather replied: "you had to write like that with a fountain pen"

I've never used a fountain pen, but I gather you have to maintain a fairly constant speed as the pen moves along the paper. If you want that handwriting back, I think you have to get rid of ball-point pens and pencils. Although while pretty handwriting is nice, I'm not convinced its worth the time to learn. (Which isn't to say legible handwriting isn't worth learning)

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by ciupicri on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:02AM (#4426136)
I used both fountain pens and pencils when I was in school and I had similar results, regardless of the tool. Though my writing wasn't exactly beautiful, but it was pretty readable.

Regarding the ball-point pen, when I switched to it, I had to write fast, so the writing might have deteriorated from both the speed and the tool.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by duaneb on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:13AM (#4426161)
A fountain pen is generally more expressive, but it takes a lot of time to control and you can't rush it.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by ams6110 on Thursday August 23, 2012 @11:50PM (#4426104)
There's something about a fountain pen. I have a few, and without fail I write more neatly, and make fewer mistakes, than when using pencil or ball-point. I think it's that they demand slightly more concentration on mechanics to make them work, and that's enough to make a big difference in the writing quality.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by fusiongyro on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:01AM (#4426135)
Eh… I have one I use daily (a Pilot/Namiki retractable nib) and it certainly hasn't made my handwriting any better. It is nicer than a regular pen though.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by shmerl on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:58AM (#4426280)
That's simple. Dip and fountain pens allow you to create lines of different thickness, which can result in interesting calligraphy. It's simply impossible with ball pens which produce constant thickness lines.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by robin_reala on Friday August 24, 2012 @02:37AM (#4426518)
I was required to use a fountain pen at school (late 80s UK). Needless to say as a left handed person my enforced writing style one word, blot, one word, blot was anything but fluid.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by troels on Friday August 24, 2012 @02:46AM (#4426529)
At least you weren't forced to write with your right hand. I have been told that was fairly common a generation further back (At least, my dad claims so).
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by sdoering on Friday August 24, 2012 @03:12AM (#4426569)
I have been lucky, not being punished for writing with my left hand. My mother was forced to write with her right hand. But even in the 1980s pupils in Germany were forced to write with the right (in both meanings) hand.

We now know a lot more, about what this does to a child's brain, but then, teachers just believed to be right.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by btilly on Friday August 24, 2012 @04:06AM (#4426705)
I knew a left-handed math prof who had had that treatment growing up in Holland. But he'd developed a party trick.

One day he told us about this. And said that the result was that he could write with both hands. Different things. He demonstrated. Wrote with both hands at once, different things, on 2 neighboring boards. Kept on writing. Got to the bottom of the boards. Then turned around, began lecturing from the first board, reached the bottom, and continued the lecture from the second. He had laid out the boards perfectly to do this.

It was a very impressive party trick.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by eru on Friday August 24, 2012 @08:32AM (#4427264)
We had a slightly less impressive professor, who erased with the right and wrote with the left. Also at the same time.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by slurgfest on Friday August 24, 2012 @11:31AM (#4428037)
It doesn't do anything to a child's brain, it's just gratuitously cruel. That is reason enough. But many people the world over learn to eat or whatever with a certain hand and it does not hurt their brain.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by josephcooney on Friday August 24, 2012 @03:19AM (#4426601)
I think even if your handwriting is crap a fountain pen just looks better, or at least more auspicious. Horrible for lefties of course, but very nice to use if you're right-handed.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by fractallyte on Friday August 24, 2012 @04:17AM (#4426728)
If you're left-handed, handwriting proceeds best by mirroring what the right hand would do (ie. write 'backwards'). It's far more natural. Alright, so others will need a mirror to read it - but that ought to be society's problem, not yours! ("Equal rights for the Sinisterous!")

In a gradual shift toward ambidexterity, I've found that questioning society's insistence on 'right-ness' can be enlightening...

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by lifeisstillgood on Friday August 24, 2012 @05:35AM (#4426893)
Presumably script that proceeds right to left (and even upwards) was originated by left handed scribes

edit spellchecker : left handed scribes became left handed scones. The history of heavy baked goods in the development of human civilisation has been scandalously neglected by a blinkered academic community.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by ithkuil on Friday August 24, 2012 @07:05AM (#4427057)
I remember I read somewhere about the fact that right-to-left script was preferred when carving script on stone. as right hand people supposedly prefer to hold the hammer on their right hand.

I'm not sure if that's really the cause. Furthermore in many ancient scripts the direction was quite unimportant, in some cases even reverting in each line (Boustrophedon).

Interesting take on direction of writing: http://shkrobius.livejournal.com/292987.html

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by dimitar on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:41PM (#4428336)
I don't get it. Why is it harder for lefties? Aren't the pens themselves ambidextrous?
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by pbhjpbhj on Friday August 24, 2012 @02:05PM (#4428782)
Writing left-handed in a left-to-right script requires the hand to move over the ink that was just applied. This invariably means smudges. Writing right-handed (LTR) the ink has time to dry before the hand moves over it for the next line of prose.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by josephcooney on Friday August 24, 2012 @03:51PM (#4429312)
Plus the ink from a fountain pen stays "sumdgier" longer than modern pens.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by epo on Friday August 24, 2012 @03:15AM (#4426582)
Buy a good fountain pen, write slowly. Start by getting cheap pens, preferably those with interchangeable nibs to see which nib size you prefer using. When you know which size you like (for most people it will be medium) get a decent pen and nib and carry it with you.

I have a vintage Parker 51 and some oldish German pens. Modern Japanese pens are quite good though nibs can be narrow for Western taste.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by ginko on Friday August 24, 2012 @11:30AM (#4428028)
I hate fountain pens.

You get splotches everywhere and they often dry up for no apparent reason.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by tjr on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:06PM (#4428189)
After trying several fountain pens and having less than pleasant experiences, I have for years now used felt-tip pens almost exclusively. It approximates the look and feel of a fountain pen close enough for my tastes, and requires much less wrist pressure than ballpoint pens.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by rsaarelm on Friday August 24, 2012 @02:22AM (#4426487)
Nice calligraphy, sure, but hopefully not cursive. Careless cursive handwriting ends up illegible much, much faster than print handwriting, and relies way too much on context to let you figure out what individual words are for my liking. I've had to ask people who wrote cursive notes with just a couple of words instead of a full sentence what they actually wrote, since I couldn't make out the word without the priming of a full sentence of barely legible scribbles.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by huxley on Friday August 24, 2012 @10:36AM (#4427738)
My father used to do a lot of research using microfilmed 17th-19th century documents.

Cursive handwriting (combined with often poor microfilm or fiche photography) was an occupational hazard, he got fairly good at interpreting some documents but it might take him the better part of an afternoon to transcribe 4 or 5 pages of journal entries from some documents.

Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by soperj on Friday August 24, 2012 @12:53AM (#4426270)
For what it's worth, I have (older)relatives in Sweden who still write like that, with a ballpoint pen. So i don't think it's necessarily that it was written with a fountain pen, although they may have learned with a fountain pen and just continued writing that way.
Re:Tomorrow, a 100 year old mysterious package will be opene... by antidoh on Friday August 24, 2012 @10:57AM (#4427859)
Write Now. It works. I can write again.

http://www.handwritingsuccess.com/write-now.php