News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by IceHegel on Saturday April 26, 2025 @03:10AM (#43801545)
I think one of the biggest problems in the United States is the misallocation of ambitious people. The highly educated and ambitious people see finance, government, tech, and corporate executive tracks, as the way to convert their energies into social status.

Even startups these days seem to be a case of too many chiefs, not enough Indians.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by jmpman on Saturday April 26, 2025 @03:53AM (#43801711)
When Elon gets excited about displacing his engineers on a whim with H1Bs, why would any highly educated ambitious person want to work for Tesla?
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by theshrike79 on Saturday April 26, 2025 @04:41AM (#43801919)
And the worst thing is that Elon could've been a living legend by building/funding colleges and schools focused on the tech his companies need, software development, robotics etc. Or even given out million dollar scholarships for the very top students.

And he still would've been worth over 250 billion easily.

Instead he chose to buy the president and start "optimising" the government with AI.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by motorest on Saturday April 26, 2025 @05:09AM (#43802031)
> And the worst thing is that Elon could've been a living legend by building/funding colleges and schools focused on the tech his companies need, software development, robotics etc.

Could he, though?

I mean, he might have the cash, but if you look at his history you don't see that much interest or respect for basic academic principles, or even any basic academic achievement whatsoever.

He conveys an image of someone who is mentally trapped in prepubescence, and who repeatedly does things that a prepubescent kid does to try to gather admiration. I meant who desperately tries to pass themselves off as elite gamers? How long will it take until he moves on to DJing? That's not someone who has any interest in founding education institutions.

The man does have an army of terminally online sycophants, which I now wonder whether they are astroturfed.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by e40 on Saturday April 26, 2025 @05:34AM (#43802153)
I think the point is he could if he was a different person.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by motorest on Saturday April 26, 2025 @06:18AM (#43802350)
> I think the point is he could if he was a different person.

That statement is pointless. The critical factor is not money, it's willingness. You do not even need to be the world's richest man to put together a school. There are pro athletes with a fraction of the wealth that already do meaningful investments in education.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by voidspark on Saturday April 26, 2025 @06:31AM (#43802398)
He has two degrees. BA in Physics and BSc in Economics
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by motorest on Saturday April 26, 2025 @07:07AM (#43802575)
> He has two degrees. BA in Physics and BSc in Economics

You should verify your claims

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/musk-physics-degree/

From the article:

> Musk's past statements about his educational background, however, have been, at best, imprecise. He has claimed on several occasions to have received a physics degree in 1995 — a claim that was never fully true but which may have aided Musk's early business career.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by rascul on Saturday April 26, 2025 @07:40AM (#43802717)
The Snopes article confirms the comment you're replying to. The sentence you left out, before your quote:

> The University of Pennsylvania considers Musk to be a graduate of both the economics department and the physics department.

And right above that, from the University of Pennsylvania:

> Elon Musk earned a B.A. in physics and a B.S. in economics (concentrations: finance and entrepreneurial management) from the University of Pennsylvania. The degrees were awarded on May 19, 1997.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by weberer on Saturday April 26, 2025 @09:28AM (#43803455)
>Does Elon Musk Have an Undergraduate Degree in Physics?

>Rating: True

>Musk has on previous occasions claimed he received this degree in 1995, but the University of Pennsylvania says it was awarded in 1997.

What was the point of your comment?

[dead]
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tessierashpool on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:05PM (#43805792)
ironically, this itself is gaslighting
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by voidspark on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:23PM (#43805954)
The person I replied to is gaslighting, not me.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by le-mark on Saturday April 26, 2025 @07:39AM (#43802715)
Elon has proven to truly be the dumbest smart guy ever. He alienated Tesla’s core customers; tree hugging liberals, and anyone who cares about sustainability. The GOP nor their voters care and never will. I called this Tesla stock crash months ago; did not act on it though.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by rco8786 on Saturday April 26, 2025 @08:22AM (#43802971)
One interesting thing is that he seems completely unaware that he is the problem. Stepping back from DOGE to focus on Tesla again. He thinks that him getting closer to Tesla will help save the brand, when it's exactly his association with it that caused the damage in the first place.

The best thing he could do for Tesla would be to step aside.

> I called this Tesla stock crash months ago

TSLA is currently up 5% MoM despite really, really horrible earnings and outlook. The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent sometimes.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by klntsky on Saturday April 26, 2025 @08:33AM (#43803032)
I don't think stock prices matter as much to him (everybody knows there are lots of expectations baked in the price).
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by rco8786 on Saturday April 26, 2025 @09:26AM (#43803430)
Nor do I, I'm sure he's aware it's propped up on nothing but fumes and vibes. I was just commenting on OP wishing they had shorted TSLA months ago. Easy to say in hindsight, is all.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by skellera on Saturday April 26, 2025 @10:23AM (#43803884)
I think less people care about it politically than you think. Most people I know who have Teslas stand by the product even through Elon’s dumb shit.

I think people care more about their own convenience. There’s nothing else in our market that’s even comparable. People talk a lot of shit and it wasn’t great to start but FSD is on a different level now, especially on newer cars like the new Model Y. Having a car that mostly drives itself is the best purchase I’ve ever made.

It doesn’t seem to be slowing down sales in Seattle. New Model Ys are everywhere here.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by toomuchtodo on Saturday April 26, 2025 @11:12AM (#43804312)
Tesla once again tells its own CEO Elon Musk to knock it off with the politics - https://electrek.co/2025/04/22/tesla-once-again-tells-ceo-el... - April 22nd, 2025

67% of Americans would not consider buying a Tesla, new poll says - https://electrek.co/2025/03/28/most-americans-would-not-cons... - March 28th, 2025

Tesla sales fall by 49% in Europe even as the electric vehicle market grows - https://apnews.com/article/tesla-sales-recall-trump-byd-b6f5... - March 25, 2025

Tesla is done in Germany: 94% say they won’t buy a Tesla car - https://electrek.co/2025/03/14/tesla-is-done-in-germany-94-s... - March 14th, 2025

Australian Tesla sales plummet as owners rush to distance themselves from Elon Musk -https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/mar/06/australia... - March 6th, 2025

(own several Teslas, won't buy another)

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by gdudeman on Saturday April 26, 2025 @10:54AM (#43804173)
This anecdote doesn’t match the data.

It is definitely slowing demand. You can see it in the Q1 numbers and the discounts on vehicles.

You can ask anyone who buys used EVs in Seattle. There is a glut of Tesla sellers and not many buyers.

Like it or not, your car says a lot about you. People bought Teslas because they liked what they said and now they are avoiding them because they don’t like it.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by isoprophlex on Saturday April 26, 2025 @12:52PM (#43805198)
My dude I'm european and unless you have a "i hate elon too" sticker on your tesla, people gonna cut you off, spit on your car, do nazi salutes at you while you drive. The resale value of these cars tanked hard, and noone is buying new ones.

Elon had better put a bunch of quarters up his ass, considering how hard he played himself.

[1] (in dutch) https://www.nu.nl/nujij/6353652/klemgereden-hitlergroeten-en...

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by FirmwareBurner on Saturday April 26, 2025 @01:52PM (#43805679)
That's crazy. Where's that?

Good thing I live in a country where Europeans aren't mentally deranged.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tessierashpool on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:09PM (#43805821)
your question is crazy, dude.

a lot of Europeans remember the Nazis and didn't like the Nazi salute.

WW2 was memorable for a lot of people.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by voidspark on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:31PM (#43806004)
I recently saw a compilation of Democrat politicians doing the exact same "Nazi salute" over the years. Obama, Hillary, Sanders, AOC, etc.

Even the ADL released a statement saying that it was obviously not a Nazi salute. People are actually delusional. Extremely childish and idiotic.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by lostlogin on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:51PM (#43806154)
I don’t know what those other were up to, but most wouldn’t call them fascist. The difference is that Elon’s actions and words align.

He does Nazi things, says Nazi things and funds Nazi things.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by voidspark on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:58PM (#43806200)
Seriously delusional. Get psychiatric help. I'm not joking or trolling.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tomhow on Saturday April 26, 2025 @08:50PM (#43808525)
Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tzs on Saturday April 26, 2025 @08:48PM (#43808512)
> I recently saw a compilation of Democrat politicians doing the exact same "Nazi salute" over the years. Obama, Hillary, Sanders, AOC, etc.

No, you did not. You saw a collection of Democrat politicians whose arms at one point were sticking out in the same position that arms stick out at the end of a Nazi salute. This happens all the time. I do it 3 days a week when making breakfast.

What Musk did was start with his arm down, rapidly raise it to his heart, and then forcefully thrust it out to the position usually shows in photographs of Hitler doing the salute. There are videos of Hitler doing that full hand to heart and then thrust gesture that almost exactly match Musk's gesture from start to finish.

When you track down the videos that the purported Democrat examples are taken from you will see that none of them did that. They were doing things like pointing, or waving to a crowd, or gesticulating while they talked, and in the midst of that their arms ended up in that position.

[dead]
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tzs on Sunday April 27, 2025 @01:34AM (#43809678)
Watch and learn.

This is what it looks like when you are waving to crowd or gesturing and your arm goes out without it being identical to a Nazi salute: https://x.com/ExposingNV/status/1881647306724049116?t=CGKtg0...

This is what it looks like when what you are doing is exactly like a Nazi salute: https://x.com/BartoSitek/status/1882081868423860315?t=8F0hL-...

If you think these are exactly the same, seek optometrist help.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by pirgidb on Sunday April 27, 2025 @04:12AM (#43810308)
[delayed]
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by voidspark on Monday April 28, 2025 @04:53AM (#43819078)
There is nothing to defend. The National Socialists were defeated 80 years ago. That only exists in their imagination, not in reality. Anyone can go to YouTube and listen to the speech. Not a Nazi rally.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43819077

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by pirgidb on Wednesday April 30, 2025 @06:28PM (#43851420)
We've all seen. Other commenters explained in great detail what they saw. You choose to plug your ears and then insist everyone else is crazy. Everything you've brought up here is irrelevant. No one thinks that the Nazis are secretly living on the moon. The defeat of the Nazis is entirely orthogonal to a gesture made in recent history. The Hunger Games is fiction but I can still hold up three fingers if I choose to.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by voidspark on Monday April 28, 2025 @04:53AM (#43819077)
He said "My heart goes out to you". Not "HEIL HITLER".

That's not a Nazi parade. The Nazis were defeated 80 years ago. They don't exist.

A lot of Jews support Elon Musk. Even the fucking ADL said it wasn't a Nazi salute.

Now show Hitler drinking a glass of water.

Drinking water = NAZI.

[dead]
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tomhow on Sunday April 27, 2025 @08:51AM (#43811568)
> What are the odds HN engages in speech censorship on viewpoints it doesn't like?

Funny you should ask but now's not the time to get into it.

Your comment breaches the guidelines.

Particularly this line:

> Get a grip on reality. Elon didn't cause any issues in EU policitcs.

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by FirmwareBurner on Sunday April 27, 2025 @10:16AM (#43812107)
The comment I replied also breached the same rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43805821

Why wasn't it flagged? Thanks for confirming the bias and double standard selective enforcement on HN.

Be snarky against liberal views? Flagged for braking rules. Be snarky against unpopular views? Allowed and often upvoted.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tomhow on Sunday April 27, 2025 @10:41AM (#43812286)
I saw yours first because it was recent, and your earlier comment was the first that started using terms like "crazy" and "mentally deranged". Sure, it's not ok for others to break the guidelines in replies, and I've now responded to the one you pointed out and others. We're not always going to have the time and patience go through a tyrefire of a subthread and scold every single person. Those who start or escalate flamewars need to take more responsibility.

As for bias: I've spent much of the past week and several hours today responding to allegations of bias in the opposite direction. I say to you what I've said to the others: we're not interested in ideology; we're interested in keeping HN a good place for curious conversations.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by FirmwareBurner on Sunday April 27, 2025 @11:23AM (#43812560)
I think people here lack reading skills.

The term mentally deranged I used was at those committing acts of vandalism and terrorism against innocent people's private property, not against someone in the comments here. This is clear to anyone who can read at 8th grade level.

Am I wrong that such vandals are not mentally 100? Am I breaking HN rules with this assessment?

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tomhow on Sunday April 27, 2025 @05:33PM (#43815316)
Yes, language like this is against the guidelines, whether or not it’s about people in this community. Also, in this comment you've broken at least one more guideline, and I can see other comments in your recent history that also break the guidelines, notably these:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43476769

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43475596

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43447800

These are just a sample from the past few weeks but there are plenty more that cross the line and have been correctly flagged by the community for breaking the guidelines.

Some particular guidelines for you to pay attention to are:

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.

Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.

But all the guidelines are important to follow and they apply equally to everyone, no matter their ideological position.

We need you take care to follow them in future if you want to keep commenting on Hacker News.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tomhow on Sunday April 27, 2025 @10:29AM (#43812195)
No personal attacks please, no matter how wrong someone is or you feel they are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tomhow on Sunday April 27, 2025 @10:46AM (#43812328)
Please don't comment like this on Hacker News. It breaks the guidelines badly. Please review them and keep to them in future:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by isoprophlex on Sunday April 27, 2025 @03:51PM (#43814599)
Apologies for my shitty comment; too much doom scrolling and too much crappy 30 year old hiphop. And apologies for writing something that sparked more than a dozen child comments full of divisive crap. Looking back i wasn't really doing the HN comment vibe I'd like to see myself, indeed...
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tomhow on Sunday April 27, 2025 @08:56PM (#43816509)
Many thanks for the reply.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tessierashpool on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:08PM (#43805807)
Having a car that mostly drives itself is the best purchase I’ve ever made.

ok, you can get that with a Hyundai though.

higher-quality, too, yet the Tesla costs more.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by gosub100 on Saturday April 26, 2025 @11:54AM (#43804675)
The fact that so many "climate activists" and environmentalists turned on him confirms my suspicion that they didn't think so highly about the earth or climate change in the first place. They care about partisan politics and their tribe more than the planet.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by josv on Saturday April 26, 2025 @12:44PM (#43805132)
Be wary of confirmation bias. I don’t find it unlikely at all that Tesla owners have sincere environmental goals that could be overshadowed by other concerns. Let’s afford each other the grace of being rational expected utility maximizers.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by zzzeek on Saturday April 26, 2025 @01:37PM (#43805549)
He spent hundreds of millions to get Trump elected, so that now the EPA is gutted, the closing of coal plants has been halted, and federal lands are set to be drilled and mined into oblivion. This is what climate activists correctly opposed and continue to oppose in opposing Musk.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by gosub100 on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:48PM (#43806130)
He made cars that people actually like, that don't emit any CO2. But he doesn't signal from the right tribe, so everything he's done is worthless.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by zzzeek on Sunday April 27, 2025 @02:42PM (#43814145)
Sorry if you cure someone of cancer, then shoot them in the head, you lose credit for the first part
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by Animats on Saturday April 26, 2025 @03:29PM (#43806388)
He was smart. Then he started using drugs. Since then, he's made a lot of mistakes. It's pretty simple.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by mapt on Saturday April 26, 2025 @12:10PM (#43804859)
There's a question about his actual goals in government.

He's an ambitious person. And AI enables a degree of surveillance state that we find it difficult to even begin to imagine. All the logistical difficulties of something like Orwell's 1984, of the Stasi having 1/3 of Berlin on the books as informants against the other 2/3, go away completely. We have more cameras than ever. Every person gets to enjoy the kind of focus that went into tracking down Luigi. DOGE has exfiltrated all our sensitive databases to servers that they control; Every 'Chinese Wall' intended to ensure some kind of separation of concerns has been broken down, almost certainly including various formally classified intelligence-gathering campaigns. You can't necessarily stuff that genie back in the bottle. If somebody wanted to be... not president, but authoritarian leader of a post-democracy, Musk would be well positioned technologically.

It wouldn't be inconceivable to set up an AI to do all the same sort of fraud & identity theft attacks against an individual that for-profit blackhats do, or that a Kiwifarms harassment campaign can do, without much of any actual staffing. Only DOGE starts out with your social security number, your tax records, your drivers' license, license plate reader records, web history, everything. That individual could be a Wall Street Journal editor who wrote something Musk dislikes, or ten thousand Redditors who are making fun of Teslas.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tessierashpool on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:03PM (#43805770)
If somebody wanted to be... not president, but authoritarian leader of a post-democracy, Musk would be well positioned technologically.

of course, that was his very explicit goal. Thiel backed Curtis Yarvin, who came up for the plan for this and called it RAGE. google it, it's all written down. they hoped to put in Bezos or Zuckerberg and have a more efficiently-run dictatorship replacing our democracy. because they didn't understand politics, they got the ketamine addict instead, who renamed RAGE to DOGE so he could also use it to power a crypto pump-and-dump.

*edit: and because it was never a realistic plan. because they didn't understand politics

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by cryptoegorophy on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:22PM (#43805942)
I think we would’ve lived in a different world if Elon didn’t use twitter. We might have actually landed on Mars already.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by more_corn on Saturday April 26, 2025 @05:17PM (#43807298)
Twitter board should have allowed him to back out of the deal when he asked.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by tomhow on Saturday April 26, 2025 @08:49PM (#43808521)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43801711 and marked it offtopic (because it turned into a generic thread that has nothing to do with the topic that was being discussed in the parent comments).
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by motorest on Saturday April 26, 2025 @04:42AM (#43801931)
> (...) why would any highly educated ambitious person want to work for Tesla?

To that dimension I would add ethics as well. It's very hard to justify working for the likes of Tesla when being mindful of the attitude the company and company representatives have with regards to basic issues ranging from workers rights to totalitarianism.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by zem on Saturday April 26, 2025 @04:51AM (#43801963)
I mean, that's one way to get Indians!
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by almosthere on Saturday April 26, 2025 @05:45AM (#43802192)
Well the problem is US wants to be the world's managers. And all we cared about is writing messenger apps. Totally missed the boat on building things, like houses, boats, and most of all new weird things we don't even have a concept for.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by grues-dinner on Saturday April 26, 2025 @06:23AM (#43802372)
Watching nearly the entire software-financial complex burn to the ground when the vaunted "moats" dry up is going to be a hell of a sight. All this AI hype is just going to end up commodifying the very thing that the entire industry is built on: management of processes.

Places that understand that physical production cannot be abstracted forever will prevail.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by motorest on Saturday April 26, 2025 @07:31AM (#43802682)
> Well the problem is US wants to be the world's managers.

I think the problem is more nuanced than that. The US was effectively "the world's managers", in the sense that their economic might, entrepreneur culture, and push for globalization resulted in a corporate structure where the ownership and executive levels were US whereas non-critical business domains reflected the local workforce, whether it was the US or not.

This setup worked great while the US dominated the world's economy and influenced their allies and trading partners to actively engage in globalization.

Now that Trump is pushing for isolationism, of course things change.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by IceHegel on Saturday April 26, 2025 @12:27PM (#43805006)
I would push on how well GDP measures "economic might".

If I were to tell you a country over five years grew its GDP 5% in 1900, that would mean houses and roads and factories and mines and a whole range of things were built.

In 2020, 5% real GDP growth could be an increase in the value of various services. In fact, you might not need to change the physical world at all to achieve that growth.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by Marsymars on Saturday April 26, 2025 @02:51PM (#43806151)
Services are all basically a proxy for the physical world though. Other than things like art and media that people value for their own sake.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by stolsvik on Sunday April 27, 2025 @09:16PM (#43816613)
Google and Facebook?
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by Marsymars on Monday April 28, 2025 @11:56AM (#43822895)
I'm not entirely sure what your question is - are you asking how Google/Facebook are proxies for physical thing?

Google, at its core, provides a service that helps you do physical things more quickly. If I need to replace the cruise control buttons on my car, I could go to the library and source a manual, or I could just search Google.

Facebook marketplace increases the efficiency of trading physical goods.

The Facebook feed is probably most akin to cigarettes.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by __MatrixMan__ on Monday April 28, 2025 @12:09AM (#43817458)
GDP made sense in 1900, back when it took so much labor to keep us all alive and well that we could think of any economic activity as a proxy for progress towards that goal--a goal we could all agree was good. Our concept of value was mostly aligned with our values, so more = better.

Nowadays we're more in conflict, partly just because we can afford to be without risking immediate starvation. Billions get spent on swaying an election this way, more billions get spent on swaying it that way. Dollars spent in both directions count as GDP even though each one has another dollar on the other side pushing in the opposite direction. And it's not just elections, everywhere we're building moats instead of solving problems. It's a very busy way to not go anywhere.

We need to move from scalars to vectors--progress towards some goal--otherwise we're just patting ourselves on the back for working hard to no effect.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by ajmurmann on Saturday April 26, 2025 @11:56AM (#43804697)
The problem is that things like houses and boats became political tokens and/or don't have the same profit scaling as software. Housing is mostly restricted by political opposition that made it very hard or even illegal to build much. Building ships is labor intensive which is expensive here, but AFAIK at least construction of navy ships has become a bargaining ship that gets moved around to support senators rather than being allocated to the most efficient place. In general it also seems like unions in the US are somehow more of a problem than in Europe or at least Germany where I grew up. They seem less powerful here but somehow less reasonable.
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by IceHegel on Saturday April 26, 2025 @12:22PM (#43804963)
Agreed, and this is a somewhat recent phenomenon (see wtf happened in 1971)

For example, we have 100+ drone startups in the United States. But our overall drone production capacity (hammers in Civ) hasn't actually increased. We just have 100 companies buying grey market from Vietnam and Indonesia, many of which came from China originally.

The way the system should work is if you want to do a drone startup, you need to build a drone factory. That's what the money is for.

If the startup fails, maybe the market leader buys the factory for cheap. This is how the automobile industry was in the United States - a bunch of those companies went bust, but the factories were often kept online by the winners.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by hackernoops on Saturday April 26, 2025 @11:29PM (#43809234)
>we
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by Jorge1o1 on Saturday April 26, 2025 @06:34AM (#43802405)
Andrew Yang launched a presidential campaign based on this idea, he wrote a book:

“Smart People Should Build Things”

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by rco8786 on Saturday April 26, 2025 @08:21AM (#43802959)
Can you demonstrate that this misallocation is worse in the US than it is in other countries?
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by bushbaba on Saturday April 26, 2025 @12:13PM (#43804883)
Because compensation?
Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by generalizations on Saturday April 26, 2025 @12:26PM (#43804989)
They go where it's feasible to go. As long as regulation hamstrings industries, it'd be idiotic to build there. Ambitious people just want everyone else to get out of their way so they (I) can build stuff - and they'll go where there's less resistance.

Oh, there's a "tax credit" to make it easier? Sounds like more paperwork & friction. No thanks!

That's one reason Tech is such an attactor. Low barrier to entry.

Re:The $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no ... by godelski on Saturday April 26, 2025 @03:25PM (#43806363)
I think the bigger problem is we filter for conmen. You can become a billionaire for vaporware and are less likely to if you actually ship something.

There are plenty of smart people who are highly passionate about things other than money. The problem is a large portion aren't at top name universities and doing don't have the connections. Problem is, they spent all their time learning their craft and not how to market their ideas.

I disagree that it's just because those jobs pay well. Look at what people are investing in and how it works. We throw tons of money at obviously bad ideas, obvious cons, and anyone that took a semester at Stanford. There are plenty of Bitcoin billionaires! There's tons who have made riches off the VR hype wave before that.

I agree that we put too much focus on finance and the like but I think more importantly we have a system where you can get ultra wealthy for producing vaporware. It's much easier to build hype than build a product. You still get people who become millionaires & billionaires by shipping things, but we created a system where we reward conmen. Ultimately, the con is easier than the actual job.

There's a lot of that tech can do but let's be honest, our industry has capitalized on the boom and bust cycle and accelerated it. We're not the only ones, but we're a big player and it's easier to hold our own community accountable than get others to change.