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Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by spankalee on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @06:07PM (#44241987)
Google's damned if they do and damned if the don't here:

- If they don't make search AI centric, they're going to get lapped by AI-first competitors like Perplexity, OpenAI, etc. We saw many people here predict Google's pending demise from this. - If they do make search centric, they're unfairly consuming they world's content and hoarding the user traffic to themselves.

Since no reasonable company is just going to stand by and willing let itself be obsoleted, Google's obviously going to go for option 2. But had they for some reason stood down, then they would have been supplanted by an AI competitor and the headline would read "News Sites Are Getting Crushed by Perplexity" - just a few years later.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by juujian on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @07:40PM (#44242710)
The one way forward for them would have been to maintain their quality, but they decided to cash in on their monopoly instead. Peak short-termis.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by ajross on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @07:42PM (#44242722)
Seems to my untrained eyes like Google's AI search is actually the best on the market, no? Seems like a lot of HN users have trained themselves not to type queries into the search prompt anymore and then complain about the quality of a product they don't use.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by hobs on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @07:59PM (#44242844)
What are you Google's mom? The search product sucks, the AI summaries suck, and they did it on purpose.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by halfmatthalfcat on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @08:05PM (#44242881)
I take it you’re the rebellious teenager then?
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by hobs on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @07:58AM (#44246677)
Against the biggest corporations? Sure, I'd much rather fulfill the role of overly critical teenager then defensive protective parent when it comes to rapacious companies who deserve none of our support.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by marcus_holmes on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @08:20PM (#44242973)
Possibly their AI search - I don't know, I switched to Kagi to get a search engine that actually did what I asked instead of just trying to put as many ads in front of me as it could.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by chneu on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @12:45AM (#44244278)
I tried to like Kagi but the UI is awful and the results were often way off from what was relevant. Then the limitations were pretty lame.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by malnourish on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @03:25AM (#44245067)
What's wrong with the UI, what limitations have you experienced? I've found my searches relevant and haven't noticed any limitations.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by chneu on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @04:07AM (#44245292)
The paywall. I'm not against paying, but their free tier limitations are way too low.

The UI is just horrible and a huge waste of space. I had to use a user style to make it a non-headache to use.

Kagi routinely lacks results that every other search engine I use get no problem. I can't give any examples but I found myself going to page 5+ more often on Kagi than any other service.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by OskarS on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @08:15AM (#44246813)
If the paywall bothers you, then Kagi just isn't for you, the whole point of it is to have a business model where the users are customers, not the product.

I have no problem with the UI. It's snappy, clean, doesn't have a bunch of cruft, it's easy to find results, etc. It feels like Google of yore.

Same thing with the search results, I find them really excellent. In my experience, there's much less SEO spam. If you search for a programming language function, you get links to the proper documentation, not some trash "geeksforgeeks" site or whatever. I can't remember if I've ever had to go past page one.

Obviously YMMV on that, it's entirely possible it's different depending on what you're searching for. But I'm very happy paying for Kagi, and will continue to do so.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by dyauspitr on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @03:28AM (#44245089)
Kagi is okay. Decided to try it after all the hearsay on HN and it was severely underwhelming.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bcoates on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @08:40PM (#44243084)
Every once in a while I bother not ignoring a Google AI overview, then I waste some time fact-checking it and find out it's wrong. Most recently about a python library (where it hallucinated a function that doesn't exist, complete with documentation and usage examples) and breaking news (where it authoritatively said [non-culture war, non-controversial, local] thing doesn't happen, above a dog-bites-man story from a conventional news source about how thing happened again)
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by ajross on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:35PM (#44243375)
> Every once in a while

Pretty much what I said, no? You don't use the product and when you do, do it through a filter[1] where you only remember the bugs. Do you use other AI search products and find that they don't show this behavior?

[1] I mean, come on: framing it as "bother not ignoring" is just a dead giveaway that you aren't doing a product evaluation in good faith!

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bcoates on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @11:06PM (#44243813)
I am doing the review in good faith though--by default, I scroll past to the first result, then if it seems unsuitable and I'm desperate enough I check the LLM thingy. If it were providing any value it would sometimes be both novel and correct.

Usually it's non-novel (correctly-harmelessly but unhelpfully, restating the web search results). When it's novel it's because it's wrong.

I would remember the situation where reading the LLM thingy added any value if it ever happened. The weird little UI thing they do where they only show the LLM result if you wait for it to render makes this very easy, I have to scroll up to even consider it.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by chneu on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @12:41AM (#44244258)
I think you're also showing some bias.

People are now changing how they search and gather information to use AI. You're automatically discounting that person's experience because they avoid using AI for valid reasons. A lot of times Google AI is outright wrong, not even close to correct. It makes sense to not rely on it and only going back to see if it's improved.

I don't "ignore AI". I just haven't changed how I search and gather information because it's clearly not accurate yet. I still have to fact check it which negates the benefits(time saving). Occasionally I go back to see if it's improved and usually it hasn't. That's not bias.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by danielrico on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @02:47AM (#44244840)
My experience with Gemini in AI studio mirrors what the AI overview shows. An hallucinated libraries and their internal reasoning dialogue reinforcing the hallucination and saying "the user don't know how to search on pipy".
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by waldrews on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:00PM (#44243200)
The model that's doing AI Summary for search results - that presumably needs to be fast and cheap because of the scale - is still sufficiently bad as to give people a bad taste. Presumably they're frantically working to scale their better models for this use case. If you could get Gemini Pro on every search result the experience would be effectively perfect (in the sense of better error rates than what a non-specialist educated human reading the top results and summarizing them would achieve). That's years away from a scaling/cost/speed perspective.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bionhoward on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:50PM (#44243726)
One funny thing about Google summaries is “copy text” merges all of the links into a giant blob which gets interpreted as a single extremely long broken link. Not a great sign for attention to detail if they don’t even copy their own pasta (it’s been like this for months)
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by flokie on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:21PM (#44243301)
In the US (to start) there's now a flavor of Gemini 2.5 to power Search experiences like AI Mode and AI Overviews. Should be sufficiently good at this point.

source: https://blog.google/products/search/google-search-ai-mode-up...

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by zdragnar on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:09PM (#44243245)
I've been pleasantly surprised at the quality of the answers, but they've been wrong enough that I'll never not double check them anyway.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by WorldMaker on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @12:41PM (#44249368)
Having reluctantly used both, Bing's Copilot seems a lot more grounded on current search results below it versus Google's Gemini seems a lot more likely to conduct its own searches from a different query than what was asked, so also a lot more likely to hallucinate things or to provide answers that seem way different from the rest of the search page.

In terms of "best on the market" for AI search, I know that I am much more likely to trust the one that seems more like a direct summary of the stuff the search engine is traditionally responding with (and presumably has been well tuned in the last several decades) versus the one more likely to make stuff up or to leave the realm of what you are actually asking for some other search it thinks is better for you.

Though admittedly that's a very personal judgment call; some people want the assistant to search for "what they really mean" rather than "what they asked for". It's also a lot of gut vibes from how these AIs write about their research and some of that can be hallucinations and lies and "prompt optimization" as much or more than any sort of "best on the market" criteria.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by dyauspitr on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @03:27AM (#44245082)
That’s a cheap argument. Even with high quality results (which I still think Google is the best at), LLMs are infinitely easier to use.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by msgodel on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @06:44PM (#44242333)
For anything important I always ask LLMs for links and follow them. I think this will probably just create a strong incentive to cover important things and move away from clickbait.

It's probably a win for everyone in the long run although it means news sites will have to change. That's going to be painful for them but it's not like they're angels either.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @07:07PM (#44242505)
> I think this will probably just create a strong incentive to cover important things and move away from clickbait.

But clickbait is how they make money...

That's like saying, "Oh, Apple will just have to move away from selling the iPhone and start selling hamburgers instead."

I mean, sure, but they're not going to like it, and it's going to come with a lot of lost revenue and profits.

I find myself regularly copying URLs, sending it to Gemini, and asking it to answer what I want to get out of the article.

I'm not wasting my time scrolling through a mile of website and 88,000 ads to find the answer to the headline.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by chgs on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @07:19PM (#44242576)
Those adverts and clickbait will infect llms soon enough, just be far harder to block.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by nitwit005 on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @07:28PM (#44242637)
Yes, unfortunately for those saying AIs will only get better, advertising is a major reason we should expect them to get worse.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by techjamie on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @07:51PM (#44242782)
Ironically, I wonder if it would inspire a slew of downstream services that use LLMs to clean advertising out of the mainstream LLM responses.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by downsplat on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @07:55PM (#44242811)
With the huge usage that LLM APIs are getting in all sorts of industries, they cannot be going away, and they're cheap.

If consumer AI chatbots get enshittified, you can just grab some open source bring-your-api-keys front-end, and chat away for peanuts without ads or anything anti-user.

I use https://github.com/sigoden/aichat , but there are GUIs too.

Plus, anyone enterprising can just write a web front-end and sell it as "the ad-free AI chatbot, only $10/mo, usage limits apply".

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by brettermeier on Thursday June 12, 2025 @12:10PM (#44259366)
But what if the AI output contains ads, not the UI or whatever...
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by input_sh on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @08:24PM (#44242997)
And what happens when you follow them?

In my experience, the answers tend to be sourced from fringe little blogs that I would never trust in a Google search.

Google at least attempts to rank them by quality, while LLM web search seems to click on the closest match regardless of the (lack of) quality.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by msgodel on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @08:34PM (#44243049)
Huh that's strange to hear. The HN I remember would have always said the opposite (the small web tends to be higher quality) as do I.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by yummypaint on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:25PM (#44243327)
I'm surprised the links work for you at all. 90+% of citations for non trivial information (i.e. not in a text book but definitely in the literature) I've gotten from LLMs have been very convincing hallucinations. The year and journal volume will match, the author will be someone who plausibly would have written on the topic, but the articles don't exist and never did. It's a tremendous waste of time and energy compared to old fashioned library search tools.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by im3w1l on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @05:11AM (#44245657)
One thing I did once with great success was asking chatgpt something like "I'm trying to find information about X, but when I Google it I just get results about the app named after X. Can you suggest a better query?"

X was some tehnical thing I didn't know a lot about so it gave me some more words to narrow down the query that I would not have known about myself. And that really helped me find the information I needed.

It also threw in some book tips for good measure.

So yeah I can highly recommend this workflow.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by vgeek on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @06:18PM (#44242109)
We are getting to watch The Innovator's Dilemma play out, yet again. The downward trajectory of Google's utility has only been worsening over the past 10 years-- but only in the last 3-4 have mainstream audiences started to notice.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bitpush on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:02PM (#44243514)
The first part of that statement is valid but the second one isn't.

If anything, most of big tech has shown exceptional humility against new threats

Instagram incorporating stories (Snapchat)

YouTube incorporating Shorts (tiktok)

Google search incorporating AI Mode (perplexity et al)

This is in stark contrast to Kodak and the likes who scoffed at digital camera and phone cameras as distraction. They were sure that their ways were superior, ultimately leading to their demise.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by vgeek on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @11:44PM (#44243996)
Maybe you misunderstood the scope that Google is a search advertising company first and foremost? Alphabet ignores (yes, they essentially invented transformers, etc.., but actual productive efforts likely correlate to predicted TAM or protecting status quo, answering to shareholders while waiting to acquire threats) a market that will eventually usurp their cash cow of first party search ads, because the new market isn't initially as lucrative due to market size. There is also the consideration of cannibalizing their high margin search ads market with an error prone and resource intensive tech that cannot immediately be monetized in a second price auction (both from inventory and bidder participant perspectives). A $10 billion market for Google would be under 3% of revenue, but if the market grows 10x, it is much more attractive, but now the incumbent may be trailing the nascent companies who refined their offerings (without risk of cannibalizing their own offerings) while said market was growing. We are currently at the stage where Google is incorporating Gemini responses and alienating publishers (by not sending monetizable clicks while using their content) while still focusing on monetization via their traditional ad products elsewhere on the SERPs (text search ads, shopping ads). Keep in mind, they also control 3rd party display ads via DoubleClick and Adsense-- but inventory on 3rd party sites will drop and Google will lose their 30%+ cut if users don't leave the SERPs.

Dozens of major news publications have covered the decline of Google's organic search quality decline and emphasis on monetization (ignoring incorrect infoboxes and AI generated answers). See articles such as https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/09/googl... and a collection even posted here on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30348460 . This has played into reasons why people have shifted away from Google. Their results are focused solely on maximizing Google's earnings per mille, as leaked (https://www.wsj.com/tech/u-s-urges-breakup-of-google-ad-busi...) where the ads team has guanxi over search quality. Once Amit Singhal and Matt Cutts left their roles, the focus on monetization over useful SERPs becomes much more evident.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by stefan_ on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @06:58PM (#44242445)
Spare us the "woe is me" for they literally invented replacing the publishers. Yesterday its infoboxes, today its shitty AI summaries. Which is still the case, so good riddance.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bitpush on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:03PM (#44243522)
What is infobox?
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by tehjoker on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @06:43PM (#44242325)
A simple tale of how capitalism leads to unintended anti-social consequences through market mechanisms that no one participant can control.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by marcuschong on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @08:26PM (#44243010)
It's funny most people are saying Google will win the AI wars, though that is precisely what will cannibalize their current business model, which had a much bigger moat than frontier LLMs, apparently.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by w-ll on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @08:32PM (#44243041)
You think we wont start seeing ads or paid for refs/links in those AI responses? Not defending Google here, when they turned that feature on I posted to some friends "another nail in the coffin for the web as we know it" or something to that effect.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by lostmsu on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:50PM (#44243454)
Eventually open models will be able to do the same, so why would anyone use ad-ridden service? The first LLM provider who turns on ads on their responses will disappear in a brink.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by olyjohn on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:04PM (#44243527)
People use, and pay for, ad-ridden services all the time. I mean, just look at Cable TV and the direction all the streaming services are going.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by lostmsu on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @12:37AM (#44244239)
Provided there are no identical alternatives without ads.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bitpush on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:05PM (#44243533)
Data won't be open and free for scraping in the future. And news worthy sites will ask for $$.

So nope, open models won't be a threat in the future.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by _flux on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @03:16AM (#44245017)
It will take a long time until an average person has the resources to run models of similar quality (and speed) as Google and OpenAI can provide today.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by lostmsu on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @08:28AM (#44246899)
It took under a year last time.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by dzhiurgis on Thursday June 12, 2025 @06:04PM (#44263677)
Because it's going to be 100x better than open models.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bgwalter on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:21PM (#44243306)
They could simply restore the search quality they had in 2010. No one wants these "AI" summaries except for people looking to get promoted for "having an impact" inside Google.

What Google is doing right now is sabotage the search moat they do have. They are throwing it all away because of some "AI" rainmakers inside the company.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by kccqzy on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:40PM (#44243397)
That's impossible unless the web reverted back to 2010, when walled gardens weren't prevalent, making your own blog was common, doable and often done by those without programming experience, forums were alive and well, and people wanted to share things on the web rather than group chats.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by o11c on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @11:13PM (#44243861)
It's perfectly possible if they start downranking sites full of ads.

But an ad company will never do that.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by voxl on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:47PM (#44243441)
There are plenty of blogs, plenty of obvious low quality spam to block, plenty of features to enable allowlist and blocklists. To think for a second that the Google search experience couldn't be made significantly better at the snap of a finger by Google is to live in a fantasy world.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by ljlolel on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:31PM (#44243653)
All that means less revenue, that’s a fantasy
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by voxl on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @11:16PM (#44243883)
Sure, sure, except for this minor issue that the argument I was responding to didn't mention revenue, they talked about the state of the internet. So why again are you responding to my counter with a straw man?
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by massysett on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:34PM (#44243667)
> No one wants these "AI" summaries

Not true, I use them all the time. They have links available for when I want further information, which is not very often.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by userbinator on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:39PM (#44243694)
I never use them. Especially when they can be completely wrong (and the problem is how will you know that it's wrong?): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44142113
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bdangubic on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:46PM (#44243715)
you are linking to “AI responses can make a mistake” post???! Google’s top 86 search results are ads :)
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by irjustin on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:01PM (#44243507)
Simply untrue. I don't want it back. I use ChatGPT's voice transcribing to do 99% of my searches today.

Google does need to adapt or die

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by ketzo on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:33PM (#44243362)
Then what explains people doing millions of web searches on perplexity/chatgpt/claude?
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bdangubic on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @09:48PM (#44243447)
they are losing more and more search to “AI.” my 12-year old never uses Google and couple of times I asked her to “Google it” she literally rolled on the floor laughing and called me a “boomer” :)
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by triceratops on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:25PM (#44243623)
I wonder if "boomer" is going to become a generic term for "my parents' generation".
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by bdangubic on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:45PM (#44243711)
100%
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by einsteinx2 on Thursday June 12, 2025 @06:17AM (#44255898)
Already has been for a while now. Also just anyone that isn’t hip to the latest trend of the day.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by stormfather on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @10:59AM (#44248374)
Is this really that bad for Google? Do Perplexity and OpenAI use paid SERP API under the hood? Google doesn't have to make money from ads on search, if its paid search.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by skeaker on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @01:12PM (#44249671)
I never really bought the idea of any AI company killing Google. They have too much momentum to really be seriously impacted, too many people who only use them exclusively and will continue to do so their whole lives on the name brand alone. They might risk a lack of "growth" but that only really matters to shareholders, not to end users.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by hadlock on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @02:36PM (#44250490)
Yahoo had 90%+ of the search market and they lost it in a few years to google because they were unable to innovate. I don't think anyone saw that coming. Everyone was building "portals" (remember those? AOL.com? I think verizon.com was one at some point with news and weather) to try and compete with Yahoo's dominance in search. It can happen again. LLM Chat is certainly an existential threat to the googs. Part of the OpenAI lore is that google originally viewed it as a threat to their search/advertising revenue model and defunded it on that basis.

The fact that people are willing to pay for LLM and use it over search seems to indicate that Google's free product isn't as good, and llm chat is better "Enough" that people are willing to pay for it.

Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by skeaker on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @06:23PM (#44252471)
The major flaw in your argument is that Yahoo is still around. They still have tons of traffic, some of the most in the world, just behind Reddit. They are not constantly growing, yes, but that is exactly my point. They have a satisfied userbase who will use them for life as does Google. Neither is going anywhere any time soon. Both make billions of dollars annually.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by hadlock on Thursday June 12, 2025 @02:17PM (#44260920)
Yahoo's peak (inflation adjusted value was ~$325 billion and the last sale of their assets was $4.5 billion in 2017 which is about 1% of it's peak value. I can't imagine google investors wanting to risk 99% of their investment.
Re:Chatbots are replacing Google's search, devastating traff... by skeaker on Friday June 13, 2025 @01:01PM (#44270237)
Regardless, they are far from dead. Multiple billions of dollars is still doing fantastic for any business, investors and shareholders be damned.